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tulun wrote:
I suppose if your measuring stick is solely whether if something can 6-0 a tournament right now... Don't bring Orks period.

Orks do not have a serious competitive build right now. I hope people here are skeptical that Goff Tide is actually good. Like does anyone seriously think Orks could top 4 LVO in this meta?

Might as well field 3 giant tanks with 90 boys and have a raucous good time.

On the contrary, I think orkz have a decent chance to 6-0 and a good chance at LVO if the meta doesn't change much between now and then. The fact remains that while ork boyz aren't that impressive right now, they do pack a decent amount of durability and in CC can at least hold their own when buffed with S5 with ghaz nearby. So long as you can reign in our orky tendencies to want to get "stukk in" and sit your happy green butt on objectives you have a good chance of winning. I always recommend keeping some CP around for Green tide though. I have won so many games because a mob of 3 boyz remaining turned into 30

Goonhammer ranks orks as tier 2:
https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-competitive-tier-list-november-2020/

Goonhammer wrote:Like Daemons, Orks massively outperformed expectations to get up to tier 2 last time, and I did genuinely wonder if I might still be underrating them at that point. As it turns out, tier 2 is the right spot for them. Two main builds continue to be popular, with Goff hordes (as favoured by our own Shane Watts) and Deathskull vehicle/buggy spam both able to take players to the top, and more recently a hybrid build combining elements of both has also seen success. Most builds are making use of the monster that is Ghazghkull, with his ability to take over the flow of melee for a few turns being exceptionally valuable. Orks also have some reasonably interesting looking toys coming out of the Imperial Armour Compendium, including the return of the Warboss on Warbike, so once players manage to get their hands on some of these less common models they might shake things up a bit.

What keeps Orks out of the top tier is that they perpetually run the risk of slamming into the perfect counter. Horde lists can slam face-first into a force wth the shooting to hose them off the table, while the vehicle lists have a tougher time dealing with Rites of War powered Marine builds than those that came before. Orks remain a strong faction, and one that will rack up overwhelming victories at a higher rate than some of those above it, but are just short of the consistency they need to punch above this spot.

Rob: Orks tended to have one of the larger Go First Win Rate differentials of the factions we looked at, winning 17% more of their games going first than second. They appear to have good matchups against Custodes, Space Wolves, and Adeptus Mechanicus armies.

I'd say their assessment is pretty accurate. The big caveat being that simply playing Orks and copying their lists will not give you that tier 2 feeling like playing marines will, because similar to many of the other xenos factions, any mistakes you make will be very punishing unlike SM where you have built-in layers of rules to minimize losses/mistakes. I've said this earlier but you can really tell the difference between a dedicated Ork player and someone that just has an Ork army on the side that they play once in a while. It will significantly harder for FoTM people to take advantage of the current competitive level of Orks than it will be for more cost-efficient and newbie-friendly armies.

wait orks have a GOOD matchup against admech?

ive never faced admech as my orks but i also have admech. I simply compared the two and i shudder at thinking of my orks facing them.

That's great, but that doesn't bode well for us in the next codex update.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
wait orks have a GOOD matchup against admech?

ive never faced admech as my orks but i also have admech. I simply compared the two and i shudder at thinking of my orks facing them.

I faced them once, it was a hard slog and he didn't even have the scary stuff. Scraped a win, but only just. It was a great game

 Vineheart01 wrote:
wait orks have a GOOD matchup against admech?

ive never faced admech as my orks but i also have admech. I simply compared the two and i shudder at thinking of my orks facing them.

Keep in mind, you facing off against your buddies Admech is not going to be representative of the tournament meta.

Orks win by surprising their opponent. If they come even half assedly prepared, I would wager Admech tables you. Hell, Admech are tabling space marines, they can table Orks no problem.

Hey guys.

What Klan would you use for a warboss on warbike?

Would you keep him Goff simply for melee fighting by charging vehicles in to enemies (like if you paired him up with Buzzgob or something for +1 to hit) or would you use him in a deathskulls army?

Or something else?

Warboss on bike kinda works with any of the major 3 factions

Deathskullz: gets a reroll to wound roll and offers a 6++ if you bring multiples, i.e. non-biggest bosses

Evil Sunz: Fasta is alwayz betta

Goffs: Exploding 6s of course.

