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PiñaColada wrote:
There are like 3 or 4 overarching rules I'd like Orks to get in the new 'dex. Some of these are big improvements and might require them to adjust points, which is fine. I think they'd primarily enhance flavour and a more fun playstyle.

1, Dakkadakkadakka give extra hits and not hit rolls on unmodified 6's.
- Pretty decent power upgrade but way faster especially if you run a lot of biker hordes like me or maybe shoota boyz or whatever your army may look like. DDD feels pretty weak right now and this is such a simple fix.

2, All ork vehicles get ramshackle.
- Every single vehicle in the book (the mek gunz, the buggies, deffkoptas even the freakin' stompa gets it). It's a fun durability buff which does slow the game down a little bit but not enough worth mentioning IMO. Ork vehicles aren't mass produced on the line and this represents that. Has the added benefit of people might be forced to overkill your vehicles since even a single 6 could throw off their math.

3, Grots get their grot mobs rules.
- I mean come one, I LOVE grots, but even I only tried to make an all grot army once. It's not feasible so just give them a mini-kultur (wasting an entire detachment for better mek gunz also feels steep in cost). Maybe all they get is reroll 1's to hit, fine whatever. Just give them something.

4, All orks improve their AP by 1 on the charge, an add-on to the 'ere we go rule.
- Tired of your choppas doing nothing? This'd change that in a hurry. It's an improvement most felt by the stuff that needs it, boyz and bikes and it feels super thematic IMO. At least then melee orks would be really scary as a first strike army and it'd create some interesting meta game thinking for your opponents about how to keep denying those greenskinz to start sprinting up on them.

Other quick hits:

- Make some of the other specialist mobs unit upgrades for points instead. Like you can make a skrapjet a "boomboy" for 10 points etc.
- The mek speshul gets +1 to hit and wound against infantry.
- Power stabbas go to AP-4
- Up the cost of power klaws (5,10 points?) and make them damage d6 instead
- Big shootas go to AP-1
- Supa shootas go to AP-2
- Make the burna d3 12" S5 AP1 D1
- Make the zzap gun auto-hit


The Stompa:
- Remove one of its brackets, we're already paying an insane premium for all those wounds. No need to double nerf that with an extra bracket.
- All of the guns are now assault (or count as assault)
- It has a base WS of 2+
- The Supa-gatler goes to damage 2
- Drop it to like 750 and see how that does.

I agreed with everything up until the last section hahaha

Looking at Heavy Bolters and now Splinter Cannons (which took quite a different turn than I was expecting), I can see Big Shootas just being an Orks Heavy Bolter. They kind of were until 8th and more so in 9th edition. Previously a HB was Str 5 AP4 Heavy 3, a Big Shoota was Str 5 AP5 Assault 3, quite identical until firing at units with a 4+ save like Fire Warriors, 'Ard Boys, Skitarii and Scions. That changed when AP4 gave you -1AP and AP5 and 6 translated into AP-. Now the Splinter Cannon that was Rapid Fire 3 with no AP and Damage 1 gets made into Heavy 3 AP1 and Damage 2 it seems like a start of a trend for all these same genre of weapon.

That would then make the Supa Shoota Str 6 AP1 Damage 2, which honestly is alright. The Dakkajet was always our dog fighter and it was alright at it before 8th with most planes (except Storm Ravens) having pretty bad AV of 10 or 11. With the rate of fire a Dakkajet put out and planes only having 2-3 Hull Points, youd see the Dakkajet downing other planes. Now in this edition thats not a thing, the Dakkajet is more a ground support fighter. With Damage 2 it will really help it fight off other light vehicles and planes, then when it turns it attention on infantry, it would even be able to threaten Primaris equivalents.

Powerklaws being Damage D6? Thats a bit much! Its the Orky version of a Powerfist so it should resemble those changes. Id love the Powerklaw to be different, but its such an iconic and common combat weapon that any changes to it could see its price sky rocket or fall out of favour. Currently its obsolete due to the Killsaw which really shouldnt be the same cost as a Powerklaw.

