Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Also, Ork boyz vs Wyches.

10 Boyz get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds and 6.5ish dmg vs wyches or 5dmg vs Marines

2x5 Wyches get 42 attacks, 28 hits, 9.3 wounds and 9.3dmg vs Orkz, or 4.6vs Marines.

Vs 30 S4 hits Orkz take 10 wounds and suffer 8.3 dmg, Wyches take 20 wounds and suffer 10dmg. Add in -1AP and its dead even, add in +1S and it heavily favors the Wyches. And since most CCW's are now getting -1AP Wyches are effectively as durable as Orkz with T5.

gungo wrote:
That question is dependant on what your taking.

Fair enough, I'll have to revise my collection then and see what benefits it more.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Should I get a Wurrboy or a Wyrdboy?
On one hand the Wyrdboy gives me da jump, but the wurrboy seems overall better.

In the previous edition I would just take a warboss and a wartrike, but that's illegal now and the KFF mek doesn't seem worth it anymore.

I'm honestly suspicious that the KFF rules and the Big Mek with KFF points cost are so bad precisely because they don't have a new model out for it still so this is their way of soft-legending the entry. I don't know anyone who would pay points solely for a 6++ aura caddy.

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Should I get a Wurrboy or a Wyrdboy?
On one hand the Wyrdboy gives me da jump, but the wurrboy seems overall better.

In the previous edition I would just take a warboss and a wartrike, but that's illegal now and the KFF mek doesn't seem worth it anymore.

I'm honestly suspicious that the KFF rules and the Big Mek with KFF points cost are so bad precisely because they don't have a new model out for it still so this is their way of soft-legending the entry. I don't know anyone who would pay points solely for a 6++ aura caddy.

except they do have a Big mek in Mega armor with a KFF. I'm surprised they didn't just say "umm...the megamek gets a 5++ because...umm...yes"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that note though...does anyone else find it weird that GW included a Character HQ in a meganobz box? Or does that maybe explain the hefty price of the meganobz box?

KFF is nerfed because it would be so powerful with buggies that the game would be unplayable.

-1 to hit, R6, 5++, ramshackle, repair... 9 Wounds.

90 fu..ing points sir.

I still believe it's worth taking kff for your buggy lists in the local tourney where you can't just hide most of the army behind blos.

I would be 99% agree with this. Against the majority of the armies, 85 points for a 6++ and turn2 5++ in your buggies or 115 points for that KFF + shooting relic is worth.

The point is, for those 100 points you've got another buggy, and 6++ use to be so bad. I think it needs test.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Should I get a Wurrboy or a Wyrdboy?
On one hand the Wyrdboy gives me da jump, but the wurrboy seems overall better.

In the previous edition I would just take a warboss and a wartrike, but that's illegal now and the KFF mek doesn't seem worth it anymore.

I'm honestly suspicious that the KFF rules and the Big Mek with KFF points cost are so bad precisely because they don't have a new model out for it still so this is their way of soft-legending the entry. I don't know anyone who would pay points solely for a 6++ aura caddy.

except they do have a Big mek in Mega armor with a KFF. I'm surprised they didn't just say "umm...the megamek gets a 5++ because...umm...yes"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that note though...does anyone else find it weird that GW included a Character HQ in a meganobz box? Or does that maybe explain the hefty price of the meganobz box?

Which is funny because they DID do that effectively with the Wazbom Blastajet getting a plane only 5++ KFF aura upgrade. So there would be precedence for doing that. Also, the character HQ in the meganob box I think was an experiment for GW at the time to see if they should bake HQ choices in some of them. I believe they did that as well with Harlequin Troupe Masters in the Troupe box but that idea was largely abandoned in favour of clampack HQ's like they do now.

Kebabcito wrote:
KFF is nerfed because it would be so powerful with buggies that the game would be unplayable.

-1 to hit, R6, 5++, ramshackle, repair... 9 Wounds.

90 fu..ing points sir.

The aforementioned Raider is 95pts comes with a 5++, has access to -1 to hit I believe, has 10 wounds, Not sure what the R6 means, and is an OT transport with a CCW as well. Its also BS3+ and WS4+.

