Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think that's the fun thing for rules designers when working on xenos lists. You can be a little wacky and silly. Just seems like they're usually more conservative with the power level compared to what the marines get.

I would kinda agree and disagree? For whatever reason, it seems like almost all the interesting wacky and cool rules writers are doing their work in AoS than 40k atm. Barring a few outliers like with GSC and Necrons, I wouldn't say too many xenos have too much of a wacky ruleset. Tau are basically all about being "shooting phase, the army" as their gimmick, Eldar are all about psychic powers and glass cannons in CC and shooting. The problem is that in their attempts to revamp and sell more marine models that they steal or take from other armies' design space to do so, which is why there's such a disparity between 9th ed codices and the current 8th ed ones we have now.

I had a game againts tripple killtank with 60 boyz and some character list yeasterday with my buggy list. So it was orks vs. orks.

Interesting is, that the game has the similar scenario. Killtanks went first and ruble stright across the board. Two of the killtanks killed 2 of my 8 buggies and died in turn 2 (very bad roi imho..), last killtank magically survived T3 with “only 5 and 6 to save and Ramshackle” miracle againts about 10+ wounds by various rokket/smasgun equivalents, killed more buggies and died turn after. A lot of boyz died in the meantime. Almost non of them were mine.

So in T4 it was: my 2 buggies, deffrola batlewagon, big trakk, wazboom, 3 kommando squads, 2x10boy squad, 100% healthy pimped up megamek and kaptin baldruk vs. 1x30 boys and painboy and the rest was clear....

Buggies win something like 89:81.
Tripple Killtank list had not enough dakka to kill my buggies. But three huge monsters rubling fast over the board and dealing damage in cc were scary. And hold me in my deploy fight for my objectives for long enough to allow him score 45VP on primaries.

On other hand, it was sweet 15VP for Titan Hunter, and thanks of the lack of his screening pretty free 15VP for Engage and 10 for Scramblers. Linebreaker will be even more effective.

Anyway very nice game, very tight in the first turns and very interesting.

I would suggest to combine the killtanks with some kind of trukkboyz or buggies to spam one type of target. My KBB was pretty happy having enemy boyz to shoot at. The same my boyz...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand....

If I repley in my mind my games againts other armies recently (some deadguard termies, some raven guard jetpackers with shields, some sisters) they had a problem to kill my buggies also due the lack of antitank weapons. So they could have a problem to kill the killtanks too. And two giga shootas will definitely do something to such armies.

Except that they've taken a step back with the wackyness.

Just look at the Mega dreads Mega charge and Grot mega tanks. They were streamlined with the new forge world rules update from where before, they had some really high risk high reward abilities, where you rolled a dice, and based on the outcome, you were either screwed or buffed exceptionally

High risk, high reward doesn't work in a game with 5 turns when most units only live for one or two turns.

All these units will inevitable be garbage when you don't get your reward and totally OP when you do.

Random works well when you either have medium risk, medium reward like random number of shots or high risk bonus effects, like the flash gits extra turn of shooting.

As I understand the 9th ed game system, you have 2 possible game plans:

1) rush forward and stuck your opponent in his deploy to control the field on beginning and get your VP and block his. To do this, you need the units, that takes a time to kill and can move fast forward.

2) hold back for turn or two and kill by shooting the right units and than control the field, get VPs and stop opponent in gaining his.

If your army is too soft and do plan 1, you are dead in T3 and you lost.

If your army has not enough dakka to really kill the right units to T3 and than move fast enough to get the points, you lost also.

This is a brutal simplification with a lot of “but” and “except” and “and”, but I mean it hit' s the point.

Green tide is gameplan 1.
Buggies plays gameplan 2, because soft+shooty+fast.
Mostly people I meet on TTS play something like Gameplan 1 - wet dream is a shield terminator with jetpack moving twice or something like this....

Orks except greentide struggle to do gameplan 1, because only Meganobz or tons of boyz can play this. Or some evil sunz Gorkonaut magic maybe...

With “new” FW rules, there is tripple Killtank option, that offers a third option for gameplan 1 scenario with large vehicles. The question is, how to backup him? The key is to spam one type of targets and control the field imho.

Maybe something like this:

Ive grown very fond of evil Sunz so i always do gameplan one on that one.

Charge one or two Bonebreakers with MANZ in them and gorkanaut (orkymatic pistons) and warboss on warbike in to the enemy ranks in turn one. (sadly i dont have any warbikers or nobz on warbikes so those are excluded). Then groups of Boyz walk up the field to take points meanwhile. i only recently got my hands on 5 deffkoptas so ive yet to try them.

I often have a single weirdboy with a gunwagon --> Da Boomer for long range support to deal with pesky tanks in the backlines im otherwise blocked from reaching turn one.

