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 Blackie wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:


Show me this list and I show you, how to kill knight twice... if you speak about top lists from goonhammer etc..

Page 1 of this thread, there are listed the top tournament lists. Pick one of them, your preference, and show me how to guarantee to kill twice a knight in one turn.

I. First few are the most common type right now - ghaz + pimped warboss or megamek + 6-10 MANz i 2 squads, or some other hard hitting dudes. That is pretty easy.

- Any pimped warboss can kill a knight (trait+Killa klaw+da biggest boss) x fight three times. No problem. Did it several times.
- ghazz can kill or seriously damage knight simillar way I believe, not done it or count it yet, but seems to similar to warboss scenario...
- 4 MANz squad + hit them harder + fight twice and knight is dead. Did several times. With 2 squads pretty high chance of pass the charge.
- MANz go usually with warboss or ghazz, so they can adv+ charge = 4”+3,5”+9”= 16,5” 50% chance of charge rising up with more squads or added warboss. So some of them can die due overwatch or whatever and knight is still dead.

II. Seth the Mad' s list is the most complicated, but option 1 is warboss as above, option 2 is sub optimal combination of 3 scrapjets and 3 dragstas. With little bit of luck, knight is dead or seriously damaged.

III. Last is buggy list, same scenario. Moto warboss do it, 6 scrapjets + dragsta do it.

QED

Or do I miss something?

Do note you cant have biggest boss if you have ghaz.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Do note you cant have biggest boss if you have ghaz.

Good note, but warboss with killaklaw and trait was able to knock out the knight even before PA.

Heck, Bike boss even gets 5 attacks base. I think you definitely take one for your Klaw in a Ghaz tide list.

Whats the point of the deffkilla wartrike now that biker boss has speedwaagh too instead of regular waagh?

I find it weird the regular biker boss dont just have normal waagh actually. feels like they compete with each other for no reason, and the deffkilla is losing.

Boss with killaklaw only killed a knight before if said knight was beaten up already or he suicided for the extra attack before he died.
Since "Get Stuck In Ladz" is end of phase, the knight always gets to swing back and a single hit killed the original boss with no chance to survive.

Less of an issue these days though since Slay the Warlord isnt really a problem anymore. Which on a fluff standpoint is annoying but on a gamebalance one im glad because it forced any melee HQs to never bee the warlord or expect to give them Slay points.

Woke up to some new rules from FW. I think battlescribe may be wonky, or FW just loves me.

The kannonwagon saves on 3s instead of 4s? That was a nice surprise. Makes sense but don't see a top option so stuck at t7 though.

Don't get to shoot twice like the Gunwagon but 2d6 shots hitting on 4s is pretty awesome. Dont remember from before but ap-3 feels huge in an ork world of ap-2 rockets. I think I'm going to start bringing one.

How many CP on average are you guys starting your games with? After all my kustom jobs and boss/Mek upgrades I've only got 4 to play with and that feels really low.

Keramory wrote:
Woke up to some new rules from FW. I think battlescribe may be wonky, or FW just loves me.

The kannonwagon saves on 3s instead of 4s? That was a nice surprise. Makes sense but don't see a top option so stuck at t7 though.

Don't get to shoot twice like the Gunwagon but 2d6 shots hitting on 4s is pretty awesome. Dont remember from before but ap-3 feels huge in an ork world of ap-2 rockets. I think I'm going to start bringing one.

It's probably *better* than a regular gun wagon, but worse than the relic Da Bommer Gunwagon.

Better range, flat 3 damage, 3+ save, 4+ to hit. It's smokes the regular gunwagon, badly. It's a bit less durable (well maybe a wash -- -1 T for +1 save), but you need to flatten out Gravis.

If you need a back objective holder, it's a great candidate.

Edit: It also does not require CP to become useful.

My Buggy lists end up with 4-6 a lot, but that's no big deal as you still have 9-11 total and it is not really dependent from CP as Death Skulls.
Other builds have more, especially with green tide i try to have 6-9 at least for those expensive Boy strategems.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
How many CP on average are you guys starting your games with? After all my kustom jobs and boss/Mek upgrades I've only got 4 to play with and that feels really low.