A more like for like comparison would be the Ravager which isn't really seen in competitive games because its over priced, but its 140pts and has even better stats. M14, BS 3+, 11 Wounds, and it comes with 3 Dark Lances which are S8 -4AP D3+3 dmg. Against a T8 target with 3+ save it averages 2 hits, 1 wound and 5dmg. A scrapjet by comparison averages 6 shots from its Kannon for 2 hits, 1 wound and 2dmg, the Wing missile is 1 shot, 0.5 hits, 0.25 wounds and 0.5dmg the Big shootas are 5 hits, 1.6 wounds and 0.55dmg. So all told a single Scrapjet averages 3.05dmg a turn.

So I don't think a Buggy would be over powered if it also had access to a 100pt model which gave 3-6 buggies a 5++ invuln...especially since it would have a hard time keeping up with the buggies past turn 1.

And no, the KFF is absolutely not worth taking anymore.

To earn back its points (85 for regular KFF) you need to save 1 full buggy as opposed to just buying an extra. With just the 6++, Assuming the common anti-buggy weapons of D3+3 S8 weaponry which ignores armor saves you would need 2 on average to go through to kill a buggy So against 12 wounds from those weaponry you would lose 6 buggies. If you took the Big Mek with KFF you would only lose 5. Think about that, in order to make back your points you would need to save 2 of those rolls at which point you've already lost 5 buggies or 450pts. With the 5++ it would only take 6 wounds to earn back your points value, which also means you lost 2 buggies already

SemperMortis wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:
KFF is nerfed because it would be so powerful with buggies that the game would be unplayable.

-1 to hit, R6, 5++, ramshackle, repair... 9 Wounds.

90 fu..ing points sir.

The aforementioned Raider is 95pts comes with a 5++, has access to -1 to hit I believe, has 10 wounds, Not sure what the R6 means, and is an OT transport with a CCW as well. Its also BS3+ and WS4+.

A more like for like comparison would be the Ravager which isn't really seen in competitive games because its over priced, but its 140pts and has even better stats. M14, BS 3+, 11 Wounds, and it comes with 3 Dark Lances which are S8 -4AP D3+3 dmg. Against a T8 target with 3+ save it averages 2 hits, 1 wound and 5dmg. A scrapjet by comparison averages 6 shots from its Kannon for 2 hits, 1 wound and 2dmg, the Wing missile is 1 shot, 0.5 hits, 0.25 wounds and 0.5dmg the Big shootas are 5 hits, 1.6 wounds and 0.55dmg. So all told a single Scrapjet averages 3.05dmg a turn.

So I don't think a Buggy would be over powered if it also had access to a 100pt model which gave 3-6 buggies a 5++ invuln...especially since it would have a hard time keeping up with the buggies past turn 1.

And no, the KFF is absolutely not worth taking anymore.

Raider has not 20000 shoots like Scrapjet and has no 2D6 36" with no vision plus he has no ramshackle

KFF has 0 problems chasing buggies since he has no weapons and buggies cannot run plus its only within.

Kebabcito wrote:
KFF is nerfed because it would be so powerful with buggies that the game would be unplayable.

-1 to hit, R6, 5++, ramshackle, repair... 9 Wounds.

90 fu..ing points sir.

I mean if they kept the KFF like it was from before, you wouldn't be able to hold all the buggies within a 9" bubble that effectively without investing in a Morkanaut base (now way harder to fit in most lists as a LoW aux detachment). Or if they kept it a 5++ invuln save but the range was limited to units within 3" instead so you need localized multiple layers to make it cover most of your army. If a 5++ save is broken then hoo boy are you gonna get triggered when you see the Thousand Sons' new rules.

Kebabcito wrote:

Raider has not 20000 shoots like Scrapjet and has no 2D6 36" with no vision plus he has no ramshackle

KFF has 0 problems chasing buggies since he has no weapons and buggies cannot run plus its only within.

A raider is a transport so it gets 1 Dark Lance, the Ravager which is similar to the buggies has 3 dark lances, but its over priced by about 20pts. Against vehicles the ravager outperforms the scrap jet. Durability wise the Ravager has a natural 5++ save so its significantly more durable. To kill a Ravager you need 3 unsaved wounds from D3+3 weapons, with the 5++ that means it actually takes 4.5 unsaved wounds. The Scrapjets take 2.

As previously mentioned, the Ramshackle rule is heavily over valued because of how rare it is for opponents to dump low strength D2+ weaponry into buggies. I run into melta/lances/Chicken Lascannons more than any other anti-tank weaponry.

