Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, I've found it's kind of tough to see what I should leave behind in my deployment zone in most army lists I use. I usually end up having one of my kommandos in reserve showing up on my home objectives if I'm being stretched thin or using Mek Gunz/Trukk Boyz. I feel like Mek Gunz usually don't have the best LoS opportunities on my tables when they're holding home objectives and thus waste their firepower. Meanwhile Trukk Boyz are pretty solid but at the same time rather expensive when you factor both the transport and them together. I kinda wish grots filled the backfield objective holder role better like they used to, but at their price point you're always better off with something else.

It gets a bit more complicated too.

How exposed are your backfield objectives? Like, the TT Titans finally released their terrain video, and they basically almost always have a pretty defensible home objective (at least for 1) -- IE, it's hiding behind obscuring terrain.

If so, the answer to that is probably 10 grots, assuming your opponent has no indirect.

If it's exposed to shooting lanes? The answer is something that wants to sit there and shoot, or a unit that can hold and possibly counter charge the midboard as a threat.

I don't think trukk boys appeals to either of those things. You could limp wounded buggies back to your backfield, but you also risk them dying.

I mean, don't get me wrong there are cheaper options. But they are an "okay" unit that's fairly versatile.

Your opponent doesn't have deep strike? You can move them around to grab things while the rest of your army holds their attention.

Your opponent does? Then you have some alphastrike protection from the trukk. If your opponent wiffs and it lives past that strike then you can use the trukk to bodyblock and annoy them.

And in my experience the trukk with shootaboyz is often one of the last units left. In the games where I used it I found it was one of the last units and frequently were pivotal in those last few turns. Though YMMV of course.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, I've found it's kind of tough to see what I should leave behind in my deployment zone in most army lists I use. I usually end up having one of my kommandos in reserve showing up on my home objectives if I'm being stretched thin or using Mek Gunz/Trukk Boyz. I feel like Mek Gunz usually don't have the best LoS opportunities on my tables when they're holding home objectives and thus waste their firepower. Meanwhile Trukk Boyz are pretty solid but at the same time rather expensive when you factor both the transport and them together. I kinda wish grots filled the backfield objective holder role better like they used to, but at their price point you're always better off with something else.

Well Smasha Gunz are good obj holders even if they don't have appropriate LoS. They cost 40ppm, cheaper than gretchins and fairly more resilient. A single battery of 4-6 of them has a footprint that is large enough to potentially hold two objectives in the ork deployment zone. A single deffkopta could do the job, but typically is not that easy to have the FA slots available.

Trukk boyz are way worse than mek gunz for that job IMHO. Worse shooting, less resilient and a significant investment in points.

I mostly use Smasha Gunz and Da Boomer for home objectives, eventually Kommandos and Meganobz that typically start from the reserves if they really need to be there but I prefer to deplyoy them in the enemy zone for other uses.

SMG are great home objectives grabers and home deploy screeners, because they cost just 40p peace and shoot a long range. But blocking a LOS deprive them a lot. Deploy them in 3 small units to have bigger distances between them.

I don' t see the point in trukkboyz. 150p wasted to sitting in the backfield.

I don' t see the point in kannonwagen or da boomer. Almost 200p sitting in the backfield and strugling to move for better LOS? But better than truckboyz.

I see some potential in KBB, because 36” Autocannon is almost long range, burnas to burn down the deepstriking cheap stuff and high mobility to change the plans.

Grots can do it and you can use Kommandos for something more creative.

However, the crucial question is, do we really need it? Because you can get 45VP for primaries pretty fast, not all armies have a DS units and something will be stucked in your deploy in T2 anyhow. And if you have a game plan based on attacking opponents objectives, well who cares about one home objective.

You do realize the kannonwagon moves as fast as the KBB, right? At least in its top bracket.

It's just a battlewagon. Move 12". It'll have about as much issue as a KBB in getting line of sight.

Regardless of which, yeah, I think Orks have plenty of great backline objective holders. I'd just prefer mine to actually have a shot at dealing damage, hence why I think I'd be bearish on Trukk Boys in any actually competitive game.

Edit: Also, at 170 w/ Supa Kannon and 3 big shootas, it's only 15 more points than the Trukk Boy squad (10 boys, nob w/ klaw or saw, trukk = 155).

it doesnt have objective secure though in case infantry or pesky custodies jump at the point.

