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This is what makes me always sad. Open any Tamyia kit and it fits like swiss watches. For the fragment of the price.

I have both metal and fine cast kommandos... my old ghaz had some minor chunks I needed to remove w a blade but nothing to bad... badrukk and snikrot were almost completely fine minus a little flash and mould line removals....

That zagstrukk though my god his little remote trigger hand was just a solid block of resin I had to chisel and sculpt a completely new hand.

Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised to see a new codex minus a few old models.. I honestly think defffkoptas are end of life.

Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.

Pros

1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.

2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.

3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.

4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A

Cons

1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it

2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?

3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.

 Tomsug wrote:
This is what makes me always sad. Open any Tamyia kit and it fits like swiss watches. For the fragment of the price.

Indeed. Before I got into using models for anything but shelfspace that was my favourite.

Hey guys. tomorrow ill have my first battle versus a Thousand Sons army. Im not fully sure about what to expect except a lot of psykers and mortal wounds.

What kind of Ork army composition would be best against them? Something tells me that Ghazzy would be a terrible choice.

Im thinking maybe something fast to cross the distance for a Turn 1 charge with Evil Sunz? Or maybe just the good ol' deathskulls with a balanced CC and ranged force. Or maybe a Ghazzy storm of 90 boyz really isnt too bad after all.

Something without a psyker maybe, so as to get my secondary points from Abhore the witch.

Pure Thousand sons just aren't very good, so I wouldn't be too worried. Not bringing a psyker for "abhor the witch" is iffy IMO. Would you have brought that psyker otherwise? If yes, then we're in tailoring territory...

Generally speaking though, multi-damage weapons are good since it negates their "All is dust" rule. They're generally speaking quite slow but have, depending on cult, a spell similar to "da jump" so screening is important. Their termies also shred T7 or less units but thousand sons always struggle with T8. They have tough obsec units but I'd just grind them down with flanking warfare. Bring a couple of boyz/grots squads so you can eat their potential smite spam (even though it's less of an issue then grey knights and just not as scary in 9th in general).

zoltan88 wrote:

Spoiler:

Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.

Pros

1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.

2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.

3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.

4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A

Cons

1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it

2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?

3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.

If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.

That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Pure Thousand sons just aren't very good, so I wouldn't be too worried. Not bringing a psyker for "abhor the witch" is iffy IMO. Would you have brought that psyker otherwise? If yes, then we're in tailoring territory...

Generally speaking though, multi-damage weapons are good since it negates their "All is dust" rule. They're generally speaking quite slow but have, depending on cult, a spell similar to "da jump" so screening is important. Their termies also shred T7 or less units but thousand sons always struggle with T8. They have tough obsec units but I'd just grind them down with flanking warfare. Bring a couple of boyz/grots squads so you can eat their potential smite spam (even though it's less of an issue then grey knights and just not as scary in 9th in general).

well. Yes i would bring a psyker otherwise. We both often try and bring armies that brings the other person down. And since we both know what we will face (in fact he has the "high ground" since he has fought me a thousand times and ive never fought a TS army in my life) its not an issue. We both play to the knowledge of the army we face, we just dont know each others composition. we've fought a ton of times Orks versus his custodian army. It wouldnt be wrong of me to play towards the knowledge of him using that exact army, in fact, im at a massive disadvantage already. And even then i cant do it that well given ive never fought them.

He will most likely bring lots of anti infantry too because he knows i play orks.

But since Abhore the Witch was nerfed, i wonder if its still worth taking for me. To be fair, im not used to playing without a psyker. and if i go evil sunz, id really want that Da Jump and Visions. Hopefully id stay out of the what.. 24 inch deny range.

but then again going Evil Sunz would leave little left to screen my backline as most my army would be charged across the field in trukks and battlewagons.
So it will either be:

a turn 1 charge Evil Sunz army to get the advantage in CC combat which he shouldnt be super good at (and maybe ill try 5 rokkit deffkoptas for the first time)

Or try out a cheeky bad moon army with a focus on Tankbustas coming in from the side or deepstriking in for double shooting, and hoping he brings vehicles, coupled with some backline shooting from kannon wagons etc

or a death skulls all rounder army and bring out my 1 shokkjump and scrapjet and some other stuff which i dont know what would be yet. heavy infantry maybe, maybe not.