Problem with Goffs is i dont see why you'd run Goff without Ghaz, and you cant use Biggest Boss with Ghaz around. So he'd hit hard but have no invul at all.

imo none of them are overly powerful compared to the other for him. Extremely minor differences in the end.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Warboss on bike kinda works with any of the major 3 factions

Deathskullz: gets a reroll to wound roll and offers a 6++ if you bring multiples, i.e. non-biggest bosses

Evil Sunz: Fasta is alwayz betta

Goffs: Exploding 6s of course.

Problem with Goffs is i dont see why you'd run Goff without Ghaz, and you cant use Biggest Boss with Ghaz around. So he'd hit hard but have no invul at all.

imo none of them are overly powerful compared to the other for him. Extremely minor differences in the end.

The reason i said Goff was mainly for a Buzzgob mech army, where he will be giving them charge as he was changed to allow charges from infantry to vehicles and bikers.

So maybe a Goff mech army with a warboss on warbike for charging those Mega-Dreads or something?.

A side question, is Evil Sunz still competitive? it seems most lists favor either Goff or Deathskulls, and a mech based army would favor Deathskulls i think. Deathskulls give an over all defence but also more damage. The evil sunz only really give.. speed + visions in the smoke, but i feel like many vehicles can reach an enemy in T1 already if you advance and charge (with warboss on warbike). it seems like evil sunz in that case is obsolete.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
wait orks have a GOOD matchup against admech?

ive never faced admech as my orks but i also have admech. I simply compared the two and i shudder at thinking of my orks facing them.

Keep in mind, you facing off against your buddies Admech is not going to be representative of the tournament meta.

Orks win by surprising their opponent. If they come even half assedly prepared, I would wager Admech tables you. Hell, Admech are tabling space marines, they can table Orks no problem.

yep, pretty much this. In a tournament setting, Orkz kick the hell out of Admech since the Mech player is bringing a lot of weapons to deal with Space Marines where as the ork is playing to the mission and camping objectives. Its hard to shift 30 boyz off an objective when your best anti-horde weapon is a handful of stubbers.

Orkz are doing great in the tournament scene thanks to this, but if you play against a friend who knows you are bringing orkz....stand the Feth by for a shellacking. With that said, the last time I played against Ad mech was in 8th and I managed to table him Turn 2 because my SSAG wiped out his army almost by itself

I honestly could see you doing something silly even in Goffs.

Ghaz + 2 biker bosses.

Biker bosses both get base 5 attacks (as much as the old DA Biggest Boss), and you can gear them up like this:

1) Warlord, Brutal but Kunnin', Kill Saw, Da Lucky Stick. flat 3, re-roll all hits and wounds, exploding 6s, hit on 2s.

2) Da Killa Klaw. Usual.

So you have 2 incredible fast missiles geared up to smash. The Goff relic is actually incredible, and we now have an Uber good platform to throw it on. If you wanted to scrimp points, you could do it on a walking one too, and you get your 5th attack via Ghaz.

tulun wrote:
I honestly could see you doing something silly even in Goffs.

Ghaz + 2 biker bosses.

Biker bosses both get base 5 attacks (as much as the old DA Biggest Boss), and you can gear them up like this:

1) Warlord, Brutal but Kunnin', Kill Saw, Da Lucky Stick. flat 3, re-roll all hits and wounds, exploding 6s, hit on 2s.

2) Da Killa Klaw. Usual.

So you have 2 incredible fast missiles geared up to smash. The Goff relic is actually incredible, and we now have an Uber good platform to throw it on. If you wanted to scrimp points, you could do it on a walking one too, and you get your 5th attack via Ghaz.

I think this is the closest to hero-hammer we'll ever get in our army, and I love it.

I could see a tanky equivalent to this being one where you have 2 WBoB, without Ghaz where you give one Da Biggest Boss for a 4+ invuln while the other takes the Bad Moon Warlord trait to have another 4+ invuln. Probably not worth it since it loses out on a lot of killiness comparatively, but who knows?

One thing I'm looking forward to in our 9th ed book is our equivalent of "chapter command" (Council of WAAAGH!?) that SM have, since I'd love to see Warlord, Mad Dok, Mek Boss and Warphead all as payable upgrades rather than CP based ones.

I just hope when the codex drops, that the Big Trakk somehow gets changed to dedicated transport. It annoys me now that it lost all those options for Supa Scorcha and all that, that its still treated as something more than a transport, which tis clearly not. If it could actually use a ton of different weapons as it used to, then sure i get it, it should be heavy support. But now you might as well go battlewagon if you want something more than a transport.

