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I guess it just doesn't seem to synergize with Da Jump. But it makes to want reliability in a list, just doesn't seem very orky

If he ever wants warparth I suppose he can always pay the CP for Warphead.

I've started to leave da jump at home in infantry lists as well. It's nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be with smaller tables and terrain impacting charge ranges.

 Dendarien wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Ahh and the second Ork list in the NLVO. Classic Green Tide.

Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-5-art-of-war-down-under-pt-2/

In the Art of War podcast he talks a bit about his choices. Basically he wants an army that is as reliable as possible, so the Bull Charge power ensures when he needs a 7 inch or less charge he gets it.

His argument against Warpath makes sense, too.

You already have 5 attacks per boy (3+1 (>20 boys) +1 (ghaz)). 6 attacks is just winning harder.

There's no point in overkilling an enemy. If you fail that 7" charge, though, that could lose you the game instantly.

Keep in mind too -- It's actually an 8" (EXACTLY) charge. 7.999". Pick a unit -- that unit will always make a charge as long as they are 8" away from the enemy, regardless of tanglefoot, terrain, any modifiers.

Incredibly invaluable to remove the variance of a making a charge.

It's just, sadly, GOFF locked, otherwise I guarantee you you'd see it in loads of other places.

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind too -- It's actually an 8" (EXACTLY) charge. 7.999". Pick a unit -- that unit will always make a charge as long as they are 8" away from the enemy, regardless of tanglefoot, terrain, any modifiers.

Not quite. Terrain that is not breachable, like most barricades, still reduce your movement because you need to move over them.

With a list like that, is the 3cp 18’ range kff strat used ? To avoid having defenseless boy mobs and other protected, and the opponent just has to blast the unprotected ones first ? I guess it will depend on deployment zones (quarter table will be a very different game than dawn of war deployment)

cody.d. wrote:
If he ever wants warparth I suppose he can always pay the CP for Warphead.

He already did it, his psyker had Da Jump and Bull Charge. To get Warpath he needed an additional Weirdboy.


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 Jidmah wrote:
I've started to leave da jump at home in infantry lists as well. It's nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be with smaller tables and terrain impacting charge ranges.

Me too, it's a pain to teleport 30 boyz in a juicy spot in turn 1. After that Da Jump isn't that useful. I've swtiched to Warpath/Maniacal Seizures for Deathskulls or Warpath/Fists of Gork with Goffs. To be honest with Goffs I'd leave the psyker at home.

I didn't take any weirdboy for my game with a pure goff list this saturday, and it was a big mistake.
It probably cost my the game. I was facing harlequins, and I took the warboss on bike instead as my 3rd HQ choice

Turns out without biggest boss (I had Gaz), he dies to a stiff breeze after charging. Even with Da killa klaw, he doesn't do much against stuff with a 4++ (even less when target is buffed to 3++).

A weirdboy is cheaper, doesn't need a relic, and da jump or fists of gork can be good utility stuff (fists on gaz) (I don't want to take bull charge if I don't have more than 90 boyz.
Perhaps a 60 point KFF big mek could have been good as a 3rd HQ. My next game with 120 boyz, I will probably try out 60point KFF big mek.

With 120 boyz I'd take Ghaz and 2 KFFs as HQs, one cheap and one in megarmor with the Killa Klaw. With 2 KFFs all the infantries should be under the bubble.

Save the 2CP by using the single detachment, no 4th HQ. Use those 2 CPs to deep strike Meganobz instead, and one additional CP to outflank Tankbustas, if you use them.

Anyway the Weirdboy is of course a legit option, if you like it take it without regrets.

Hmm. I have a tendency of using the warboss on warbike as a heatseeking missile that drives forward, finds the best target he can, preferably targeting several units at once, kills it, dies, then 2CP to fight again to kill some more units as he charged several guys.