I wonder if the Zaggzapp would be good in this matchup. ive legit never used it but you guys speak highly of it.

Abhor the witch is still basically a guaranteed 15VP unless he's playing some tzaangor skew build so it's extremely potent. I'd say it's easily worth the trade off so assuming he'd be okay with some small amount of list tailoring then it's a good move.

TS in general have a bunch of different spells and strats to really buff up their units, usually they're poured on a terminator squad or a larger rubricae squad so just make sure that you give yourself options and aren't forced to shoot into that super-buffed unit. Considering every single bolter in the army (sans a few vehicle ones) are AP-2 deffskulls are a good choice. They also have a strat where you can double shoot the bolters on a rubricae or terminator unit (only if the unit stood still that movement phase) don't give a terminator squad a good target for that, because all those AP-2 combibolters double shooting with VotLW is a death knell to anything T7 or less.

The army is also, almost ironically, weak to any sort of mortal wounds that aren't caused by psychic powers since all their units are expensive and I don't think there's a single FnP in the entire army. They do however have multiple ways of healing models and even returning slayed ones, so it's better to wipe units entirely rather than whittle a few of them down. But I honestly think Orks are a fair bit stronger than TS and the matchup isn't too difficult. Of course, if he's used to playing your Orks and you don't know what you're up against then it might be tough.

PiñaColada wrote:
Abhor the witch is still basically a guaranteed 15VP unless he's playing some tzaangor skew build so it's extremely potent. I'd say it's easily worth the trade off so assuming he'd be okay with some small amount of list tailoring then it's a good move.

TS in general have a bunch of different spells and strats to really buff up their units, usually they're poured on a terminator squad or a larger rubricae squad so just make sure that you give yourself options and aren't forced to shoot into that super-buffed unit. Considering every single bolter in the army (sans a few vehicle ones) are AP-2 deffskulls are a good choice. They also have a strat where you can double shoot the bolters on a rubricae or terminator unit (only if the unit stood still that movement phase) don't give a terminator squad a good target for that, because all those AP-2 combibolters double shooting with VotLW is a death knell to anything T7 or less.

The army is also, almost ironically, weak to any sort of mortal wounds that aren't caused by psychic powers since all their units are expensive and I don't think there's a single FnP in the entire army. They do however have multiple ways of healing models and even returning slayed ones, so it's better to wipe units entirely rather than whittle a few of them down. But I honestly think Orks are a fair bit stronger than TS and the matchup isn't too difficult. Of course, if he's used to playing your Orks and you don't know what you're up against then it might be tough.

i see. well given the fact ive never fought TS in my life i will probably lose and thats fine. But yes we tailor build all the time. we often tailor to the knowledge of the army the other is playing. Then if one person is winning too much we tend to let one army and composition be known, where as the other can tailor to that knowledge. In this case im on the receiving end of walking blindly in to a match versus an army ive never fought. My moral compas isnt pointing the wrong way here! I also lost the last 2 times versus his custodian army.

I have one last question though, do they have any ways of giving me a -1 to hit in the shooting phase? Just if you knew out the back of your head. Im used to play against his custodian vexilla that gives that annoying -1 to hit and that really hampers my shooting game. So If he can do that still for TS im probably more inclined to go for a mainly CC army or at least balanced, rather than shooting heavy.

i wonder if his army would be weak against a Squiggoth or gargantuan Squiggoth. I do have a gargantuan Squiggoth, and while the unit in general isnt great, its a beautiful model. and it does deal good D6 MW on charges

Yes, they have a psychic power that targets one of their own units and makes it -1 to hit (Glamour of Tzeentch), that one and "Weaver of Fates" which improves a units' invulnerable save are the two powers you'll see every turn, irrespective of TS army build. They dont have some ubiquitous -1 to hit so you can always choose another target. The only really reactive buff they have is the "indomitable foes" strat which improves a terminator or rubricae invulnarable save when targeted by an attack by 1 unit the end of the phase.