Lowest I've hit was 2. Fortunately, by that time most of my army was pretty independant. Turn 1 I blew 2 of the 3 I had by then (gain 1 per turn remember) and then too ka couple turns of saving to try and be ready to use some later in the game.

Then another game I started with 5 and finished with 4, so it's swings and roundabouts. Generally CP spent in list building makes that unit not need stratagems, except ramming speed for extra reach.

theres a lot of odd trends in the FW rules that make me wonder if its futureproofing for the ork codex and the ork codex is coming up pretty soon.

Ramshackle on everything is odd
Vehicles have a 3+ across the board is odd
Boss +1T +1A +1W is odd, even if hes on a bike

Also the Supakannon isnt Ap3, its AP2 but its D3 unlike its smaller brother Killkannon which is D2.

My mistake... I was confusing it with a tyranid update on FW which is now ap-3 d3. Sucks, I hate ap-2 for giant murder guns.

Yeah, orks dont get AP3/4 shooting.
Unless it can nuke the ork in the process.

(Smashas being the quite literal only exception)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, orks dont get AP3/4 shooting.
Unless it can nuke the ork in the process.

(Smashas being the quite literal only exception)

and SAG and Killsaw

 deffrekka wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
my money is that new "boy" model we know about isnt boyz but something between boyz and nobz. I.e. our "primaris boyz"

They really wont gain anything by releasing new boy sculpts. Unless you are just starting out every ork player has hundreds of boyz, as its super easy to get a ton of them for dirt cheap even today.

So Skarboyz pretty much its not just goffs who have them, but goffs have the highest ratio of them due to their highly aggressive nature.

Ah yes you guys are right, they will make boyz obsolete (Necron player typically didn't field that many warriors, which is why GW didn't feel the urge to make the old ones obsolete by looking small in comparison to the new).

But I know myself, if GW releases new "Bigger" boyz then I will do everything to not field the old ugly (in comparison) kit. I think I won't be buying any more boyz for now.
Thanks and sorry for having digressed from tactics

 Tomsug wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, orks dont get AP3/4 shooting.

Killsaw

Killsaw Lobba confirmed?

 Lysit wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, orks dont get AP3/4 shooting.

Killsaw

Killsaw Lobba confirmed?

Congrats, you just gave me an idea for smashagun conversions. Big ass buzzsaw launchers.

i mean Shuriken cannons are a thing why not Buzzsaw kannons?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i mean Shuriken cannons are a thing why not Buzzsaw kannons?

Imagine if it was grot piloted too, I'd love to see the Goblin Doom Diver idea revived in model form in 40k. The closest we ever had to that was the grot bomma.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i mean Shuriken cannons are a thing why not Buzzsaw kannons?

Imagine if it was grot piloted too, I'd love to see the Goblin Doom Diver idea revived in model form in 40k. The closest we ever had to that was the grot bomma.

Pretty much just think those monowheeled vehicles from Starwars. Except it's a giant buzzsaw with a tiny grot inside the centre. Maybe with explosives attached to the back of the seat where he can't see them.

Today, I' ve given a try to new Big Trakk and I like it.

First, it looks super cool

Second, little bit more of move and wounds, little bit of mortal wounds on charge and A6 5/0/1 to kill the last guardsman for 85 points make a very decent mix and upgrade to trukk, to shift it from ... well... trukk ... to something more mature.

Low profile of the models helps a lot to hide it. Wide and long solid body blocks LOS to your grots or boyz +/- and obstruct in the move of opponent units very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ou yeh, and my smashaguns finely hit something. In 2 turns they performed like “3 from 6 smg, each made 5 hits form D3 shots, kills 5 guardsman because you need to kill them to gain the objective” after abiut 5 games of do nothing. .... argh..