And hopefully doing so getting well above his own cost in points. He was probably not designed for that though

I'm fairly sure he was designed to do exactly that, but in my experience he works a lot better if you hide him for a turn or two and them jump out to murder some juicy targets - things that can easily stop a warboss are usually dead or have committed somewhere at that point.

 Blackie wrote:
With 120 boyz I'd take Ghaz and 2 KFFs as HQs, one cheap and one in megarmor with the Killa Klaw. With 2 KFFs all the infantries should be under the bubble.

Save the 2CP by using the single detachment, no 4th HQ. Use those 2 CPs to deep strike Meganobz instead, and one additional CP to outflank Tankbustas, if you use them.

Anyway the Weirdboy is of course a legit option, if you like it take it without regrets.

Yep I agree, no 4th HQ. Next game I will outflank a mega dredd, because I don't trust TBs to work without dakka dakka, and I don't want to spend 2 CPs on that (TBs don't work against monsters and elite infantry so for me they are not meta enough ATM). I wonder what the probabilities are for a 9 inch mega dredd charge without evil sunz and without the 2 CP strat to roll an additional dice to charge).

The warboss missile is less useful with a mega dredd I guess, because as Jid says, it is usually better to wait unitl turn 2 to send him charging into a juicy target. So both kind of fulfill the same roll.
I will try the "not da biggest boss" missile warboss on bike again though, Just not next game I think.

Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.

In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.

I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.

i tend to be agressive with my warboss (on bike) but he sticks near my buggies and/or battlewagons. Though it occurs I don't have the FW book does warboss on a bike still have character protection? if not yea he's hanging with the battlewagons behind los

panzerfront14 wrote:
Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.

In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.

I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.

You already have next to no chance to really hurt a well built DA list in combat, the new things only add insult to injury. I'm much more worried about the "take away objective secured" power, as that is the one thing which kept me afloat against them - objsec characters, manz or elite units which suicide into a terminator/biker squad to score 5 VP before they die.

 Jidmah wrote:

panzerfront14 wrote:
Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.

In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.

I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.

You already have next to no chance to really hurt a well built DA list in combat, the new things only add insult to injury. I'm much more worried about the "take away objective secured" power, as that is the one thing which kept me afloat against them - objsec characters, manz or elite units which suicide into a terminator/biker squad to score 5 VP before they die.

What would you say the best response to this sort of thing, my local meta is either Necrons or Dark Angels as our Admech player is away for some time. I've had crushing victories against Dark Angels through massive shooting output, the standard Da Boomer Wagon and Smasha Gunz, after I scratch built four of them. Plus squads of Mega nobz ripping Intercessors off objectives.

Against large groups of Deathwing, depending on what you have, Smasha Guns seem the best response to them, with some proper screening they can't be charged from deep strike, particularly on the smaller boards.

I've had success with Killa Klaw Bosses, Mega Nobz charges and ork shooting as a whole against the enemy. I normally face Azzy plus a bunch of Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors and a bunch of Auto bolt rifle Intercessors, plus some deathwing back up.

 Jidmah wrote:

panzerfront14 wrote:
Was curious with the new Dark Angels Buffs how will we deal with an army who can cut our melee threat in half with our boyz.

In their new update, they can now shoot in melee at our BS with rapid fire and assault weapons, plus they gained a stratagem that only allows models in engagement range to fight.

I personally in my melee lists rely upon a great deal of Ork boyz making contact in melee to do serious damage. By cutting down the number of orks we can get into combat, plus their other melee defensive buffs this essentially neuters horded based melee without some form of surround. There's always more elite melee, which I have plenty of, but why GW thought this was a needed change is beyond me.

You already have next to no chance to really hurt a well built DA list in combat, the new things only add insult to injury. I'm much more worried about the "take away objective secured" power, as that is the one thing which kept me afloat against them - objsec characters, manz or elite units which suicide into a terminator/biker squad to score 5 VP before they die.

Holy crap, I didn't even see that. 24", no LoS required.

Man alive, Death skulls better keep obsec on all infantry in our next codex.