The KFF absolutely has a hard time keeping up with the buggies. Buggies have Movement 10-14. KFF Big Mek has movement 5. That means to stay close to the units he needs a 5+ advance every turn.

I also have no idea what you mean by 2D6 36". no vision

SemperMortis wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:

Raider has not 20000 shoots like Scrapjet and has no 2D6 36" with no vision plus he has no ramshackle

KFF has 0 problems chasing buggies since he has no weapons and buggies cannot run plus its only within.

A raider is a transport so it gets 1 Dark Lance, the Ravager which is similar to the buggies has 3 dark lances, but its over priced by about 20pts. Against vehicles the ravager outperforms the scrap jet. Durability wise the Ravager has a natural 5++ save so its significantly more durable. To kill a Ravager you need 3 unsaved wounds from D3+3 weapons, with the 5++ that means it actually takes 4.5 unsaved wounds. The Scrapjets take 2.

As previously mentioned, the Ramshackle rule is heavily over valued because of how rare it is for opponents to dump low strength D2+ weaponry into buggies. I run into melta/lances/Chicken Lascannons more than any other anti-tank weaponry.

The KFF absolutely has a hard time keeping up with the buggies. Buggies have Movement 10-14. KFF Big Mek has movement 5. That means to stay close to the units he needs a 5+ advance every turn.

I also have no idea what you mean by 2D6 36". no vision

I think the 2D6 36" no vision is a reference to the rukkatrukk squigbuggy's no LoS needed squig launcher gun.

But yeah agreed that ramshackle just requires a change in weaponry in the meta, and not even a radical one at that. Plasma weapons can still overcharge and D3+3 damage weapons exist sooooo....

Yes. A raider with 10 firstbornes inside broke me a Blastajet + Dakkajet

I think bikers might be a useful choice this edition.
They are both core and speedfreaks, so they benefit from both speedwaagh and waagh.
Waagh in particuliar seems appetizing because they always advance 6", and if you activate waagh they can charge after. Might result in a neat little T1 charge.

Yes. For me, bikers are the winners of the codex. They are well rounded and can do everything. Every build can make them stack buffs and become monsters.

Indeed. The only downside is that dakkagunz are dakka and not assault, so you can't advance and shoot.

Kebabcito wrote:
I would be 99% agree with this. Against the majority of the armies, 85 points for a 6++ and turn2 5++ in your buggies or 115 points for that KFF + shooting relic is worth.

The point is, for those 100 points you've got another buggy, and 6++ use to be so bad. I think it needs test.

You still get a decent character with bs4 dss or 6-wound kybork body that can also patch your buggies up.

While a tellyporta is pretty good, I think I'll need to run off to see how it goes.

It kind of annoys me that GW didnt go all the way with new things.

Like they "invented" a new weapon type except they didnt. its just a crappy version of rapid fire.

They could've gone something like: Okay so you get extra shots when within half range and you can still advance and shoot the weapons. But if you are within half range by the time you shoot, you do not suffer penalty to your shooting if you advanced.

That way you would actually have a new weapon type that would make sense and be interesting for orks. Instead they just made it a regular rapid fire weapon.. no wait, a worse version of rapid fire. Which doesnt work for Evil Sunz at all, so their advance and fire ability that was one of their trademarks is.. gutted.

It also seem weird that Shoota boys dont have more shots. it shouldnt be 2/3 shots, it should be 3/4. The only reason shoota boys has a lot of shots is because they are many. or can be many. Its not like they really fire anymore shots than any other 10 man squad. We only get that extra shot when within half range. And thats odd, considering orks normally have more shots than others, but apparently shoota boys werent allowed to have many shots to make up for lack of proper ballistic skill.

It seems really sad that they would disallow advance and firing, especially because thats the most orky thing to do.

Dakka guns deserve an FAQ that allows advance and fire.

Beardedragon wrote:
It kind of annoys me that GW didnt go all the way with new things.

Like they "invented" a new weapon type except they didnt. its just a crappy version of rapid fire.

They could've gone something like: Okay so you get extra shots when within half range and you can still advance and shoot the weapons. But if you are within half range by the time you shoot, you do not suffer penalty to your shooting if you advanced.

That way you would actually have a new weapon type that would make sense and be interesting for orks. Instead they just made it a regular rapid fire weapon.. no wait, a worse version of rapid fire. Which doesnt work for Evil Sunz at all, so their advance and fire ability that was one of their trademarks is.. gutted.

