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That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?

possibly for an evil Sunz army

Nobz on warbikes, 100%. They're the same slot now, barely more expensive and more durable. Not to mention that they have actual weapon options. 9 of them with big choppas were actually pretty decent up until I started facing new DG all the time. Use the strat to give 'em +1S and they'll punch through most things decently well

PiñaColada wrote:
Nobz on warbikes, 100%. They're the same slot now, barely more expensive and more durable. Not to mention that they have actual weapon options. 9 of them with big choppas were actually pretty decent up until I started facing new DG all the time. Use the strat to give 'em +1S and they'll punch through most things decently well

I see. My plan was to drive up with something and just hold the enemy for turn 1 while the rest of the army arrives the turn later or, if they are lucky, on the same turn. I was wondering if i wasted points on the Nobz then rather than the warbikers

I agree with the pineapple. Neither is a great choice, but nobz are definitely are more durable and better equipped to get units off objectives.

 Jidmah wrote:
I agree with the pineapple. Neither is a great choice, but nobz are definitely are more durable and better equipped to get units off objectives.

alright. ill not buy the warbikers then, because i wanted to buy some for my evil sunz army. Guess ill put my money on a dakkajet or a burna bomma despite that not being for evil sunz necessarily (i just want one and dont have one).

Hey is there any update on when the list on page one will get updated? Because this list has been super useful when i first started gathering orks, and still is.

Do you wait untill nations start opening up again for more tournements? or perhabs the codex to drop first? I could understand either way.


btw the Munitorum Field Manual Updated 04/02/2021
puts Nobz on warbikes in elite spot and the warbikers in fast attack? I dont see them being in the same spot.

I don't want to speak for Jid since he's the one doing the work, but I doubt there's going to be any real overhauls on the 1st page until we get the new codex (which is probably dropping in the spring). So while a couple of things here and there maybe should be dropped/bumped a tier most of that list is still accurate.

Regarding nobz on warbikes and slots, their latest datasheet is actually in the Imperial Armour Compendium which gave them a 5 point shave and moved them into the fast attack slot. It's a bit strange but that book has gotten FAQed and nothing was changed so for now those guys are 30ppm and in the FA slot. While I don't think they're necessarily great I don't think they're hampering your lists too hard either, so if you like the models then I wouldn't veer away from them.

And as of right now, get a burna bomma over a dakkajet. But maybe just magnetise the bombs and you can run it as either. The wazbom is actually great for evil sunz speed freeks otherwise since it's a KFF that's fast enough to keep up with the army.

PiñaColada wrote:
I don't want to speak for Jid since he's the one doing the work, but I doubt there's going to be any real overhauls on the 1st page until we get the new codex (which is probably dropping in the spring). So while a couple of things here and there maybe should be dropped/bumped a tier most of that list is still accurate.

Regarding nobz on warbikes and slots, their latest datasheet is actually in the Imperial Armour Compendium which gave them a 5 point shave and moved them into the fast attack slot. It's a bit strange but that book has gotten FAQed and nothing was changed so for now those guys are 30ppm and in the FA slot. While I don't think they're necessarily great I don't think they're hampering your lists too hard either, so if you like the models then I wouldn't veer away from them.

And as of right now, get a burna bomma over a dakkajet. But maybe just magnetise the bombs and you can run it as either. The wazbom is actually great for evil sunz speed freeks otherwise since it's a KFF that's fast enough to keep up with the army.

but isnt the newest updated FAQ the correct one? the one that states the warbikers and Nobz on warbikes are are in different category

The problem is that even in the newest FAQ they're still listed twice. It's a bit murky and GW has definitely screwed up somewhere but their most recent datasheet is in the IA compendium so that's the correct one to use unless explicitly stated elsewhere AFAIK.

On page 35 they're 35ppm and an elite slot, but on page 50 they're still 30ppm and a fast attack slot. Basically GW has accidentally made a distinction between the Ork codex and IA:C datasheet entry. I've written and asked them about it, but they haven't answered nor addressed the issue officially.

PiñaColada wrote:
The problem is that even in the newest FAQ they're still listed twice. It's a bit murky and GW has definitely screwed up somewhere but their most recent datasheet is in the IA compendium so that's the correct one to use unless explicitly stated elsewhere AFAIK.