Generally speaking the army is weak in melee, so beat them up there, but the terminators are pretty decent. I'd just avoid them if possible and try to wipe out everything else. They still have the old marine number of wounds so the termies aren't 3W yet and you want to bring damage 2 weapons to deny his "all is dust" anyways. So just spam D2 weaponry and you'll be fine. Anything damage1 and no ap will do absolutely nothing all game

PiñaColada wrote:
Yes, they have a psychic power that targets one of their own units and makes it -1 to hit (Glamour of Tzeentch), that one and "Weaver of Fates" which improves a units' invulnerable save are the two powers you'll see every turn, irrespective of TS army build. They dont have some ubiquitous -1 to hit so you can always choose another target. The only really reactive buff they have is the "indomitable foes" strat which improves a terminator or rubricae invulnarable save when targeted by an attack by 1 unit the end of the phase.

Generally speaking the army is weak in melee, so beat them up there, but the terminators are pretty decent. I'd just avoid them if possible and try to wipe out everything else. They still have the old marine number of wounds so the termies aren't 3W yet and you want to bring damage 2 weapons to deny his "all is dust" anyways. So just spam D2 weaponry and you'll be fine. Anything damage1 and no ap will do absolutely nothing all game

Thanks buddy. But at least its not an aura of -1 to hit like the Vexilla constantly do. That'll come in handy, perhabs.

Or maybe ill just evil sunz charge turn 1 them. Im not sure. Im a bit afraid of magnus and terminators just teleporting in turn 2 in my backlines if i charge forward though. So i would need to hold something back

 Jidmah wrote:


If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.

That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.

100% agree with Jid here. If you aren't running Goffz you are getting more bang for your buck with a standard warboss on a bike with the relic klaw and the upgrade strat. And Orkz are just terrible at CC right now against Space Marines. if you magically get all 30 boyz in range of a 10 man squad of tacs without losing a single model you get 120 attacks, 80 hits, 40 wounds which works out to....13 wounds or 6 and a half dead tac Marines. last edition that same unit of 30 was slaughtering the entire unit with overkill. If you don't upgrade the boyz somehow you are going to bounce off targets like Jid mentioned.

This is a bit of a rules question but im a bit curious, do Bomb squigs get a secondary hit roll from Dakka Dakka? (related to my battle tomorrow).

I would say they do.

Yes, if they are lucky, they explode twice

Beardedragon wrote:
This is a bit of a rules question but im a bit curious, do Bomb squigs get a secondary hit roll from Dakka Dakka? (related to my battle tomorrow).

I would say they do.

Yup. Nothing stops them from proccing it. I like to imagine that they explode with the exact right timing for all the bombs it has.

Thanks guys

Semper Mortis is right. Pure boyz are a lot of noise and struggle to do some damage againts elite infantry or harder units.

Triple kill tank would probably work very well against TS

 Jidmah wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:

Spoiler:

Anyone have any luck running Ghaz in a Deffskullz infantry list? This allows you to go heavy on elites with only 60 or less boyz.

Pros

1) less squishy boyz w/ 6++. Yes, I know they can get a 5++ with a KFF but that confines them to a 18" circle on the board. As soon as you da jump or simply move out of the bubble I find that they die to a stiff breeze before they ever get to use the benefits of skarboyz. Also, the 6++ works in melee.

2) obsec for all infantry - this is huge for MANz, nobz, kommandos, characters not named ghaz. I find that this alone gets me at least 10-15 points per game, and denies my opponent the same. that's a 20-30 point swing.

3) rerolls for Power Klaws, Killsaws, KMB dreads. Especially the reroll damage is very helpful.

4) Ghaz's great waaagh still works - advance & charge and +1A

Cons

1) Ghaz doesn't receive kultur benefits - I find that he doesn't need it

2) Ghaz' rerolling 1s aura turns off - At least for me this is only useful in certain situations. I find that I usually run ghaz away from the boyz to hide behind obstructing terrain as much as possible. As such, his auras rarely get used. Am I just doing this wrong?