It is true that i have almost no infantry left at turn 4 and 5, so im in need of really holding back my enemy so much by turn 1 and 2 and hopefully turn 3, that they dont recover.

It is risky though, but also highly satisfying when it works.

sometimes i pay 1 extra CP for another shiny gubbinz (my warboss on warbike has da killa klaw) to give a character REZMEKKA’S REDDER ARMOUR, and then slam it inside the gorkanaut with Orkymatic pistons so he'll go from 8 to 11 and 11 to 12 movement with rezmekkas armor and 12 to 13 because of evil sunz trait. Often its a Big Mek with KFF sitting inside.

suprisingly the character using REZMEKKA’S REDDER ARMOUR needs to be evil sunz but still gives the +1 movement bonus and D3 damage ability when he sits inside a vehicle thats NOT evil sunz, so you could put him inside an auxillary gargantuan squiggoth, stompa, kill tank or kustom stompa and still buff it.

Beardedragon - and have you tried to mix it with some buggies? Let' s say advancing scrapjets?

What I saw yesterday is, that opponent big machines + boyz = total shooting effectivnes of my buggies. That' s a pitty

Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.

Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.

Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.

Pretty much, Orks randomness when GW writes it tends to be very swingy more towards the weaker side of things, look at bubblechukkas for example. Having 6's on everything isn't worth the chance of getting 1's for all your stats for shooting. Unlike SM, we also don't have any ways of mitigating or paying to make it more consistent. Marines have the option to overcharge plasma for very tangible and predictable benefits of +1S and +1D, but at the cost of dying on rolls of one. Buuuuut they have a ready supply of reroll auras and abilities so you basically have a very low chance of that happening. So given that our army doesn't run on reroll auras, I'd much prefer what Jidmah said, with medium risk/reward or just having flat out normal variability with some options to boost stuff with Meks or something rather than go back to WACKY WACKY RANDOM TABLES. Trust me you do NOT want to go back to our old version of mob rule....

Yeah because rolling a dice to everything and then let friends wait while you thinking what to do with total random characteristic of the unit / weapon is super fun.

Honestly, what is fine on playing TTS againts greentide ork is the fact, you can workout, cook, watch a movie or whatever while your opponents try to move all his boyz and roll all dices... Doing something like this IRL would be pretty rude...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.

Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.

Yep. I'd love for orkz to be random, but it has to be balanced. My fall back example is always the old SAG rules. You had 1 REALLY good roll (double 6s) and a host of really bad ones. Not to mention that it was D6 shots hitting on 5s, so you only ever average 1 hit a turn.

I'm looking at all the love for killtanks and I'm thinking of trying to squeeze one into my Wagon list. What's the optimal loadout for one, and how big should I make it?

Honestly I enjoy both versions of the kill tank. The Bursta has a nice hit, but the supa shoota hits a lot. One's great for gravis armour, bladeguard and many more. The other will slap some wounds onto most targets.

If taking it in a wagon list I guess just take whichever fills the gap you feel you have.

 Tomsug wrote:
Beardedragon - and have you tried to mix it with some buggies? Let' s say advancing scrapjets?

What I saw yesterday is, that opponent big machines + boyz = total shooting effectivnes of my buggies. That' s a pitty

yes! i have but the problem is i only have 1 scrapjet, 1 dragsta and one KBB :( but i really WANT to mix in more buggies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot Mega/Grot Tanks did not have high risk high reward, they had high risk moderate reward.
2D6 movement is not a high reward, its either slow as balls or moderate speed.
Mega Tanks' D6 chance to fire at +1 or not fire at all was not anywhere near as high a reward as the high risk is; as +1 to hit was great yes but not being able to shoot at all for equal chances is pretty bad.

Every time Orks have had a seemingly "fun" and/or "randomly good" power its been far more negative than positive on effectiveness. I'm glad theyre finally stopping that crap, i shouldnt need to roll a 1/6th chance per turn to be able to feel like my unit wasnt a waste of points.

i meant its roll a D6 and there might be a mutiny, might nothing happen at all, or you might shoot all weapons at ONE target but add 1 to hitt rolls. that meant all the 7 what ever cannons you had on the Grot mega tank would hit on 3s. that was a fun risk reward thing that could be absolute dogshite or absolute godlike.

Highly impractical because you could end up not shooting at all, but the idea of wacky risk reward rules can be enjoyable if they're just made properly. Not that they necessarily have been made up till this point though.

any random chance innate to a unit's own datasheet that can take it away for a turn is a bad mechanic. Doesnt matter how amazing it is if it works.
Look at guard's .. what was it Deathstrike missiles that virtually never went off but if they did they basically won in the past? Nobody used it because it never did anything, even though the potential was insane.