On page 35 they're 35ppm and an elite slot, but on page 50 they're still 30ppm and a fast attack slot. Basically GW has accidentally made a distinction between the Ork codex and IA:C datasheet entry. I've written and asked them about it, but they haven't answered nor addressed the issue officially.

Id like to point out im using the very latest FAQ from the 4th of feb, which came out just before the Death Guard Codex. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/gxruRl769G2olA3v.pdf

and that FAQ do not show the Nob warbikers as being listed twice, only once for 35 points per model in the elite slot, and warbikers in the fast attack slot for 27 points per model. I have to admit, i dont understand what you mean that in the newest FAQ they are listed twice, because the newest FAQ is the one i just listed here and the one im looking at right now.


Unless you mean the Nob on warbikes are listed twice because they are listed in the FW FAQ compendium but also here? im guessing they just updated it and slammed the Nobz on warbikes back in to the elite slot, looking at this FAQ, rather than making them fast attack. Maybe to actually make a difference between Warbikers and nobz on warbikes.

Look at page 35, those are the FAQed points for the Orks 8th edition codex. There the nobz on warbikes are listed at 35ppm and as an Elite slot.

Look at page 50, that's the FAQ for the Imperial Armour: Compendium. There the nobz on warbikes are listed at 30ppm and as a Fast Attack slot.

The page 35 points cost and slot was there before the IA:C was released (since the start of 9th) and hasn't been touched since. Whereas GW presumably looked over the contents of the IA:C during its FAQ window and okayed everything there. I think they've simply forgotten to update the page 35 entry but there's no way to know. Either way, they're played as 30ppm and FA right now, which is completely rules legal.

pg50 of that very faq, middle column, nobz on warbikes for 30ppm base.

its listed twice. FW is not listed on the same page as codex crap. Thats the issue, they used to only be codex and now theyre FW

edit: ninja'd

oooh..


OH!

wait that doesnt make any sense. thanks for clarifying that for me. So how do i know which one is the correct one? Should i assume the FW one is the correct one?

That also means that Nob warbikers only cost 30 points per model rather than 35. thats freaking huge.

Nob warbikers are damn cheap now compared to warbikers then! thats 240 points for 8 nob bikers if they dont take any special equipment.

The assumption right now is to use the FW one since thats the most recent "print" for them.

i see. thank you. Now it makes a lot of sense why you say Nob bikers over warbikers with 3 point difference

It's a little tricky isn't it? But as I suppose you'd be using the FW datasheet you should use the FW points right? We really are waiting for that codex drop to clear up a few things.

Yeah, list building has gotten a little stale for me besides playing around with some of the FW units, I'm looking forward to a shake-up to the usual army lists with an update.

well the issue is GW has this dumb "no model no rules" mentality and TECHNICALLY there isnt any nobbikers from GW, but there are from FW.

So thats why the datasheet moved.

Oh yeah, that's the thing i'm looking forward to most when our codex comes out. I don't mind if it's not the most powerful book released, just as long as it's got some fun new lists to Zog around with.

i wrote something here but it doesnt matter. I messed up.

 Jidmah wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I rarely find them useless. Even if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, you can usually find expensive 2 or 3 wound infantry that doesn't like getting hit by rokkits. Bomb squigs are also fairly good at assassinating characters.

Can you explain this last part?

Often when there is no vehicle that needs blowing up, or if you face an army where bomb squigs are useless like against harlequins, I often try to tellyport in the tankbustas in a way that the bomb squigs can target a character while the rest of the unit goes after elite infantry. Four bomb squigs are usually enough to end anything that doesn't have any additional layers of defense. That way you can usually still make a good trade for your suicide unit despite not having any optimal targets.

Man I just have a hard time seeing the benefit of tankbustas. If everything works out perfectly, you suicide 210 pts and 3 CP to kill 1 character and some elites in round 2? Or maybe a T7 vehicle (15 wounds on average with more dakka)? T8 and the odds say only 3 shots go through something with a 3+ save, so you're doing a measly 9 damage to most T8 vehicles.

What am I missing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't understand why you would assume you can target a character with the bomb squigs. They would still have to be the closest model. No one is going to allow you to pull that off when they know your tankbustas are in reserve.