Its just a good more duable transport that drives faster. If its because it can wield a Supa Kannon, then remove the Supa kannon from its weapons list, because why would you even use that weapon on a Big Trakk anyway.

It should be dedicated transport along side the regular Trukk, so it doesnt take up precious heavy support slots.


...

And the Chinork.

Beardedragon wrote:
I just hope when the codex drops, that the Big Trakk somehow gets changed to dedicated transport. It annoys me now that it lost all those options for Supa Scorcha and all that, that its still treated as something more than a transport, which tis clearly not. If it could actually use a ton of different weapons as it used to, then sure i get it, it should be heavy support. But now you might as well go battlewagon if you want something more than a transport.

Its just a good more duable transport that drives faster. If its because it can wield a Supa Kannon, then remove the Supa kannon from its weapons list, because why would you even use that weapon on a Big Trakk anyway.

It should be dedicated transport along side the regular Trukk, so it doesnt take up precious heavy support slots.


...

And the Chinork.

Well, unfortunately, if 8th ed has taught us anything, they're unlikely to change anything substantial in the FW index for basically the entire edition outside of a few rules erratas/FAQ's for some of the more obvious rules errors. The Chinork especially since Legends are basically never touched again after their initial release. I agree that the Big Trakk should have been dedicated transport, and then a variant of the big trakk being heavy support with options for a heavy weapon like the supakannon.

For not having our codex yet we are in a decent spot..
We have a viable horde list and viable buggy spam list..

We have decent HQs and some key units that will improve other list builds if the codex improves thier point efficiencies.

Buzzgrob wants to make dread lists viable, mega dread wants to be viable... Basic dreads and nauts just need to be a bit better point efficiency and I’m disappointed the Meka dread lost the Kff.

Burnerbomber and wazbom, wagons, and mega armor boyz all want to be strong..

Biker lists got a small boost from the biker boss and really want to be better too..

I’m not so sure bikers are going to be great this edition but I’m liking how we look so far. I only hope we aren’t to far off on a new codex.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Warboss on bike kinda works with any of the major 3 factions

Deathskullz: gets a reroll to wound roll and offers a 6++ if you bring multiples, i.e. non-biggest bosses

Evil Sunz: Fasta is alwayz betta

Goffs: Exploding 6s of course.

Problem with Goffs is i dont see why you'd run Goff without Ghaz, and you cant use Biggest Boss with Ghaz around. So he'd hit hard but have no invul at all.

imo none of them are overly powerful compared to the other for him. Extremely minor differences in the end.

The reason i said Goff was mainly for a Buzzgob mech army, where he will be giving them charge as he was changed to allow charges from infantry to vehicles and bikers.

So maybe a Goff mech army with a warboss on warbike for charging those Mega-Dreads or something?.

A side question, is Evil Sunz still competitive? it seems most lists favor either Goff or Deathskulls, and a mech based army would favor Deathskulls i think. Deathskulls give an over all defence but also more damage. The evil sunz only really give.. speed + visions in the smoke, but i feel like many vehicles can reach an enemy in T1 already if you advance and charge (with warboss on warbike). it seems like evil sunz in that case is obsolete.

I still think Evil Sunz are competitive. The movement phase is one of the most important phases of the game and moving those extra 2-3" with advancing could mean you hold that objective or not. You also pen the opponent further into their deployment. An Evil Sunz boy is just as durable as a Goff boy and just as killy as a Deathskulls. They make charges more reliably from deepstrike and from footsloggin, have an extremely useful strat, put more accurate shots out on the advance and have a great psychic power with Visions in the Smoke.

What makes Deathskulls stronger is the Obsec on all Infantry and the 6++. I dont value the reroll 1 hit 1 wound 1 damage as much. Your doing it on a single shot here and there with most of our damage being flat 2-3.

But Evil Sunz are still a contender. I've seen people lost games because they needed 1 more on a advance roll to claim a point or make a crucial charge that would of allowed for the unit to sweep an objective or two. You cant just shove aside the movement Evil Sunz provide.

So, I had my game against the murder clows yesterday and it was brutal in every way.

My list:

We were playing Sweep and Clear, my secondaries were linebreaker, assassinate and the mission secondary (3VP for holding mid or enemy deployment zone objective at the end of your turn, 5VP for both)
My opponent had grind hem down, assassinate and linebreaker.