Burnas should just be Flamers with a power weapon close combat weapon mode, end of. Why GW thought to change it from 7th to 8th who knows, its not like there arent other units in 40k that cant take mass Flamers (Agressors, Crisis, Rubrics, Scions/Guard, Chaos Terminators with Combi-Flamers, etc). Burnas are fragile as they come, and kind of rely on transports to get within burning range, and thats all with no AP. Not exactly meta breaking to have them with 12" range and D6 shots.

Power Stabbas AP4? What warrants this? From reading Purging of Kallidus and other Orky novels, Nobs with Power Weapons tend to be just looted Power Axes or Choppas with some Mek gubbins. They should be more akin to a Power Axe, granted that would step on the toes of the Big Choppa. Str+2 AP2 Damage 1. Big Choppas could be Str+3 AP1 Damage 2 so that they can better tackle T4 - 7 units cheaply that doesnt require mass Klaws/Saws or they could have some sort of spill over mechanic where excess wounds pass over.

Why would a Stompa need Assault Weapons? Stompas need Power Fields back or some sort of damage reduction, they should also be able to yano... STOMP!!!! Make it in addition to its standard Mega Choppa attacks. The Blitza-Gatler should just be standard (as with a lot of Kustom Jobs in my opinion). And with a change to Big Shootas, Clans and other things, the Stompa might finally be OK. I dont want it to be cheap, the Tau'nar is cheap when it shouldnt be. Let the Stompa be the king of its weight class, but have the pts to match that. I dont want to see every list have a stompa in like a Castellan because its too good and cheap then watch it get nerfed to the stratosphere. Make it good and Orky, but respectful with its cost.

I honestly hope we get a rule that unmodified shooting attacks of 5 always hit, regardless of modifiers.

Right now, Orks are far too punished by the excess of negative hit modifiers handed out. Even terrain can gimp our shooting phase 50%.

Because the jump between 5s -> 6s is a 50% loss of efficiency, I hope they give Orks some natural protection against it.

Yeah the punishment from shooting for orks tends to make me want to run the (very boring, imo) green tide list. It would be nice to see a codex that allows for other lists to be played. Which, from my limited understanding of the new 9th Codex's ends up happening. (that is, we see more varied lists as possible).

 deffrekka wrote:


I agreed with everything up until the last section hahaha

-SNIP-

Big shootas being an equivalent of heavy bolters is certainly apt, but I doubt they'll get both AP-1 and D2. So it's most likely one or the other I'd say, I personally would prefer AP-1 but either is fine I guess. A similar thing with is the case with the supa shoota, right now it's bad for 10 points so either buff the AP or damage. In fact I'd probably rather have that whatever the buff big shootas get, supa shootas get the other one. Meaning big shootas get S5 AP-1 D1 and supa shootas get S6 AP-1 D2. Both of those guns need something but I think that there's more than one right answer there.

I understand that in all likelihood the powerklaw will end up being the exact same statline as a powerfist but I'll maintain that it'll be a hell of a lot more fun if they just up the points and damage. The killsaw is so similar (even if they change that to the new chainfist statline) that a bit more variance in the weapon profiles would make for more interesting options. That's sort of the argument for me calling for AP-4 power stabbas, on the tabletop they're represented by a nob punching you with an active jackhammer. AP-4 doesn't seem crazy considering that. Game mechanically it really is just a powersword where instead of getting +1S in addition to a bunch of AP you just get a bit more AP. It would also slot in a way with weapon profiles to represent a more interesting diversity. For the sake of argument let's say that powerklaws and killsaws just get the SM statlines, then we end up with:
S5 AP-4 D1 - Power stabba
S7 AP-1 D2 - Big Choppa
S10 AP-3 D2 - Powerklaw
S10 AP-4 Dd3 - Killsaw

I could potentially see the Big Choppas go to AP-2 (I doubt they get buffed in S as 7 to 8 is a huge jump and makes the PK and saw a little less attractive). But nobz are already S5 which means a really high AP weapon is a bit more attractive if your meta is just a bunch of dreadnoughts and/or death guard. On nobz on warbikes you could even buff them to S6 if needed. Is it a huge difference and a cryin' shame if it ends up being just an updated powersword? No, those are solid but it's just a bit boring.