Andrew Penn 5th in Adelaide Open with following list:

He commented his list on FB
- want skip Bonebreaker and take more Scrapjets next time
- plays Engage and While we stand (keep one buggy from each unit alive from each unit - after FAQ you choose UNIT not MODEL with highest point value!)
- deffkoptas do Engage T1
- prefers Cyborg body over Killklaw for better durability

Bonebreaka probably acts as a distraction, but maybe just the Forktress kustom job could have made it perform better.

Cyb body makes sense, his list has a ton of anti tank, Deathskulls re-rolls and doesn't really need a more killy boss. Gunwagon is probably there for the same reason, T8 grants more durability and he doesn't really need better anti tank or even that CP.

While we stand we fight could be very solid with 3 squadrons. I'm thinking about 2x3 buggies and 6 Smasha Gunz which is something I can field, I don't have 9 buggies.

While we stand, we fight is probably the new way to build for Ork lists.

I think it's easily done in both Goff Tide or Deathskull mech if you are so inclined.

Pretty sure it's an easy 10-15 points.

tulun wrote:
While we stand, we fight is probably the new way to build for Ork lists.

I think it's easily done in both Goff Tide or Deathskull mech if you are so inclined.

Pretty sure it's an easy 10-15 points.

Prey tell, I am trying to find a way to make it work in goff Tide (I have 120 boyz to squeeze in) but I don't see it. DS buggy is easy, as Blackie said for example (dredd can also work i guess)

Yeah, While we stand seems to be better for heavy vehicle lists...

 addnid wrote:

tulun wrote:
While we stand, we fight is probably the new way to build for Ork lists.

I think it's easily done in both Goff Tide or Deathskull mech if you are so inclined.

Pretty sure it's an easy 10-15 points.

Prey tell, I am trying to find a way to make it work in goff Tide (I have 120 boyz to squeeze in) but I don't see it. DS buggy is easy, as Blackie said for example (dredd can also work i guess)

Two ways.

1) 6 Mek Guns, 5 Smashas, 1 Traktor -- 250 points. Take two of these, plus Ghaz. Your boy squads (30 boys, Nob w/ 1 Kill saw) are *exactly* 250 points, allowing you to choose either the boys or the Mek guns -- guess what you do. So 12 mek guns + 90 boys and Ghaz w/ support is an easy list to build. Not that fun imo, but it's a list.

2) Bring in a Deathskulls patrol, add in Dragsters and/or Mega Trakks to Goff Tide. Again, super easy.

For example, this 1805 points.
90 boys (Nobs w/ 1 Kill saw)
Ghaz
Painboy
Kff Mek
10 Grots
3 Dragsters
6 Mek guns, 5 Smashas, 1 traktor

Goff Patrol (add weirdboy for Bat if you want), Deathskulls Patrol. Put KFF Mek in the patrol.

Your While We stand are: 3 dragters, Ghaz, 6 Mek Guns.

Yeah, I thought of that with the mek gunz, but you can't get 120 boyz with the painboy and the 2*5 kommandos in there.
Ghaz is going to die logically. As for the patrol, no way, this list needs CPs too badly (with 4 units of boyz, that is 4 cps for skarboyz so...).

I think I will just skip WWStand unless I go back to only 3*30 boyz (in which case I will totally do as you described, it will work well).

 addnid wrote:
Yeah, I thought of that with the mek gunz, but you can't get 120 boyz with the painboy and the 2*5 kommandos in there.
Ghaz is going to die logically. As for the patrol, no way, this list needs CPs too badly (with 4 units of boyz, that is 4 cps for skarboyz so...).

I think I will just skip WWStand unless I go back to only 3*30 boyz (in which case I will totally do as you described, it will work well).

You don’t need the second detachment with mek guns only.

Here’s a list I brewed up quickly after the change. Gets close but no commandos. Still 26 points short too, which is double kill saw in all the boy squads, or you could cut back the MA Mek to a normal one and probably take some other stuff.