Saying the Kannonwagon is pointless is weird.
its 170pts for a T7 16W 3+ save fast tank that doesnt care about being stationary at all with a near-table long range deadly gun (note its bigshootas are free atm)

Sure, it wont have total coverage if you have proper terrain as nothing in the backfield should be able to hit literally anything it wants to. 12" movement is a lot to shift around those blockers though, unless something is hugging a wall you can probably find an angle you can tag it with.
It also does 3 damage, not 2 like the gunwagon booma does and hits on 4s with that kannon. Thats a HUGE difference, even if its still AP2

Its going to cause issues for anyone that doesnt try to take it down. And its actually got pretty strong defenses against weapons that CAN reach it, pretty easy for it to sit in trees and fire, and its sitting so far back that if something deepstrikes for it theyre probably not gonna do much the rest of the game afterword.

Kannonwagons are dirty now. Considering i have 2 kromlech Tigerwagons i am now toying around with running 2 kannonwagons on opposite edges of my deployment.

edit: Also it still is opentopped with a small capacity. It can still carry something, like a small squad of lootas for extra 48" dakka or something.

tulun wrote:
You do realize the kannonwagon moves as fast as the KBB, right? At least in its top bracket.

It's just a battlewagon. Move 12". It'll have about as much issue as a KBB in getting line of sight.

Regardless of which, yeah, I think Orks have plenty of great backline objective holders. I'd just prefer mine to actually have a shot at dealing damage, hence why I think I'd be bearish on Trukk Boys in any actually competitive game.

Edit: Also, at 170 w/ Supa Kannon and 3 big shootas's only 15 more points than the Trukk Boy squad (10 boys, nob w/ klaw or saw, trukk = 155).

I prefer da boomer wagon VS the FW gunwagon because da boomer wagon explodes on a 4+ , so you can attempt a hail mary when it is on its last wounds, and try to charge an enemy unit (one with good AT close combat potential so its return attacks will finish off the gunwagon), like terminators or thunderwolf cav.

But that is kind of advanced taktiks that most people won't remember when the time comes (not very often admittedly, for sure, as you need many units in explosion range for it to be worth the attempt).

And if you fail that 4+ (you can no longer reroll that for 1 cp unlike in 8TH) well... What an anticlimax !

Beardedragon wrote:
it doesnt have objective secure though in case infantry or pesky custodies jump at the point.

Neither do Trukk boys as they are sitting in their trukk?

To be honest, if your back objective is getting flooded as Orks, you've screwed the pooch, or are about to get tabled. And a trukk full of boys isn't going to stop a Custodes squad of anything lol.

It explodes on a 4+ too, so you can attempt a hail mary when it is too damaged, and try to charge an enemy unit (one with good AT close combat potential so its attacks will destroy the gunwagon), like terminators or thunderwolf cav.

6's actually, Gunwagons do the 4+.

objective secured for backfield stuff isnt important for orks.

Ork lists, boy heavy or vehicle heavy, have a giant wall of crap to get past so only a couple of things ever end up in our deployment zone anyway. If the bulk of the enemy army is gonna deepstrike, we dont move so still not an issue.

Besides, kannonwagons are something i'd rather NOT sit on the objective. If its sitting on the objective i cant shift around to get LoS, i am further forward so more likely to get tagged by 36/48" guns, and it provides a "reward" for deepstrike-charging it.
If its off on the side on its own, nobody wants to go towards it theyre gonna wanna shoot it and it just outranges everything.
A random squad of grots is still the best backfield holder, theyre cheap and so small usually you cant even shoot them until youre pretty close.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

A random squad of grots is still the best backfield holder, theyre cheap and so small usually you cant even shoot them until youre pretty close.

Exactly.

The thing in question needs to be cheap. Hell, as mek guns are single units, a single Mek gun that never fires all game but holds my backfield for 40 ppm? Worth every point.

The best backfield objective holders are:

1) cheap
2) Can contribute if possible.

Grots don't do 2, but they do 1 well enough. Plus it's a required slot. The only issue is if the enemy has any indirect, which is why I'd err towards Deff Koptas and Mek Guns.

And frankly, mechanized Orks should be doing stuff like Outriders, Vanguards, Spearheads, and patrols, and limiting their troop usage. We can get Obsec as Deathskulls via our much better non-troop infantry.

Edit: As a fun corollary, I don't know how often this has happened to everyone here, but I also find it *extremely* hard to even disembark 10 boys from a Trukk. My enemy has been able to surround them pretty effectively to the point where I've had to lose several models in nearly all of of my 9th games, simply because the enemy charged it on 1 side with a transport, and on the other side with the guys inside.

tulun wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
it doesnt have objective secure though in case infantry or pesky custodies jump at the point.