Could burnas end up with just normal d6 shot flamers? Yes, it's probably even likely but we have enough S4 AP- shots so I'd much rather seem them being d3 shot skorchas instead.

I want a stompa to be able to advance and fire its guns so a T2 charge (into something that's not just chaff) is somewhat realistic. I agree that a stompa shouldn't be the bane of the competitive meta a lá the early days castellan, but I do want it to be (at least somewhat) viable. In my eyes, the way to do that is try to make it more balanced between shooting and CC. Buff its shooting too much and if it rolls hot it'll just wipe whole armies. Make 'em too weak and we land right back at where we are now. If you can advance and fire all your guns at 6's T1 just to get a few extra inches up the board then that might be a worthwhile trade-off (I'm guessing that "more dakka" might not be around in the 9th dex or just be <core> ). A stompa that's quickly rampaging up the table is a far bigger threat and tougher to ignore rather than something that mostly just fires from your backlines.

DDD on 5's should be limited to the stratagem, not a stock thing.

An army shouldnt automatically ignore a major aspect of the game. Thats why harlies are such a thorn right now, they flatout ignore terrain and it causes all sorts of problems. Their army technically sucks but a smart harly player wont give you the chance to do anything until they charge you or fire point-blank.
If DDD was stock on a 5+ orks would be immune to negatives to hit in shooting (except grots and Sparkly Bitz mork). That makes no sense and even FURTHER invalidates Freebootaz bonus

I am totally on board with the auto-hit on a 6 though rather than roll an additional die. Both because it just takes forever when boyz shoot 60 shoota shots, fish out any rerolls if badmoonz, then fish out the 6's to roll more, and then fish out more 1s to reroll. Its literally the reason i stopped playing the kulture my army is painted as, it simply takes too long for little gain.
Its kinda dumb that all the BS3+ factions with exploding attacks get auto-hits, but the BS5+ gets extra hit rolls.

PiñaColada wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:


I agreed with everything up until the last section hahaha

SNIP SNIP.

If a Splinter Cannon can get -1AP and Damage 2 why cant a Big Shoota. A Splinter Cannon was so much different from a Heavy Bolter in every aspect that it was quite a shock. Supa Shootas just dont know what they want to be, Str 6 doesnt do you much favours in 9th except in a few cases like vs T3 and T5. Id prefer Supa Shootas to be rapid firing Autocannons, chucking insane amounts of high calibre shots down range that things just get shredded.

Is the harpoon arm from the Nobs kit actually the Power Stabba? To me it always felt like a crude slugga a Mek bodged up, due to it having a cable spoil attached to the bolt.

I also dont think Str 8 is crazy for Nobz with Big Choppas. The game is swimming in +1 to wound and -1 to wound, rerolls, damage reductions and feel no pain equivalents. Str 8 Nobz wouldnt break the game in any way, you already pay through the teef for Nobz already and they arent melee supremacy units like they used to be in editions past. If a Repentia with a smaller Eviscerator gets x2 Str, AP2 Damage 2 with rerolls to hit then why cant a Nob get +3 Str from an even bigger chainsword. Nob Bikers can all ready get to that Str with a strat and that isnt taking the meta to town.

Skorchas are already quite rare so stepping on their toes seems like a bad move balance wise. Burnas should really just be 12" D6 shots. Let them fire in combat like pistols too. Str 5 AP1 will just see them become even more expensive... Compare a Burnaboy to a Sterylizor, might be an 8pt difference, but what a difference there is. 9D6 Str 4 AP1 ignoring cover hits on a quick flying unit that can deepstrike/redeploy with alright melee potential. Keep Burnas and Skorchas distinct, just bring them in line with other Flamers and for the love of Gork make Kombi-Skorchas and Regular Skorchas cheaper.