3) No skarboyz - I find skarboyz is overkill for most things if the boyz can get in combat, and wasted if they die before they get there. Regular boyz with warpath can kill damn near anything and are more likely to survive the carnage.

If you're not running goff, why bother with Thrakka? A warboss on warbike does very similar damage to Thrakka without trait, so just save yourself the points.

That said, in my opinion skarboyz is what makes goff work, Thrakka is just the icing on the cake. Wounding marines on 3s is very much necessary to kill them reliably, and I've watched in disbelieve an entire mob of 30 ES bounce off a unit of deathshrouds who then turned around and murdered most of them.

I completely agree on Skarboyz. When I run goffs, that's an autotake and i'm also running thrakka. I ran a goffs list against blood angels last weekend and at the end of round 1, 60 boyz were dead with no chance to green tide. That wouldn't have happened if I was running deffskullz. Not having a save in melee against space marines is brutal. Almost everything has at least AP -1, and some chapters can even make sure they fight first. Even without the fight first, counter-offensive is something I see used often to soften the blow from a unit of boyz.

This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.

When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?

Yikes i got destroyed during my battle with TS.

He brought 10 terminators that teleported around, and 3 Defilers, + 2 daemon princes and magnus. and some minor rubrics + a hellbrute. I brought 2 bonebreakers with MANZ in them, 50 boyz, 2x 5 kommandos and 15 tankbustas that i deepstriked. and 5 rokkit deffkoptas with a warboss on warbike. Sadly i lost the battle somewhat hard. He got turn one, which made a massive difference. I think i had a somewhat chance of winning if i went first, but i didnt. An army shouldnt fall or rise only based on whether one goes first or not, so my deployment was either bad, or my composition was bad.

In hindsight maybe i should have focused more on staying out of sight from his defilers with my bonebreakers, which i didnt. I started at the front line in the straightest and fastest line to his enemy line, for that T1 charge. If i was hidden, i could probably not do a turn 1 charge, which i wanted, but it left me open for being demolished by the defilers, staying far behind. The stage map also didnt help me. But i will use the army again against him i think, and try and play differently and better next time maybe.

On a positive notice his terminators, while being dangerous, didnt do AS much damage as i feared versus units in a KFF. even boyz.

Maybe ill try a more shooty list instead. i just dont have a lot of shooty units though

zoltan88 wrote:
This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.

"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.

When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?

The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.

Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?

 Jidmah wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:
This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.

"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.

When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?

The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.

Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?

I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

zoltan88 wrote:


I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

I do think orkz aren't in a great place right now, mostly due to the key ork units being degraded over time. (Power creep). But orkz are doing fine by being counter meta (feels like this is the case every edition), showing up to a tournament with 120 boyz in a meta that favors elite multi wound good save infantry is always fun.

You asked a question, the answer was just not what you wanted to hear. If you are running deffskullz than take a normal warboss as opposed to a REALLY expensive beatstick in ghaz. Why? because you will get more bang for your buck with the cheaper warboss, if its Goffz, then go for ghaz. If you are running a green tide style list at a tournament I'd recommend Goffz just because as I've previously mentioned, ork boyz are no longer that good at killing Speese Mehreens. Doubling the Space Marines wounds, giving them extra CC attacks, giving them a plethora of other buffs which make them deadlier at range, just means you won't do as well. 10 Deff skullz in CC get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg. (add in the extra 1 hit/wound roll if you really want). 10 Goffz with the skarboyz upgrade get 30 attacks (exploding 6s) = 23.3 hitz, 15.5 wounds and 5 dmg.
Keep in mind, i'm still of the opinion that is ridiculously low dmg output, but the difference is almost 1 full dead Space Marine.

SemperMortis wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:


I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

I do think orkz aren't in a great place right now, mostly due to the key ork units being degraded over time. (Power creep). But orkz are doing fine by being counter meta (feels like this is the case every edition), showing up to a tournament with 120 boyz in a meta that favors elite multi wound good save infantry is always fun.