Neither do Trukk boys as they are sitting in their trukk?

To be honest, if your back objective is getting flooded as Orks, you've screwed the pooch, or are about to get tabled. And a trukk full of boys isn't going to stop a Custodes squad of anything lol.

It explodes on a 4+ too, so you can attempt a hail mary when it is too damaged, and try to charge an enemy unit (one with good AT close combat potential so its attacks will destroy the gunwagon), like terminators or thunderwolf cav.

6's actually, Gunwagons do the 4+.

you dont need to get flooded. you only need 1 single troop to arrive for you to lose the point, this could be done by deepstrike too or a fast unit.

And yes, neither do Trukk boyz.

Kannonwagon is pointles as a unit to hold backfield objective. Because Kannonwagon is good in driving around looking for right LOS.

Yeap, SMG and grots seems to be the best.

Disembark - I use Emergency disembark almost every game. Pretty nasty tricks can by done with 6” disembark.... on the building... behind the building.....

hey guys, i have a question thats part rule related but also strategy related.

When you charge an enemy with mortal wounds, like ramming speed and stampede from squiggoths, and your opponent removes those models in front of you so, after your charge, you are no longer within engagement range, are you still allowed to pile in? I mean you are technically not in combat now because those models were removed. This tie in to the question of when do you actually remove models?

Like when you have two units (Unit A and B) that charges a single unit (C). A attacks C and kills half of C, and C removes the models closest to B so hes not in engagement range anymore, does unit B still get to attack, given that he charged?

It was a bit of a discussion in my local play store today that we never really resolved. Some says that because B charged, he is allowed to attack, and that models are first removed after combat, not during combat. Others would say its a valid strategy and it doesnt matter if he charged, that doesnt mean he can attack when outside the 1 inch because C removed his models from the attacks made by A.

Does what im saying makes sense?

also i really hope that im still allowed to make a pile in when i deal mortal wounds on a charge, otherwise its pretty easy for such mortal wounds charges to be directly negative for me to even do.


What do you guys think? how shall it be understood? I cant find the proper answer in the core book.

“ An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn. If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight phase ends.”

Charge and fight are 2 different phases.

In charge phase, you charge and kill some stuff. This is removed.

In fight phase you are eligable to fight even if not in engagement range - just pile in and fight, etc.

Yes, removing models in front of the units can cause you troubles with charge. But in such case, it can' t be reason to skip you from fight. You have already charged, so your unit is eligeble to fight with the units / models that your unit charged and is able to get to engagement range via pile in.

It is worth noting that if you kill a lot of enemy models, for example if you use ramming speed on a Kill Tank or other MW dealing vehicule, you will mikemy dealing 2*3 MWs. So you could deal 6 MWs, in which case if your opponents' unit is pread out enough, you could theoretically not end up in eng range from one of the models, even after piling in.
I say theoretically because in practise, it is quite unlikely with the "models for units of 5+ must stay within 2' of at least 2 other models")

 addnid wrote:
It is worth noting that if you kill a lot of enemy models, for example if you use ramming speed on a Kill Tank or other MW dealing vehicule, you will mikemy dealing 2*3 MWs. So you could deal 6 MWs, in which case if your opponents' unit is pread out enough, you could theoretically not end up in eng range from one of the models, even after piling in.
I say theoretically because in practise, it is quite unlikely with the "models for units of 5+ must stay within 2' of at least 2 other models")

when i use ramming speed and big traks mortal wound ramming ability, MUST i roll for the mortal wounds or CAN i roll for it? say if I only just reach one model and i cant pile in to the next for what ever reason, am i allowed to not run mortal wound roll?

If all else fails, we still have that weird stratagem that allows you to charge again if you wiped out your charge target with MW

 Tomsug wrote:
“ An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn. If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight phase ends.”

Charge and fight are 2 different phases.

In charge phase, you charge and kill some stuff. This is removed.

In fight phase you are eligable to fight even if not in engagement range - just pile in and fight, etc.

Yes, removing models in front of the units can cause you troubles with charge. But in such case, it can' t be reason to skip you from fight. You have already charged, so your unit is eligeble to fight with the units / models that your unit charged and is able to get to engagement range via pile in.

I see what you're saying. So i still pile in even though im not within 1 inch engagement range because i dealt mortal wounds on my charge.

No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.

 Jidmah wrote:
If all else fails, we still have that weird stratagem that allows you to charge again if you wiped out your charge target with MW

Ah yes forgot about that one ! Good to keep that one in mind if ever the case arises. Just like the exploding on 4+ da boomer, these little things, remembered or forgotten, can mean the difference between a win and a lose.