If you want to see how ork randomness should be designed one should look at Clan Skryre rules for Age of Sigmar.

Thats a "high risk high reward" ruleset done good, specially because you CHOSE when to take the risk, instead of it being forced onto you.

 Galas wrote:
If you want to see how ork randomness should be designed one should look at Clan Skryre rules for Age of Sigmar.

Thats a "high risk high reward" ruleset done good, specially because you CHOSE when to take the risk, instead of it being forced onto you.

yes and its the "done right" part thats important.

I mean lets be real, if they're gonna make any faction have some wacky rules, its the Orks. So its either us or none at all, for 40k that is.


Im not saying we NEED it or anything, just it could be fun to have. or interesting.

If done correctly to maybe a few units. But i also understand that i could eventually grow to hate the wackiness and then writing this would come back to bite me in the ass later.

Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.

I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.

I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.

Yup. That's accurate.

They've a 5/9 hit rate, before Moar Dakka. Add that in, and you get 5/9+25/81, or 45/81+25/81 for a total of 70/81 hit rate. 86%, to take the fractions away.

That being said... That's how many points and CP on a fragile unit outside their transport, exactly? Since you can't use Moar Dakka on a squad that's in a vehicle.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.

I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.

Now throw on Showin' off to do it all again! Scrap 2 heavy vehicles a turn with your squishy tankbustas. Always satisfying honestly.

But yes, you get to use the re-rolls on the additional shots generated by Dakka Dakka Dakka.

i kinda wish we could use stratagems on the tankbustas while they are embarked though so those fragile units didnt have to leave the comforts of the vehicle to be able to deal a ton of damage with showing off and more dakka.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.

I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.

Yup. That's accurate.

They've a 5/9 hit rate, before Moar Dakka. Add that in, and you get 5/9+25/81, or 45/81+25/81 for a total of 70/81 hit rate. 86%, to take the fractions away.

That being said... That's how many points and CP on a fragile unit outside their transport, exactly? Since you can't use Moar Dakka on a squad that's in a vehicle.

More CP because basicly you need to Tellyport them to keep them alive over T1

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.

I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.

Yup. That's accurate.

They've a 5/9 hit rate, before Moar Dakka. Add that in, and you get 5/9+25/81, or 45/81+25/81 for a total of 70/81 hit rate. 86%, to take the fractions away.

That being said... That's how many points and CP on a fragile unit outside their transport, exactly? Since you can't use Moar Dakka on a squad that's in a vehicle.

Thanks

It's painfully expensive and a gamble if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles, but seems fun and very fluffy for Snakebites

I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.

I've put together another version of my wagon list, this time with a kill tank. I managed to squeeze in a handful of quick games while proxying one. I really like the addition of the kill tank so far.

If people could take a look and let me know what needs changing and what could improve it would be much appreciated.

Link to the army list thread in the spoilers.

cody.d. wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Tankbustas and the more dakka stratagem against vehicles. Am I right in saying you'd get to re-roll all misses, then for the total number of hits (because 'more dakka' matches their normal to hit roll) you fire again, and get to re-roll all of the subsequent misses because they're targeting a vehicle? Sounds like more re-rolls than GW would usually allow.

I make that a shade under 13 total hits for a unit of 15, and that's before bomb squigs.

Now throw on Showin' off to do it all again! Scrap 2 heavy vehicles a turn with your squishy tankbustas. Always satisfying honestly.

But yes, you get to use the re-rolls on the additional shots generated by Dakka Dakka Dakka.

That combo was a staple in my early 8th edition lists. But required 6 CPs (tellyporta, more dakka, showing off) so worked good on 18+ CPs lists before SotB was released. Now it's a crazy investments of CPs.

I think 10 outflanking (1CP) tankbustas + 4 bomb squigs + More Dakka (2CP) are a solid compromise in 9th edition. Not too expensive both points and CP wise but capable of getting their points back with good odds. Alternatively 10+2 bomb squigs in a trukk but they require a list very heavy on similar targets like tons of buggies and some of those must pressure the opponent in order to get prioritized and leave the trukk alive for a turn at least.

 Jidmah wrote:
I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.

Can you explain this last part?

zoltan88 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.

Can you explain this last part?

Bomb squigs only hit on 2s and deal good damage. so if he can somehow get the tankbustas close with a trukk or something, they might be able to shoot at actual characters if the characters are the closest model.

zoltan88 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.

Can you explain this last part?

Often when there is no vehicle that needs blowing up, or if you face an army where bomb squigs are useless like against harlequins, I often try to tellyport in the tankbustas in a way that the bomb squigs can target a character while the rest of the unit goes after elite infantry. Four bomb squigs are usually enough to end anything that doesn't have any additional layers of defense. That way you can usually still make a good trade for your suicide unit despite not having any optimal targets.