Is it even worthy firing a Stompa at a -1 to hit just to get a couple inches more out of it not even guaranting a charge from it? Id rather the Stompa shoot better at closer range like we see with the Slug Gubbins Deffstorm Megashoota and Boomstikks. Then let what its namesake implies, STOMP. An Imperial Knight can stomp, why cant a Stompa (or Squiggoth for that matter). It should be impactful, being nearly half your army youd expect it to make some returns, it doesnt even come close to being ok as it now. I sold my Stompas years ago as much as it pains me. Its the largest 40k model ouside of FW with one of the littlest impacts.A tiny Redemptor a 1/5 of its cost can rip it a new one in melee, who thought that was a fun idea at GW....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
I honestly hope we get a rule that unmodified shooting attacks of 5 always hit, regardless of modifiers.

Right now, Orks are far too punished by the excess of negative hit modifiers handed out. Even terrain can gimp our shooting phase 50%.

Because the jump between 5s -> 6s is a 50% loss of efficiency, I hope they give Orks some natural protection against it.

Especially now 6s always hit is a core mechanic for everyone and Orks have pretty limited access to rerolls as it is. I dont know of many units that are BS6 that a -1 to hit would warrant a core rule like that being a thing, but it takes more from DDD when it already wasnt the best of rules. Orks ignoring negatives to hit and 6s explode into additional hits I think is a welcome change, nothing too strong.

DG already ignore negative modifiers to movement and charges, any modifiers to attrition tests plus then their -1 Damage too. I doesnt really break the realms of meta if DDD just flat out ignored negatives to hit and got extra hits on 6s. Its thematic and makes you feel like Orks truly are drowning the opposition in shots even if the guns might only have 2 or 3 shots, DDD represents the sheer volume of shots going a stray that might actually hit too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
DDD on 5's should be limited to the stratagem, not a stock thing.

An army shouldnt automatically ignore a major aspect of the game. Thats why harlies are such a thorn right now, they flatout ignore terrain and it causes all sorts of problems. Their army technically sucks but a smart harly player wont give you the chance to do anything until they charge you or fire point-blank.
If DDD was stock on a 5+ orks would be immune to negatives to hit in shooting (except grots and Sparkly Bitz mork). That makes no sense and even FURTHER invalidates Freebootaz bonus

I am totally on board with the auto-hit on a 6 though rather than roll an additional die. Both because it just takes forever when boyz shoot 60 shoota shots, fish out any rerolls if badmoonz, then fish out the 6's to roll more, and then fish out more 1s to reroll. Its literally the reason i stopped playing the kulture my army is painted as, it simply takes too long for little gain.
Its kinda dumb that all the BS3+ factions with exploding attacks get auto-hits, but the BS5+ gets extra hit rolls.

Its becoming a growing trend that new 9th armies ignore more and more rules. Ignoring modifiers to attrition or flat out auto passing it, negative modifiers to movement, permanent Transhuman, turning off Obsec/auras/actions. As things progress we can see this becoming more and more commonplace that it becomes normal. Is that good for the game? No. But you also dont want to be the Faction that is left out.

On a side note to the wishlisting atm, I'm planning to do a friendly game with my friend who is doing a rhino rush world eater list. I'm responding in kind with a mass meganob "deff wing" style list, using battlewagons and the like alongside 30 mega nobz. Do you think it's worth to include a Nob with WAAAGH! banner when it's mainly Meganobz in my list? I find their cost at 85 points (more expensive than a warboss for some reason) prohibitive and I'm not sure if its worth including when I think only 1 or 2 units may be the only ones benefiting from his aura.

 deffrekka wrote:

tulun wrote:
I honestly hope we get a rule that unmodified shooting attacks of 5 always hit, regardless of modifiers.

Right now, Orks are far too punished by the excess of negative hit modifiers handed out. Even terrain can gimp our shooting phase 50%.