It was completely brutal. He went first and his bikes alone killed more than 40 boyz in the first turn, luckily spread across mobs. Thrakka rolled a six for advance, followed by a 9" charge and managed to catch a unit of bikes in turn one that were trying to hold an objective and wiped them out, a unit of boyz connected with a transport, another just barely got hold of another unit of bikes and killed only two due to not getting enough boyz into engagement range. In turn two one mob had to take a moral test at 3 models left (who had managed to kill the entire troupe that charged their mob) and luckily Thrakka only did one mortal wound to them, allowing me to tide them next turn, essentially winning me the game.

I jumped the MANz turn 1 because there was no one going for the center objective they were supposed to protect and had them attack the deployment zone objective instead. In turn 3 they were wiped out by a troupe with fusion guns, but not after killing a voidreaver. The probably just aren't the best unit to have against harlequins. I wish I had shootas or rokkits on them though, they spent too much time doing nothing.

The weird boy was fine for jumping and warpath, sadly he got killed by a death jester that sniped him in turn 2.

The painboy did next to nothing for the boyz, but his medi-squig healed Thrakka for 3 wounds twice. Unsure whether that alone is worth it.

The MA mek was a star on his own - he held the center objective for four turns before dying, gaining me 9 secondary and 5 primary VP. He also crushed two star weavers in combat, trying to contest the objective.

Tank bustas were great despite all the -1 to hit flying around and the bomb squigs blew up a troupe master. For assassinate.

The storm boyz didn't do too much because we were playing on TTS and the terrain was weird - a beautiful ork landscape, but there was almost no area terrain and no obscuring. I can see why people use kommandoz instead though, a unit of 5 goff orks definitely has the potential to kill small units, and the extra save and to wound helps with that job, while the extra movement rarely does. It's worth noting that I got 4 linebreaker and 5 primary VP because of the stormboyz though. With better terrain, it might have been more.

The burna bommer was a dud... kind of? Turn one my opponent screened perfectly, with me either having to opt out of a bombing run and hit two bikes or only hit two transports. Instead I opted to just shoot his guns. The harlequins failed to melta it and I then flew it off the board. It returned turn 3 without doing much, and bombed a troup and killed a death jester in T4, sealing the deal. My opponent did comment that its presence forced him into the castle that enabled Thrakka to charge the bikes in T1, so it's hard to assess whether it was worth the points or not. Ironically, it did kill its points worth of models by shooting and bombing.

My opponent was tabled by the end of my fighting phase in T4 with the tided mob re-entering the fray and wiping out the last unit of bikes, a troupe and a transport.

The game ended with 64:15
Primary: 30
Linebreaker: 4
Assassinate: 15
Mission: 15
It is worth noting that until my turn 3 not a single primary VP was scored and he didn't get a single point for grind them down. Due to the small deployment zones and almost no LoS blocking, linebreaker was quite hard to score.

So, to the question whether Thrakka tide is powerful or just counter meta? Definitely powerful. Harlequins had no real answer to the wrekkin' ball that was Thrakka and scarboyz did insane amounts of damage when near him, even if you only had a few left. Even without Thrakka, the extra point of strength and exploding sixes made them really dangerous to everything on the board. The clowns weren't lacking for anti-infantry either, when the haywire cannons with max shots due to blast started shooting, I was having flashbacks to 7th edition scatterbikes. The new moral rules really favor this kind of army a lot, in 8th at least two mobs would have imploded to moral along the way.
I would have liked a bit more shooting in my list, I might drop the burna bommer for that. I might also just be spoiled from playing too much buggies and DG

In general, despite the point balance looking so damning, with one or two different decisions and a bit more luck on critical rolls, the game could easily have flipped the other way. The speed of harlequins and their ability to ignore much of what the opponents do to control the enemy is quite dangerous.

What kind of shooting do you have in mind? Like switch the MANz to PK+ shoota or bunch of smashagunz?

How do you screen your deploy with such list? One mob of boyz holds the objective?

 Tomsug wrote:
What kind of shooting do you have in mind? Like switch the MANz to PK+ shoota or bunch of smashagunz?

MANz with PK and maybe even rokkits, though that might need some testing. I really need to run the list against marines before deciding on that.
For shooting, smasha guns would probably a good choice as they clould remain on the home objective. I might also try something insane like SJD, because I feel this list could need some highly mobile thing jumping to wherever. A wazbomm might also be a decent idea, since I felt like I really could have used a KFF on the second flank.

How do you screen your deploy with such list? One mob of boyz holds the objective?