You asked a question, the answer was just not what you wanted to hear. If you are running deffskullz than take a normal warboss as opposed to a REALLY expensive beatstick in ghaz. Why? because you will get more bang for your buck with the cheaper warboss, if its Goffz, then go for ghaz. If you are running a green tide style list at a tournament I'd recommend Goffz just because as I've previously mentioned, ork boyz are no longer that good at killing Speese Mehreens. Doubling the Space Marines wounds, giving them extra CC attacks, giving them a plethora of other buffs which make them deadlier at range, just means you won't do as well. 10 Deff skullz in CC get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg. (add in the extra 1 hit/wound roll if you really want). 10 Goffz with the skarboyz upgrade get 30 attacks (exploding 6s) = 23.3 hitz, 15.5 wounds and 5 dmg.
Keep in mind, i'm still of the opinion that is ridiculously low dmg output, but the difference is almost 1 full dead Space Marine.

The problem here is all you are focusing on is the scenario in which the same number of models are attacking the same unit. This would almost never be the case unless you are considering the scenario in which you da jump 30 boyz into enemy lines turn 1.

Let's look at the much more likely scenario in which the space marines get the jump on the boyz due to higher mobility of a smaller unit with higher movement statistic. For the sake of argument, let's assume 10 assault intercessors moved to w/in charge range. The boyz take a barrage of fire from nearby units that kills 12 goff boyz (10 deffskullz boyz). Not including any faction upgrades, the assault intercessors charge w/ 31 attacks, hitting 20.67, wounding 10.33. Kills 10 goffs boys (8-9 deffskullz boyz. Let's assume 9 for argument's sake). So now the goffs boyz are down to 8 boyz, whereas the deffskullz boyz are down to 11. Now the boyz fight back. 8 goffs boyz (assuming 1 is nob) produce 25+4 attacks w/ exploding 6s, hitting 19.33, wounding 12.89, 4.30 wounds go through (2 marines). 11 deffskullz boyz (let's do s4 boyz first) produce 30 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 10, 3.33 wounds go through. The s5 nob produces 4 attacks +1 w/ reroll, hitting 3.33, wounding 2.33 w/ reroll, resulting in 0.56 wounds. 3.33 + 0.56 = 3.89. The difference is 0.41 wounds. Now assuming the nob has a power klaw, he is going to perform much better w/ deffskullz rerolls, especially when rerolling damage means 1 wound that goes through likely = 1 dead marine.

You are giving up obsec elite infantry and HQs, rerolls, and an army wide 6++ for 0.41 extra wounds. Everyone here is stuck in 8th edition. The story of 9th is obsec, durability, and mobility.

Additionally, the invuln save could be the difference between dropping to 19 models vs 20 which is 23 attacks, or having to use auto-pass morale strat to green tide (5CP vs 3CP), or the squad being wiped off the map completely.

zoltan88 wrote:
This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

Sorry, but my answers are from actual experience and I genuinely tried to help you. No more. The one and only thing wrong here is your attitude.

zoltan88 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:


I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

I do think orkz aren't in a great place right now, mostly due to the key ork units being degraded over time. (Power creep). But orkz are doing fine by being counter meta (feels like this is the case every edition), showing up to a tournament with 120 boyz in a meta that favors elite multi wound good save infantry is always fun.

You asked a question, the answer was just not what you wanted to hear. If you are running deffskullz than take a normal warboss as opposed to a REALLY expensive beatstick in ghaz. Why? because you will get more bang for your buck with the cheaper warboss, if its Goffz, then go for ghaz. If you are running a green tide style list at a tournament I'd recommend Goffz just because as I've previously mentioned, ork boyz are no longer that good at killing Speese Mehreens. Doubling the Space Marines wounds, giving them extra CC attacks, giving them a plethora of other buffs which make them deadlier at range, just means you won't do as well. 10 Deff skullz in CC get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.33 dmg. (add in the extra 1 hit/wound roll if you really want). 10 Goffz with the skarboyz upgrade get 30 attacks (exploding 6s) = 23.3 hitz, 15.5 wounds and 5 dmg.
Keep in mind, i'm still of the opinion that is ridiculously low dmg output, but the difference is almost 1 full dead Space Marine.