Because the jump between 5s -> 6s is a 50% loss of efficiency, I hope they give Orks some natural protection against it.

Especially now 6s always hit is a core mechanic for everyone and Orks have pretty limited access to rerolls as it is. I dont know of many units that are BS6 that a -1 to hit would warrant a core rule like that being a thing, but it takes more from DDD when it already wasnt the best of rules. Orks ignoring negatives to hit and 6s explode into additional hits I think is a welcome change, nothing too strong.

DG already ignore negative modifiers to movement and charges, any modifiers to attrition tests plus then their -1 Damage too. I doesnt really break the realms of meta if DDD just flat out ignored negatives to hit and got extra hits on 6s. Its thematic and makes you feel like Orks truly are drowning the opposition in shots even if the guns might only have 2 or 3 shots, DDD represents the sheer volume of shots going a stray that might actually hit too.

Honestly, it will also make it easier to balance Ork shooting, too.

Trivially halving our shooting means it has to be really cheap or we have to have an absurd number of shots, either of which is probably going to be problematic.

Hey all, would KFF's be worth it for protecting an army composed of nothing but units embarked in trukks? I know it wouldn't be "top tier" by any means but I am planning on running a 2,000 pt army with 11 trukks.

 Boris420 wrote:
Hey all, would KFF's be worth it for protecting an army composed of nothing but units embarked in trukks? I know it wouldn't be "top tier" by any means but I am planning on running a 2,000 pt army with 11 trukks.

Depends on your meta and what klan you're running. If it's not deffskullz, the 5++ save is probably worth it.

 Grimskul wrote:
On a side note to the wishlisting atm, I'm planning to do a friendly game with my friend who is doing a rhino rush world eater list. I'm responding in kind with a mass meganob "deff wing" style list, using battlewagons and the like alongside 30 mega nobz. Do you think it's worth to include a Nob with WAAAGH! banner when it's mainly Meganobz in my list? I find their cost at 85 points (more expensive than a warboss for some reason) prohibitive and I'm not sure if its worth including when I think only 1 or 2 units may be the only ones benefiting from his aura.

Meganobz are great. How do you want to move them around the table?
What will be the shooting support?
Banner is mehh as you said.

 deffrekka wrote:
If a Splinter Cannon can get -1AP and Damage 2 why cant a Big Shoota. A Splinter Cannon was so much different from a Heavy Bolter in every aspect that it was quite a shock. Supa Shootas just dont know what they want to be, Str 6 doesnt do you much favours in 9th except in a few cases like vs T3 and T5. Id prefer Supa Shootas to be rapid firing Autocannons, chucking insane amounts of high calibre shots down range that things just get shredded. [...]

See, I'm worried GW is going to look at the statline: Assault 3 36" S5 AP-1 D2 and think it's a 10 point gun. It certainly would be for Space Marines and maybe even IG, but not for a BS5+ army. It would almost bring us back to where we are right now, where big shootas are just a liability due to being too expensive. If the statline ends up being either S5 AP-0 D2 or S5 AP-1 D1 then it would be priced at 5 points almost certainly, where it actually ends up being a pretty interesting weapon IMO.

 deffrekka wrote:
Is it even worthy firing a Stompa at a -1 to hit just to get a couple inches more out of it not even guaranting a charge from it? [...]

I'd certainly like to have the option. If you have no good targets or the only good targets are already -1 to hit then why not?

I reckon getting -1AP for choppers, maybe some more AP on a few other weapons, and then Orks getting +1S on the charge would be pretty cool.

DDD going to extra hits on 6’s instead of hit rolls would also be great. Would be so much faster and may make Ork shooting worth rolling for.

Grots getting the Grot protection strat built in could be nice, and/or maybe some kind of invuln save or being harder to hit to represent them being slippery little gits could be interesting.

WAAAGH! being an army wide rule, and expanded into something interesting, could be very cool and would make a lot of sense.