I... just didn't? There was a huge wall of orks between it and the harlequins, and I was sure that I could threaten at least 3 objectives and boyz always outnumber clowns. Due to my opponent castling up to deny my burna bommer, I actually got to threaten four objectives during turn 1, forcing him to spread his small army all over the table.
I pretty much banked on my tank bustas and green tide to clear out anything that would take the bait. That gamble did pay off though, and ultimately led to the harlequin player getting tabled.

In general the army feels really weird to play when you compare it to previous edition's horde. Instead of running at the enemy at full speed and hoping to connect, you sit mobs of boyz onto objectives and then see what your opponent is going to do about it. If they get too close, you charge them with Thrakka, skarboyz and the goff culture cranking their killing power to eleven, if they don't you just take all the primary points home and watch as they struggle to catch up.
It's a good weird though, since the army is no longer as one-dimensional as ork hordes used to be.

I dont know if codexes will release with this, but i hope that when the Ork Codex drops there will be faction specific secondaries to take. I feel like there arent enough fighting secondaries to deal with. It feels weird that an ork player should deploy a scrambler for instance, i mean, im an ork player, i should be attacking and killing. It would also be nice if there was a secondary that required us to kill elite armies rather than grind them down or thin their ranks. Like a, Thin their ranks but for +2 wounds and more that we hordes could benefit from. Or pull off 50 attacks in a round or something.

I miss the old objectives of charging 3 times and such, that made sense for us.

Elite armies are too comfortable in this edition, it shouldnt be like that. Elite armies have it easy going for secondaries against hordes, where as vice versa its hard to pick secondaries i feel like, against elites

Ok, interesting. Your suggestions tend to my ideas about goff tide list.

Six SMG in the back, and 3xkommandos and large blob of tankbustas in second deathskulls detachement to get Wreckers and max shooting from deepstrike and 4 obsec units to beat enemy obsec

Or 3xkommandos and 2x5 MANz with PK in second Evil Sunz detachement to have a chance to charge MANz from DS.

I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardragon - call it Deploy Fungus and imagine it like seeding ork gems and it makes sence!

 Tomsug wrote:
Ok, interesting. Your suggestions tend to my ideas about goff tide list.

Six SMG in the back, and 3xkommandos and large blob of tankbustas in second deathskulls detachement to get Wreckers and max shooting from deepstrike and 4 obsec units to beat enemy obsec

Or 3xkommandos and 2x5 MANz with PK in second Evil Sunz detachement to have a chance to charge MANz from DS.

I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.

Or you get a bad moon patrol for the TBs (shoot twice strat), because you will not have many points for it anyway, once you factor in the TBs

 Tomsug wrote:
I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.

Well, I figured if he tried to get linebreaker, I would have two units waiting to be killed by my reserves. 4VP was a fairly good trade for half a unit of bikers and a transport IMO.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.

Well, I figured if he tried to get linebreaker, I would have two units waiting to be killed by my reserves. 4VP was a fairly good trade for half a unit of bikers and a transport IMO.

Could be 10 VP for scramblers easier....

I don't think he could have afforded parking one of his troupes for scramblers though, but as I said before, this was my first game with that archetype.

I just think that you don't need to protect your deployment zone by default, but instead can use it as bait to draw away enemy units from your boyz. Some times giving up a few VP in order to massively improve your board position is simply worth it.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think he could have afforded parking one of his troupes for scramblers though, but as I said before, this was my first game with that archetype.

I just think that you don't need to protect your deployment zone by default, but instead can use it as bait to draw away enemy units from your boyz. Some times giving up a few VP in order to massively improve your board position is simply worth it.

Definitely an option to think about....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I haven' t playes horde list yet, but think about it a lot, so your report is pretty valuable for me, thanks.

But the part of the question hidden in the previous question remain untouched - what do you use or consider to use for holding your home objective? Or two in some missions?

I don't know

I mean, planning to hold only the opponents objectives is a decent idea in and of itself. Yeah some matchups may need you to leave grots or Kommandos in the back, but if you cant push into the middle or back things may be going awry anyway.

That aside i'm fond of a trukk with shootaboyz as my backfield holder these days.

It's much better if that backfield is contributing, though. 10 Shoota boys in a trukk isn't horribly expensive, but that can get you nearly 4 mek guns, or put you close to a cannon wagon, both of which contribute and probably hold your backfield better.

Meanwhile, 10 obsec bodies could potentially help contest the midboard.