Edit: Cut down 1 more boy, convert your MA Big Mek to a KFF Mek (Make Ghaz the warlord then ), and you can take 2 MSU Kommando squads with no nob if you so choose.

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, While we stand seems to be better for heavy vehicle lists...

I actually doubt that... too many games of mine end up with almost no vehicles left alive, and there are easier ways to score 5 VP - worst case just take assassinate of cut of the head and blow up characters with SJD.
Or better, force the beatstick warlord into hiding

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, While we stand seems to be better for heavy vehicle lists...

I actually doubt that... too many games of mine end up with almost no vehicles left alive, and there are easier ways to score 5 VP - worst case just take assassinate of cut of the head and blow up characters with SJD.
Or better, force the beatstick warlord into hiding

Maybe. Change in WWSWF from models to unit makes them definitely something to think about.

Assasinate or more Cut of the head is definitely the option with the Jets. Even 2 of them have pretty nice chance to score it againts some lists. If you take 2 wazbooms and 2 bommers and build the list about it, they can kill the warlord T1 or no later than T2 except the lists with Mortairion/Ghaz type of warlord lists. The effectivy of such list in other aspects is however definitely something to doubt about.... But honestly it' s one of my projects for these year - build the 4th jet - so I' ll definitely try it


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But you are definitely right Jidmah, that if we take as an assumption, that orks struggle to survive and need to use secondaries based on something else than to survive to win, than this secondary is wrong.

On other hand, list like posted above is definitely based on the strategy “kill them all, before they kill you”. So the usage and success of this strategy makes sence...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I' ve made a little digging about dilema Da Boomer Gunwagon vs. Kannonwagon.

Damage output in total is very similar and depend a lot on the target.

Gunwagon is more expensive (same number of big shootas = 20p more), has T8 (kannonwagon just T7) and explodes on 4+ which is definitely a big pro

Kannonwagon has longer range and is cheaper. And has lower transport capacity, which is not important imho.

Nothing exciting.

What is however interesting is the question of composition of the damage in the list. I ' ve found, that huge part of my list has damage 3 or higher (scrapjets, dragstas, wazboom) and only KBBs Rivet Kannon has dmg 2. Kannonwagon is 3, Da Boomer is 2.

I need to compose the damage of my weapons to have some balance between 2 and 3 to be effective againts different targets...

Well, if DG are a thing your meta, you should get rid of D2 weapons anyways.

Beyond that, I like da boomer because it instantly turns into a gakton of shots when facing horde and because it's less likely to fail on number of shots rolled. I only pull out a kannonwagon to put Badrukk or tankbustas inside.

Kannonwagon also hits on 4s and doesn't cost a CP to upgrade.

Honestly, both are valid, meta dependent. Pick your poison. The opened topped nature of the wagon is nice.

Hmm. well i tend to stick to da boomer, as ive gotten better results from that than a kannon wagon.

More dakka on a gunwagon where ive cast visions in the smoke on, always makes my day.

Id say that the kannonwagon is cheaper, but im assuming this will only be till the codex drops and the gunwagons big shoota cost is removed (which im expecting to happen) because the kannonwagon does not pay for them. But of course you do pay 1 CP to bring da boomer, and you can only have one. Maybe if you face an enemy unit that has many 3wound guys rather than 2 then it suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Maybe against a custodies player the kannowagon would work best as their infantry all have 3 wounds. Even as i say that, i still use da boomer against custodies, and thats the army i fight the most against in my local gaming area.

The open topped nature dont do me anything much as the kannowagon has a range of 60, to encourage it to sit at the furthest away corner of the map, where anything sitting inside of it wont aid it with shooting. I tend to shoot at least further away than 24 inches the first few turns, so anything thats not either lootas or flash gitz wouldnt be able to hit from that distance. furthermore, sometimes you gotta reposition, but if you do, your flash gitz and lootas hits with a minus 1, so im not sure what i would throw in to the kannonwagon unless you wanna drive up somewhat close