It also seem weird that Shoota boys dont have more shots. it shouldnt be 2/3 shots, it should be 3/4. The only reason shoota boys has a lot of shots is because they are many. or can be many. Its not like they really fire anymore shots than any other 10 man squad. We only get that extra shot when within half range. And thats odd, considering orks normally have more shots than others, but apparently shoota boys werent allowed to have many shots to make up for lack of proper ballistic skill.

It seems really sad that they would disallow advance and firing, especially because thats the most orky thing to do.

Dakka guns deserve an FAQ that allows advance and fire.

Yeah its definitely a missed opportunity and while its definitely not as rolling intensive as the old DDD! rule, I feel like they really half-assed it with the Dakka weapon change. I always find it bizarre that they're so afraid of giving Orks weight of fire weaponry with our low BS but then splurge on the shots when it comes baseline accurate platforms that exist like SM and Eldar. GW definitely don't know how math or probability works lol.

On the topic of warbikers I am toying with a bike heavy list meant to push them as hard as possible and use Ghaz to do so.



The idea is that if I get second turn pop KFF strat to try and have as many bikers survive as possible with T5 5++ and a -1 to hit on 3 wound models, it should be a decent number. Cast Ghaz waagh asap and advance the wartike as close to a big blob of units as possible. Trukks move up and dump their meganobz who can advance and charge to hit something decent if i'm reading killsaws right you should get 6 attacks per meganob under waagh, sadly no goffs trait due to the specialists mobs.

The bikers have to choose if they want to advance for easier charges or fire those 12str5 ap1 shots a piece. Possibly popping more dakka on one mob to try and nuke some backfielders. Hopefully the trike with follow me ladz can give at least 2 units an easier charge. The real question is do I make the biker detachment goffs or evil sunz? Evil sunz make it easier to get into proper dakka range with the extra 2+ to move, but goffs reward the advance and charge with exploding sixes and that wonderful str5 melee.

Hopefully I can pin the enemy in place long enough for the grots,and commandos to do objective work then eventually ghaz will get into combat. (possibly turn 3) or be able to react to whatever is happening in the midfield.

Thoughts?

Hi
Then looking throw the data sheet for the new models I come up with an idea, but I am not sure if it is valid.
Since the Kill Rig has the Character keyword it should be legit to be the Warlord or at least take traits and relics.
If this is the case, a Kill Rig with the Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy trait and Besthide Mantle relic would be a tough basted to take down...

 Nora wrote:
Hi
Then looking throw the data sheet for the new models I come up with an idea, but I am not sure if it is valid.
Since the Kill Rig has the Character keyword it should be legit to be the Warlord or at least take traits and relics.
If this is the case, a Kill Rig with the Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy trait and Besthide Mantle relic would be a tough basted to take down...

The Kill Rig has a small, specific list of relics and warlord trait it can use. For example, the Relics section says that VEHICLE models can only take relics that which refer to that keyword, such as Scorched Gitbonez. It can only take the Beastgob warlord trait, no others.

 xttz wrote:

 Nora wrote:
Hi
Then looking throw the data sheet for the new models I come up with an idea, but I am not sure if it is valid.
Since the Kill Rig has the Character keyword it should be legit to be the Warlord or at least take traits and relics.
If this is the case, a Kill Rig with the Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy trait and Besthide Mantle relic would be a tough basted to take down...

The Kill Rig has a small, specific list of relics and warlord trait it can use. For example, the Relics section says that VEHICLE models can only take relics that which refer to that keyword, such as Scorched Gitbonez. It can only take the Beastgob warlord trait, no others.

Aha, I see. Are you sure that this is the case for Warlord Traits as well?
Also, does this bring that the Wartrike cannot take any Relics/ Traits?

 Nora wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Nora wrote:
Hi
Then looking throw the data sheet for the new models I come up with an idea, but I am not sure if it is valid.
Since the Kill Rig has the Character keyword it should be legit to be the Warlord or at least take traits and relics.
If this is the case, a Kill Rig with the Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy trait and Besthide Mantle relic would be a tough basted to take down...

The Kill Rig has a small, specific list of relics and warlord trait it can use. For example, the Relics section says that VEHICLE models can only take relics that which refer to that keyword, such as Scorched Gitbonez. It can only take the Beastgob warlord trait, no others.