Remember that with the new character rules you don't have to have the target be the closest model any more. You can also kill most of the models around them till you can target said character. All depends on how wide a front the enemy is presenting. With 40K being what it is currently you usually will only have to knock a couple of units down to less than 3 models. With ork's dakka that's achievable.

cody.d. wrote:
Remember that with the new character rules you don't have to have the target be the closest model any more. You can also kill most of the models around them till you can target said character. All depends on how wide a front the enemy is presenting. With 40K being what it is currently you usually will only have to knock a couple of units down to less than 3 models. With ork's dakka that's achievable.

Pretty much this. Not that many people are used to the new character protection rules regarding LoS in 9th ed., where you need to be significantly more castled to adequately protect HQ's. For your opponent to sufficiently protect them the entire game, that makes them have to either hang back in their deployment surrounded by units or be in the middle of the board with said units, the former will likely lead to them losing to you on primaries for the game, while the latter makes it extremely unlikely that you won't have at least one turn where attrition has taken its toll and you can target at least one character that has been left out of position.

yeah 9th's character protection rules are weird.

Character is in wide open? Can shoot.
Character is within 3" of a vehicle/monster or 3 models unit and not the closest model? Cant shoot.
Character is within 3" of a vehicle/monster or 3 models unit and is the closest model? Can shoot.

The weird part is even if hes within 3 of something, but closer than those models, you still cant shoot the character if something is closer, despite not being within 3 of that character.

So yeah, if there's a landraider near the firing unit and another 48 inches away with a character standing right in front of it. Pretty sure you can't target said character because the boxes are ticked as odd as that is.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
well the issue is GW has this dumb "no model no rules" mentality and TECHNICALLY there isnt any nobbikers from GW, but there are from FW.

So thats why the datasheet moved.

Technically Nob biker models do exist, they just require you to buy multiple boxes of warbikers to make a unit and a box or two of nobs if you want any kind of model customisation.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
well the issue is GW has this dumb "no model no rules" mentality and TECHNICALLY there isnt any nobbikers from GW, but there are from FW.

So thats why the datasheet moved.

Technically Nob biker models do exist, they just require you to buy multiple boxes of warbikers to make a unit and a box or two of nobs if you want any kind of model customisation.

yea. you gotta buy Nob hands at least if you wanna customize.

Beardedragon wrote:
That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?

possibly for an evil Sunz army

Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.

Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.

Ork bikers, in general, have seen a decline in use since 8ed dropped. They can't be used as tarpids or missiles as they are both too fragile and the klaws don't do what they used to. Also, point cost is currently stupidly high.

That out of the way, point cost consistency has been messed up in the FAQ as explained by several posters. What I have decided is to shelve them until, at least, the new codex comes out.

If you are looking for a unit that will perform similarly to the old bikers, look into the koptas with h.shootas.

 Blackie wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
That reminds me, if you guys had to go for either warbikers or Nobz on warbikes, which would you choose?

possibly for an evil Sunz army

Nobz on warbike all with special weapons. Which combination is up to you and available points, but don't field slugga/choppa models, or at least no more than a single one. Personally I'd give 2-3 PKs and 3-2 big choppas to a 5 man unit. I wouldn't bring more models as Blast weapons would tear them apart too easily.

Last ork bat rep posted on Tabletoptactics had 2x5 Evil Sunz units of biker nobz, all stock except the squad leader with the klaw. The player used them to charge tanks (chimeras) without even scratching them. So if you want stock bikers for their speed, shooting without penalties and tarpit something early game just bring regular ones.

i saw that battle, but its not that likely that the only thing you face is a horde of tanks. If he had played against anything other than Imperial guard hiding all troops inside chimeras, then the choppa nobz would have worked decently.

But that chimera play definitely countered his Nob Bikers heavily. But there could be a lot of other scenarios in which they would be useful

Yeah, but choppa nobz do nothing more than choppa bikers. S4 or S5 with no AP in those numbers don't make much of a difference, and the +1S strategem doesn't help either. With S7 or S10 for each nob (or at least the majority of them) the unit gains much more weight for a reasonable price hike in the unit's points cost and big choppas benefit a lot from getting +1S if needed.