I want them to do something with Nobz too. They seem to be in a strange spot and I’d like to use them! Just don’t really know what.

I like the idea of Ramshackle being on every vehicle, would be a nice little bonus to make them all a little more survivable.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I reckon getting -1AP for choppers, maybe some more AP on a few other weapons, and then Orks getting +1S on the charge would be pretty cool.

DDD going to extra hits on 6’s instead of hit rolls would also be great. Would be so much faster and may make Ork shooting worth rolling for.

Grots getting the Grot protection strat built in could be nice, and/or maybe some kind of invuln save or being harder to hit to represent them being slippery little gits could be interesting.

WAAAGH! being an army wide rule, and expanded into something interesting, could be very cool and would make a lot of sense.

I want them to do something with Nobz too. They seem to be in a strange spot and I’d like to use them! Just don’t really know what.

I like the idea of Ramshackle being on every vehicle, would be a nice little bonus to make them all a little more survivable.

Yeah back when orks were S3 they had furious charge, which gave them +1 S on the charge (and initiative but initiative is gone now). I could see that, definitely !

Hey guys, i dont really have any space marine armies, so i dont know the full difference between Chainfist and Powerfist.

But if we say that our powerklaw and killsaw will get the.. chainfist and powerfist treatment, which of the two weapon types are most beneficial?

A powerklaw would be a powerfist, so AP-3 and 2 damage. Great alround weapon, though rarely used by marines because they have better stuff or lack the number of attacks to make them work.
A killsaw would be a chainfist, so AP-4 and d3 damage that increases to 3 damage against vehicles.

Killsaws might also become something completely different, as they aren't a 1:1 match to chainfists.

 Tomsug wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
On a side note to the wishlisting atm, I'm planning to do a friendly game with my friend who is doing a rhino rush world eater list. I'm responding in kind with a mass meganob "deff wing" style list, using battlewagons and the like alongside 30 mega nobz. Do you think it's worth to include a Nob with WAAAGH! banner when it's mainly Meganobz in my list? I find their cost at 85 points (more expensive than a warboss for some reason) prohibitive and I'm not sure if its worth including when I think only 1 or 2 units may be the only ones benefiting from his aura.

Meganobz are great. How do you want to move them around the table?
What will be the shooting support?
Banner is mehh as you said.

Not much shooting support beyond a kill kannon since it's a pretty casual game, I'm going all in on 2 battlewagons with deff rollas, a bonebreaka, a big trakk, 10 grots, a weirdboy and the warboss with killa klaw/biggest boss upgrade. The meganobz units comprise of two units of 10 (they go into the 2 battlewagons) and two units of 5 go into the bonebreaka and the big trakk respectively.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
A powerklaw would be a powerfist, so AP-3 and 2 damage. Great alround weapon, though rarely used by marines because they have better stuff or lack the number of attacks to make them work.
A killsaw would be a chainfist, so AP-4 and d3 damage that increases to 3 damage against vehicles.

Killsaws might also become something completely different, as they aren't a 1:1 match to chainfists.

Yeah, those are the most likely changes that will happen, though personally I'd prefer if it was changed to the following:

Power Klaws: S:x2 AP:-3 Damage: 3, -1 to hit penalty to melee attacks made with this weapon

Killsaw: S: +2 AP:-4 D:2, each time you make an attack with this weapon, make an additional attack

This way Killsaws are pretty much super elite infantry mulchers, while the PK maintains its previous role as a big tank or monster buster in CC, and it still has the advantage of wounding most multi-wound targets on 2's instead of 3's like the Killsaws do.

These new stats would also result in slight points hikes for both of these weapons of course.

Grimskull - this is solid transport tell us how is it working!

Btw:

There's nothing weird in that list, it's exactly a typical green tide that isn't Goff.

Evil suns boys and smasha guns

What's weird about that?

18 Smasha guns? Thats a lot of damage!

*Slaps broken glass with flexitape*

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, meltas with miracle dices makes me think about 3 SAGs to outshooot them.