Aha, I see. Are you sure that this is the case for Warlord Traits as well?
Also, does this bring that the Wartrike cannot take any Relics/ Traits?

For Warlord traits, the Kill Rig is treated the same way as a named character so must have that specific trait. Wartrikes can take any trait as normal.

For relics, Wartrikes can't take the generic Ork relics but do have access to several clan-specific ones. Some of those *might* be usable by the Kill Rig too, I don't remember the exact details.

 xttz wrote:

 Nora wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Nora wrote:
Hi
Then looking throw the data sheet for the new models I come up with an idea, but I am not sure if it is valid.
Since the Kill Rig has the Character keyword it should be legit to be the Warlord or at least take traits and relics.
If this is the case, a Kill Rig with the Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy trait and Besthide Mantle relic would be a tough basted to take down...

The Kill Rig has a small, specific list of relics and warlord trait it can use. For example, the Relics section says that VEHICLE models can only take relics that which refer to that keyword, such as Scorched Gitbonez. It can only take the Beastgob warlord trait, no others.

Aha, I see. Are you sure that this is the case for Warlord Traits as well?
Also, does this bring that the Wartrike cannot take any Relics/ Traits?

For Warlord traits, the Kill Rig is treated the same way as a named character so must have that specific trait. Wartrikes can take any trait as normal.

For relics, Wartrikes can't take the generic Ork relics but do have access to several clan-specific ones. Some of those *might* be usable by the Kill Rig too, I don't remember the exact details.

okay, thanks fore clarifying

Hey guys. Ive never owned any warbikers before, but now ive bought 3 packages now seeing how they rock atm. Would you give the Nob a powerklaw or Big choppa? theres 2-AP difference between the two now, and the damage is the same. while the powerklaw gives you str x2 you get +2 str with the big choppa. Is the 5 extra points for a powerklaw really worth it? You also hit on 4s where you hit on 3s with the big choppa..

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys. Ive never owned any warbikers before, but now ive bought 3 packages now seeing how they rock atm. Would you give the Nob a powerklaw or Big choppa? theres only 1-AP difference between the two now, and the damage is the same. while the powerklaw gives you str x2 you get +3 str with the big choppa. Is the 5 extra points for a powerklaw really worth it? You also hit on 4s where you hit on 3s with the big choppa..

I do believe you're mistaken, Big Choppa is +2S and AP-1, not +3S and AP-2.
They are both damage 2, however.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys. Ive never owned any warbikers before, but now ive bought 3 packages now seeing how they rock atm. Would you give the Nob a powerklaw or Big choppa? theres only 1-AP difference between the two now, and the damage is the same. while the powerklaw gives you str x2 you get +3 str with the big choppa. Is the 5 extra points for a powerklaw really worth it? You also hit on 4s where you hit on 3s with the big choppa..

I do believe you're mistaken, Big Choppa is +2S and AP-1, not +3S and AP-2.
They are both damage 2, however.

yea str +2 my mistake. I knew it would give Nobz a strength of 7 but apparently my math failed me. a lot failed me when i had to write that comment for some reason. despite the fact i know the right stats in my head its not what i ended up writing.



Big choppas will hit more, with lower str and lower AP, but also cost less. I suppose powerklaws are better against tanks but the big choppa seem like a decent choice if you wanna go for as cheap as possible warbikers. Unless maybe the right choice is to simply give the Nob a normal choppa as well.

 Nora wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Nora wrote:
Hi
Then looking throw the data sheet for the new models I come up with an idea, but I am not sure if it is valid.
Since the Kill Rig has the Character keyword it should be legit to be the Warlord or at least take traits and relics.
If this is the case, a Kill Rig with the Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy trait and Besthide Mantle relic would be a tough basted to take down...

The Kill Rig has a small, specific list of relics and warlord trait it can use. For example, the Relics section says that VEHICLE models can only take relics that which refer to that keyword, such as Scorched Gitbonez. It can only take the Beastgob warlord trait, no others.

Aha, I see. Are you sure that this is the case for Warlord Traits as well?
Also, does this bring that the Wartrike cannot take any Relics/ Traits?

Luckily the two clans you're most likely to use a wartrike with have a good relic to put on a wartrike. Evil Sunz has rezmekka's redder paint and freebootas have the badskull banner.