The problem here is all you are focusing on is the scenario in which the same number of models are attacking the same unit. This would almost never be the case unless you are considering the scenario in which you da jump 30 boyz into enemy lines turn 1.

Let's look at the much more likely scenario in which the space marines get the jump on the boyz due to higher mobility of a smaller unit with higher movement statistic. For the sake of argument, let's assume 10 assault intercessors moved to w/in charge range. The boyz take a barrage of fire from nearby units that kills 12 goff boyz (10 deffskullz boyz). Not including any faction upgrades, the assault intercessors charge w/ 31 attacks, hitting 20.67, wounding 10.33. Kills 10 goffs boys (8-9 deffskullz boyz. Let's assume 9 for argument's sake). So now the goffs boyz are down to 8 boyz, whereas the deffskullz boyz are down to 11. Now the boyz fight back. 8 goffs boyz (assuming 1 is nob) produce 25+4 attacks w/ exploding 6s, hitting 19.33, wounding 12.89, 4.30 wounds go through (2 marines). 11 deffskullz boyz (let's do s4 boyz first) produce 30 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 10, 3.33 wounds go through. The s5 nob produces 4 attacks +1 w/ reroll, hitting 3.33, wounding 2.33 w/ reroll, resulting in 0.56 wounds. 3.33 + 0.56 = 3.89. The difference is 0.41 wounds. Now assuming the nob has a power klaw, he is going to perform much better w/ deffskullz rerolls, especially when rerolling damage means 1 wound that goes through likely = 1 dead marine.

You are giving up obsec elite infantry and HQs, rerolls, and an army wide 6++ for 0.41 extra wounds. Everyone here is stuck in 8th edition. The story of 9th is obsec, durability, and mobility.

Additionally, the invuln save could be the difference between dropping to 19 models vs 20 which is 23 attacks, or having to use auto-pass morale strat to green tide (5CP vs 3CP), or the squad being wiped off the map completely.

No offense, but you're coming off as very entitled with the way you're complaining about how no one is basically giving you the feedback that your confirmation bias is looking for. Our book has been out for a while now and even within the context of 9th edition we've had enough tournaments and data to see what works. Not only is your example skewed towards trying to make the deffskullz look better in CC (i.e. taking a PK for the Nob when realistically everyone takes killsaws instead of PK given that it's pretty much superior in almost any situation barring Death Guard units). You also conveniently take out any of the mainstay chapter tactics that you would realistically face while keeping the stats for Deffskullz for the Ork boy unit. You also don't factor that any marine unit engaging our boyz will almost always have some sort of reroll support, especially in the context of them getting the drop on our unit. The 6+ invulnerable really isn't that much of a deciding factor in keeping boyz blobs alive, otherwise the KFF would be spammed much more than it is. At best it saves a few boyz that will either be wiped out anyways or will be even further reduced by morale. That's why Ghaz works best with Goffs, since it really is a mixture of the Goff trait, the reroll one's and the Skarboyz buffs that tip a boyz squad into an actual consistently scary melee threat even in reduced numbers compared to regular boyz from other Klanz. You also fail to factor that you can't heal Ghazzy with a Painboy in a Deffskullz detachment, which is another reason behind being mono-Goffs.

If you're so determined to show off us old grognards off, go and try it! But there's a reason why competitively there's usually no Ghazzy involved in most Deffskull heavy lists in tournaments.

zoltan88 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

zoltan88 wrote:
This was more of a question about using Thrakka in a Deffskullz list. I prefer deffskullz in 9th for the extra obsec units and the 6++ mainly. The extra re-rolls are a nice bonus and especially good on the weapons I mentioned in my original post. Being able to throw an obsec unit of MANZ or nobz on an objective is very useful. Thrakka at the very least is a huge distraction that affects deployment phase and draws attention to him rather than the boyz. Deffskullz thrakka is just as effective at demoralizing the opponent in melee. But from the sounds of it, no one here does this so forget I asked.