And the Zephyrins - jetpacks infantry was also super usefull.

So I like Liam Hacket list with 3x stormboyz and 3x SAG even more....

If they actually fix SAG's than maybe, but at the moment a SAG is just...garbage. In no way, shape or form is a D6 shot BS5+ S2D6 weapon worth 120pts. You could take 3 Smasha gunz for the same price which are 3D3 shots and are significantly more durable spread out over 3 units.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
DDD on 5's should be limited to the stratagem, not a stock thing.

An army shouldnt automatically ignore a major aspect of the game. Thats why harlies are such a thorn right now, they flatout ignore terrain and it causes all sorts of problems. Their army technically sucks but a smart harly player wont give you the chance to do anything until they charge you or fire point-blank.
If DDD was stock on a 5+ orks would be immune to negatives to hit in shooting (except grots and Sparkly Bitz mork). That makes no sense and even FURTHER invalidates Freebootaz bonus

I agree for armies that are already good at shooting, but -1 to hit is everywhere and invalidates 50% of our armies shooting. So if you take a non-Melee army as an ork player you already lost. I like the idea of DDD meaning we always hit on 5s, actually makes our assault weapons worth a bit more as well, and when teamed with the stratagem I would assuming all 5s and 6s explode which gives us even more extra hits. It would likely make gunline orkz possible again.

PiñaColada wrote:

See, I'm worried GW is going to look at the statline: Assault 3 36" S5 AP-1 D2 and think it's a 10 point gun. It certainly would be for Space Marines and maybe even IG, but not for a BS5+ army. It would almost bring us back to where we are right now, where big shootas are just a liability due to being too expensive. If the statline ends up being either S5 AP-0 D2 or S5 AP-1 D1 then it would be priced at 5 points almost certainly, where it actually ends up being a pretty interesting weapon IMO.

This is a very good point and one that I share the worry about. GW has a knack for looking at Ork weapons and pricing them according to what they would be if they were used by Space Marines. Big shoota's are garbage right now and even buffed they will be taken only on units that HAVE to take them, if you up their price point to 10pts, you are killing a lot of units, imagine a scrapjet costing upwards of 20pts more now just to have a slight boost to its big shootas. Look at Rokkitz, GW massively over prices them on most units, hell if they were so good you would see hordes taking 3 of them in each boyz mob. You dont, want to know why? Because 3 rokkitz in an infantry unit = 1 hit per turn for the low low price of 30pts. A SM player can take 2 Missile launchers for the same price(spread across 2 troops choices mind you) and they hit 1.33 of the time and are seen as too expensive and aren't taken often.

A rokkit should be a 5pt upgrade on boyz and a big shoota BUFFED should be 5pts. But I fear they won't be.

There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...

SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:

0) SAG can be positioned. SMG just sits and hopes.
1) SAG can climb up the building and can see something.
2) ... while sitting infantry in basement can protect him via Look out Sir
3) SAG can be transported
4) SAG can be Da Jumped

I' ve played with SMG or generaly Mek Gunz a lot in early 9th and try to make them work. So I feel to be an “expert” in what doesn' t work In 8th, gunz cannot move at all. In 9th, they can a bit, but the game is much more about positions due the terrain and missions changes. So the ability to get to better position gives some adventage to SAG over SMG.

However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.

 Tomsug wrote:
There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...

SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:

However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.

If both are suboptimal then how do you explain this guy getting 1st place ? Was he facing weak armies ? He didn’t play any of the current armies which everyone fear ATM, I must say. Orks druk and what we can assume to be ultra Smurf’s is kind of not that scary when you can face death guard harlequins etc.

I think Smashas are good, but the SAG is not (just my opinion). I also think evil sunz don’t hit hard enough, though they do make da Jump and the green tide strat more scary than other klans.
But hey the guy tabled all three opponents so he had to be doing something right. On a table without much terrain 18 Smashas protected by 120 boyz is really good, as long as you don’t get the quater table deployment hah hah. Else you will be paying a lot of cp to put stuff in reserve

 addnid wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...

SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:

However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.

If both are suboptimal then how do you explain this guy getting 1st place ? Was he facing weak armies ?

Federico Fellini said, that you get the best movie by cutting out the best scenes. You can' t create the great army just using the best units.

This guy massed the SMGs and succed. Liam Hacket massed the SAGs and succed. That' s what I like on orks now, so many options.



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 addnid wrote:


I think Smashas are good, but the SAG is not (just my opinion). I also think evil sunz don’t hit hard enough, though they do make da Jump and the green tide strat more scary than other klans.
But hey the guy tabled all three opponents so he had to be doing something right. On a table without much terrain 18 Smashas protected by 120 boyz is really good, as long as you don’t get the quater table deployment hah hah. Else you will be paying a lot of cp to put stuff in reserve

Yeah, I agree.

 Tomsug wrote:
There is nothing weird about the list. Just the 8th vibe is pretty interesting and different little bit from what we saw here recently. And I have no idea how does he use 18 SMG with 9th ed terrain...

SemperMortis - I dont see the SAG like a must take unit, but there is significant difference between SMG and SAG, that is missing in your comparison:

0) SAG can be positioned. SMG just sits and hopes.
1) SAG can climb up the building and can see something.
2) ... while sitting infantry in basement can protect him via Look out Sir
3) SAG can be transported
4) SAG can be Da Jumped

I' ve played with SMG or generaly Mek Gunz a lot in early 9th and try to make them work. So I feel to be an “expert” in what doesn' t work In 8th, gunz cannot move at all. In 9th, they can a bit, but the game is much more about positions due the terrain and missions changes. So the ability to get to better position gives some adventage to SAG over SMG.

However, both are suboptimal imho and discussion about “what is better” is little bit pointles thanks the different role too.

Smasha gunz can move very little, true, but SAG are heavy weapons on infantry dudes. If they move they hit on 6s. That's also something to consider.

I've seen a lot of tournaments using not so much terrain, 20-25% of the board typically. To me it's no surprise that 18 smasha gunz are able to deal massive amount of damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:


Federico Fellini said, that you get the best movie by cutting out the best scenes. You can' t create the great army just using the best units.

This guy massed the SMGs and succed. Liam Hacket massed the SAGs and succed. That' s what I like on orks now, so many options.

+1 for quoting Fellini . Hacket's plan with 3 SAG was very nice indeed.

Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)

 addnid wrote:
Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)

What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?

i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.

SAG + move + More Dakka = problem solved. But yes, that ' s an issue. But if you put him on the top of the building, you don' t have to move him anymore.

Yeah, I guess this 18 SMG 8th feeling could be caused by the 8th ed terrain common in the area..


If SMG shoots in CC, it means, some dudes came to your deploy and taking your objectives. And it' s blast anyway....

But really - after first couple of games in 9th, I was amazed by SMG on the new tables, because thanks smaller tables, there were nowhere to hide. Worked great. Until we found how 9th ed table should looks like. Than it was less fun.
What is great about SMG is that they can screen your deploy very well. Until you face the opponent with less than 9” deepstrike...

Later, most of the game 50% of SMGs on the table was either unable to fire at all or unable to fire to the right target or without -1 to hit. In later turns, it was even worse...

Beardedragon wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Also Smashas gunz can shoot in cc now, that is huge when compared to 8th edition, when they were neutralised by being bad touched. I was afraid they would get the blast rule, but they didn’t (though having blast could be good to have in some match ups, but I guess I just like the idea of smasha gunz killing something in cc. Hah hah, the grots can rejoice)

What? According to battlescribe and wahapedia, Smasha Gunz ARE blast?

i could be wrong but.. thats what it says. I know neither is official data and they make mistakes, but rather often they are not wrong.

Smasha gun is on the list for the blast update, just double-checked with the actual book.

The only mek gun that can shoot into combat is the traktor cannon.