@Beardedragon for the kill tank you have no choice, same for the sguiggoth and big trakk. The wording on each datasheet (can't remember if ramming speed lets you choose, don't have the codex with me here at work)

I think Jidmah picked the right strategy there. The onus of 9th is get to the midfield, be durable enough to stay there and have a plan to push the enemy away. (Hence CWE and Tau doing bad atm) As it was a decently durable horde, the Orks could sit and wait for the opponent to shift it when supported by the right secondaries.

The backfield plan may have been a tad risky and the Burna + stormies redundant. I envision something like a cheap mob or two (Grotz/Boyz) + klanker(s) of some for for fire support and counter attack + Kommandos. The mob(s) can scramble and screen deploy while Kommandos do their scrambling late game. The reason for scramblers is that it moves away a bit from an all eggs in one basket approach that Primary+Linebreaker+Direct Assault is.

 Jidmah wrote:
No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.

well yes thats what i meant.

Forgot to write pile in.

But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.

well yes thats what i meant.

Forgot to write pile in.

But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.

Which is why "which unite fight first" is important, it can generate situations where the last unit to fight has no models within engagement range anymore. But perhaps that is not what you are talking about ? Sorry if I got you wrong

So when you guys use the Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig, what do you use them for the most? They seem like a very versatile unit. I could see grabbing objectives, sniping characters, secondaries like engage on all fronts, movement blocking etc. Just curious what you use them for the most, and if there are any other uses I'm not thinking of.

Looking through the mega dread, does anyone Know wtf happened to the killsaw? It has a strength of 8 total Where as the deff dread saws has a strength of 9.

What type og balance is that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.

well yes thats what i meant.

Forgot to write pile in.

But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.

Surely if you charged and units died and you leave engagement range, use get stuck in ladz means you get to pile in again? As a charging unit is Allowed to fight

Which is why "which unite fight first" is important, it can generate situations where the last unit to fight has no models within engagement range anymore. But perhaps that is not what you are talking about ? Sorry if I got you wrong

Weird. i wrote a response more but it didnt appear.

Anyway i wanted to write: If you charge, you get an attack, or a pile in at least. So in the scenario of Get stuck in ladz im thinking:

Charge --> Pile in --> Hit and kill someone --> now you are outside engagement range after your hitting phase was over. ---> end of fighting phase, everyone has hit including your enemy, now you toggle on, get stuck in ladz, ---> you get a new pile in ---> you hit, they die once again.

Thats how i get it.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So when you guys use the Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig, what do you use them for the most? They seem like a very versatile unit. I could see grabbing objectives, sniping characters, secondaries like engage on all fronts, movement blocking etc. Just curious what you use them for the most, and if there are any other uses I'm not thinking of.

I mostly use it for tagging objectives and secondaries like Engage and putting pressure on the opponent by slingshotting it into LOS of characters/squishy backfield units.

I've also used it to compensate for any errors in deployment and just plain getting out of compromising positions.

Beardedragon wrote:
Looking through the mega dread, does anyone Know wtf happened to the killsaw? It has a strength of 8 total Where as the deff dread saws has a strength of 9.

What type og balance is that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.

well yes thats what i meant.

Forgot to write pile in.

But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.

Surely if you charged and units died and you leave engagement range, use get stuck in ladz means you get to pile in again? As a charging unit is Allowed to fight

Which is why "which unite fight first" is important, it can generate situations where the last unit to fight has no models within engagement range anymore. But perhaps that is not what you are talking about ? Sorry if I got you wrong

Weird. i wrote a response more but it didnt appear.

Anyway i wanted to write: If you charge, you get an attack, or a pile in at least. So in the scenario of Get stuck in ladz im thinking:

Charge --> Pile in --> Hit and kill someone --> now you are outside engagement range after your hitting phase was over. ---> end of fighting phase, everyone has hit including your enemy, now you toggle on, get stuck in ladz, ---> you get a new pile in ---> you hit, they die once again.

Thats how i get it.

Don't forget that you consolidate after a unit fights which generally keeps you in engagement range unless you wipe the unit.

Right and that.

If you use a goff gorkanaut and use the smash profile, then you start out with 18hits to begin with when not injured. If you get a 6, does that too generate 3 more hits or just 1 more hit? If 3 more, then it would get a gazillion hits with just a few 6s? Which should happen with a start of 18 hits.

Im assuming its 3 extra, but that Also sounds borderline crazy