"Distraction" and "Demoralizing" are just euphemisms for your opponent playing badly because he is afraid of a specific model though, not actual tactical assets. This can work, but you are essentially relying on your opponent to make mistakes. He should just be shooting Thrakka with big guns until he does 4 damage and keep shooting all the anti-infantry guns at your boyz.

When you run a warboss on a warbike with a footslogging army, are you giving him follow me ladz and bubble wrapping him with boyz?

The big thing the biker boss has over Thrakka is benefiting from LoS!, so you should always keep him near boyz so he can't be shot and arrives mostly unharmed. You hold him back until there is a good way to utilize his fighting power: take out a valuable target, clear out objectives or make a path for your boyz. With biggest boss, he usually survives his first fight and can get into a second, if he survives till late game, he can often flip objectives all on his own.
If I make him a warlord, I run him with Brutal But Kunnin' and a killsaw, so I can have the killa klaw for a MA big mek.
If you feel like you need the Waaagh! aura, just run a foot warboss instead of a big mek. For a third choice, I feel like a weird boy might be a good choice to fight all the powerful combatants you are facing so you can buff your boyz and debuff the enemy.

Form your explanations, it also feels like there is another issue, getting 60 orks blended in turn one isn't normal in 9th, and a 6++ would still cause you to lose 50 of those boyz. Maybe expand on what your game plan usually is?

I won that match. I am just offering an example of how squishy boyz are. Having 10 boyz left can be huge for stalling an army for another turn, and/or being able to use your green tide strategem. Way to ignore the fact that I was playing blood angles who can deploy 9" away from your units and nearly every other fact that I presented. If an army with that capability wants to kill 60 boyz turn 1, they will have no problem doing so.

This site sucks. There's 2-3 people that respond to every question with their advice based on the pre-text that they think orks are terrible and unplayable until we get our new codex. I literally asked if anyone has experience using ghaz in a deffskullz list and I still don't have an answer. Just multiple judgmental responses that assume I must not know what I'm doing because I'm asking an outside the box question.

I have made a list for deathskulls with Ghaz in it, but sadly i havent tried it yet. Im also not the most skilled nor the guy with the most models to make the best combinations of units. So sadly i have no knowledge of having Ghaz in anything BUT a Goff detatchment.


But ive seen Ghaz in different klans on youtube battle repports. I think i once saw him in a bad moonz group as well, holding the line in a chokepoint while the backline was shooting.

But i do think Ghaz in a deathskulls army could work. and i mean think, because i havent tried it. The idea of deathskulls infantry army with MANz and blobs of boyz or maybe even Nobz, which would be more duable due to the 6++ and then having Ghaz as well, might be an interesting way of going about it. While i do think the 6++ is great, im more about that reroll and Obsec from deathskulls though. I feel like thats where its at, for things like maybe buggies and such.

if im not mistaken, i think that Dangliboy ork youtuber showed a winning tournement list with a ghaz in a deathskulls company. But im not 100% sure if my memory is right on that point.

Jidmah wrote:Ugh, AoS pig-noses... :(

Looks like they are going to just relabel a whole bunch of AoS stuff "snakebites" and drop it on us.

These models don't exist in AoS.

Vineheart01 wrote:Not sure how i feel about them.
We already have 3 "biker" type units, though one is a vehicle atm for some reason and naturally this would be cavalry but similar roles regardless.
In addition....that looks like a fantasy ork with a 40k melee weapon. Which feels jarring.

It is a a Classic unit, Boarboyz, returning.

 addnid wrote:
Triple kill tank would probably work very well against TS

If you're using the bursta variant maybe? But then the gun feels fairly over kill for blasting apart the (currently one wound) troops. Though it fairs better against the termies.

The dakka variant on the other hand loses some of it's punch with the all is dust rule. Would you even be able to clear out a unit a turn? Don't get me wrong I adore killtanks, but against TS they may struggle.