Honestly, a I like this game. Full of surprise. And I like 9th. Much more interesting than 8th.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793873.page

Just a quick link to my army lists for any feedback. Thanks

 Tiberius501 wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793873.page

Just a quick link to my army lists for any feedback. Thanks

Commented on the thread.


Has anyone tried using battlewagon + trukk toget a horde across the battlefield fast? I was lamenting how boys improve over 20 models, but can't transport that many, but then I realised that if you take a Battlewagon with a trukk alongside, you can have 30 models disembark, move forward, mob-up and charge for a turn 2 30-boy charge without needing 9" on the roll.

I'm considering building a core f my next list around 2 wagons full of boys, 3 trukks full of boys, and then as many distraction carnifexen as I can fit in to try and keep them alive. wagon + trukk will rol lforawrd, second wagon + 2 trukks will try to circle around for a turn 3 charge from behind to contest home objectives and get linebreaker.

Thinking best distraction carnifex will be a bikerboss + gorkanaught to get the second wagon charging turn 1, ready to move around, and the gorkanaught charging as well thanks to the boss. Hopefully all guns will turn to the big scary gorkanaught and then 60 boys can fall on them in 2 waves. Thoughts?

 Tomsug wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:


Show me this list and I show you, how to kill knight twice... if you speak about top lists from goonhammer etc..

Page 1 of this thread, there are listed the top tournament lists. Pick one of them, your preference, and show me how to guarantee to kill twice a knight in one turn.

I. First few are the most common type right now - ghaz + pimped warboss or megamek + 6-10 MANz i 2 squads, or some other hard hitting dudes. That is pretty easy.

- Any pimped warboss can kill a knight (trait+Killa klaw+da biggest boss) x fight three times. No problem. Did it several times.
- ghazz can kill or seriously damage knight simillar way I believe, not done it or count it yet, but seems to similar to warboss scenario...
- 4 MANz squad + hit them harder + fight twice and knight is dead. Did several times. With 2 squads pretty high chance of pass the charge.
- MANz go usually with warboss or ghazz, so they can adv+ charge = 4”+3,5”+9”= 16,5” 50% chance of charge rising up with more squads or added warboss. So some of them can die due overwatch or whatever and knight is still dead.

II. Seth the Mad' s list is the most complicated, but option 1 is warboss as above, option 2 is sub optimal combination of 3 scrapjets and 3 dragstas. With little bit of luck, knight is dead or seriously damaged.

III. Last is buggy list, same scenario. Moto warboss do it, 6 scrapjets + dragsta do it.

QED

Or do I miss something?

Oh, ok you're just theoryhammering, now I get it. If you put it this way I can agree with you.

5 deepstriking Meganobz buffed with Hit the Harder is the bread and butter of my lists, but realistically they won't be able to charge the most juicy target the turn they show up. There's also the chance of failing the charge, which isn't low unless they are Evil Sunz. Warboss or Ghaz can absolutely do the trick, but again the opponent won't let them charge his more valuable model in turn 1. Ghaz won't probably charge something that big before turn 3, and chances that he dies before even trying are pretty high.

6 scrapjets + SJD don't have the math to kill a night with firepower although they'd go very close. No chance of doing it twice in 1 turn though.

I was talking about guaranteed results, a warboss with all the buffs CAN 1-shot a knight, but only a fool would allow the ork player to do it in turn 1. For being able to 1-shot a knight I mean something like the 8th combo with Bad Moons tankbustas: 15+6 bomb squigs into Tellyporta + More Dakka + Showing Off. That's a guaranteed (over)killed knight the moment they pop up.

Charging a knight in turn 1 is really theoryhammer unless you're playing against someone that has little experience in the game. Overkilling a knight (like killing it twice) is also very theoryhammering, typically there's really no need to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, orks dont get AP3/4 shooting.
Unless it can nuke the ork in the process.

(Smashas being the quite literal only exception)

Or Boomboyz!!

Evil sunz stompa with the evil sunz psychic power to reroll all misses combined with more dakka will totally kill a knight t1. Equally a full squad of tankbustas with bomb squigs with more dakka will kill a knight and then some (especially if you're deathskulls and you use thier trait to reroll all wounds)

A slightly related question; after successfully rolling to fire the supa-gatler a second (or third time) do I have to shoot at the original target or do I get to nominate a new target (each time)? I know the guard grinding advance specifies it.

CaptainO wrote:
Evil sunz stompa with the evil sunz psychic power to reroll all misses combined with more dakka will totally kill a knight t1. Equally a full squad of tankbustas with bomb squigs with more dakka will kill a knight and then some (especially if you're deathskulls and you use thier trait to reroll all wounds)

A slightly related question; after successfully rolling to fire the supa-gatler a second (or third time) do I have to shoot at the original target or do I get to nominate a new target (each time)? I know the guard grinding advance specifies it.

I am seriously considering a tricked-out kustom stompa with all shooting for after lockdown 2 (the sequel), as it effectively doesn't degrade (no! not lower strength, move and attacks on my long-ranged gun platform! please!), and am toying between bad moons (because rerolling 1's every turn on that many shots is awesome) and Evil suns (purely for the visions rerolls). I'm also leaning for snakebites for 6+++, which would possibly give me one more turn of shooting, which is also awesome.

Evil suns does have the advantage that, whilst it won't benefit from klan traits, the weirdboy can still cast visions on it. Bad moons, deffskulls, snakebites - all of these need 2 more lords of war to make them work.

That said, at 850pts with every gun, you could feasibly have 2 kustom stompas and a kill tank in a 2k game, with points for a patrol detachment to take objectives. two kustm stompas offloading on the enemy will certainly make an impact...

Blackie - see, we both speaking about something else. My “test” is simple math to check if I have enough of the right dakka. And it´ s pure math. Does the list have enough power to kill in one (not first!) exemplary target twice? How to do it and in what turn is another more complex layer.

Example from my old 8th list. I found I need some heavy foots on ground. MANz seemed to be a solid option. I checked via such test their possibilites - typical situation in those timesfor me was to face landrider, bunch of termies, knight crusader size. This helps me to fir the size of the the squad, loadout etc. Than I add the second layer of how to use them and result was Evil Sunz detachement with 2 squads per 4MANz with PK and KS and motowarboss. One squad footsloging forward in cover, second in telyporta and warboss sligtly in between, etc etc.

The gun platform stompa has legs! I'm running one gun platform stompa as an super heavy auxiliary detachment now.

Evil sunz Rerolls everything with more dakka is insane. Like kill a contemptor invictor and squad of inceptors in one go with shots to spare (I could have killed another squad of intersessors if I chose my shots better) I paid 5cp to put it in reserve. Waited till he'd dropped his anti tank and brought it in. (even with terrain hes so big he can see loads of correctly placed).

I used a weird boy with the +1 to cast relic to cast shadows in the smoke (he got +3 to cast for being near 30 Ork models (3× 10 trukk boys with another squad of 10 boys in reserve guaranteed at least 30 bods) with a cp to reroll meant it went off(causing 3 wounds to me for perils ,but it still went off).

Reroll everything with exploding 5s is crazy. Im doing the maths and it works out at almost 8 hits for every 10 shots so most weapons.

It's a great source of ap-3 and -4 too. I do start the game with 1cp though

CaptainO wrote:

I used a weird boy with the +1 to cast relic to cast shadows in the smoke (he got +3 to cast for being near 30 Ork models (3× 10 trukk boys with another squad of 10 boys in reserve guaranteed at least 30 bods) with a cp to reroll meant it went off(causing 3 wounds to me for perils ,but it still went off).

Just FYI, this relic does not work with <CLAN> psychic powers.

It very specifically buffs Power of the Waaaagh psychic powers, which none of the Saga powers are.

It really sucks, because it would make splashing in stuff like Maniacal Seizures much easier for mech Deathskull lists which would be amazing. 7 cast is tough enough without bonuses. 9 cast is not gonna happen.