Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Niiai wrote: Comparing anuthing to eradicators is dumb because they are clearly undercosted. Any comparison to any unit will be bad. In fact you should probably include as many eradicators as legal and then build your list from there in a 2000 point optimal list.
Also, you seems to have missed that drop pods do in fact arrive turn 1. One of, if not the only unit who does so.
I need a reference on this since in the matched play rules it clearly says (can't remember verbatim) that no reinforcements or reserves may arrive on the first game round. Nothing on the Drop Pod datasheet trump this rule as far as I can tell.
It does say that it can be set up in the reinforcements phase of the your 1st, 2nd, or 3rd turn, regardless of mission rules
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The line on the drop pod datasheet that spesifies it can arrive turn 1, 2 or 3 iregardless of scenario rules I belive. Unless the ruling changed from 8th edition to a deseptivly similar rule in 9th. I never played them in 8th, but acording to the internett it was a fact.
The old wording was : "Matched Play: This model and any units embarked aboard it are exempt from the Tactical Reserves matched play rule, except that if it and any units embarked aboard it have not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round, they count as having been destroyed." Now it uses the wording regardless of misison rules. I have not bothered to look further into this, but I am sure you can bring it to a YMDA.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/20 09:25:48
Some scenarios/missions say you can't place any units in reserves, I believe that exempt for Drop Pods are for these missions. Turn 1,2 or 3 is just there as you can bring it down turn 1 in open play or narrative play, but I would still say that the matched play restriction is stronger than that.
Teleport Strike also says you can set up a unit in the reinforcement step of one of your movement phases but I'm confident you can't bring down any terminators on the first game round (as per matched play rules quoted earlier).
You might be right. In that case it is a functional differense then how it worked in 8th. I made a YMDA on that.
For further posts, if you knew about how they worked before and how they would work differently now you would come over as better if you pointed out that it does in fact have a functional change from how it used to work to how it does work now.
Niiai wrote: Comparing anuthing to eradicators is dumb because they are clearly undercosted. Any comparison to any unit will be bad. In fact you should probably include as many eradicators as legal and then build your list from there in a 2000 point optimal list.
Also, you seems to have missed that drop pods do in fact arrive turn 1. One of, if not the only unit who does so.
I need a reference on this since in the matched play rules it clearly says (can't remember verbatim) that no reinforcements or reserves may arrive on the first game round. Nothing on the Drop Pod datasheet trump this rule as far as I can tell.
it specificly says in the rules it may be set up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd phase, specific rules trump general rules. it's been like this since marine codex 8.5
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Second Paragraf (Parafracing): Units that can deep strike on their datasheet do not follow these rules.
MPGT2020: Under misison rules.Page 6.
Under "10: Decleare Reserves and Transports" (Praraphrasing): Units can not arrive from reserves turn 1.
Drop pods says they ignore misison rules. So you can do it.
To summarice, nothing in the base rules prevents strategic reserves turn 1 if they already have a way to strategic reserves. What is preventing that are the misison rules spesificly. And drop pods say the ignore misison rules spesificly in that regard.
Niiai wrote: Comparing anuthing to eradicators is dumb because they are clearly undercosted. Any comparison to any unit will be bad. In fact you should probably include as many eradicators as legal and then build your list from there in a 2000 point optimal list.
Also, you seems to have missed that drop pods do in fact arrive turn 1. One of, if not the only unit who does so.
I need a reference on this since in the matched play rules it clearly says (can't remember verbatim) that no reinforcements or reserves may arrive on the first game round. Nothing on the Drop Pod datasheet trump this rule as far as I can tell.
it specificly says in the rules it may be set up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd phase, specific rules trump general rules. it's been like this since marine codex 8.5
Jump Pack troops and Terminator also have a "specific rule" that allows them to be setup as reinforcements, and there is a Reinforcements step on turn 1. You are saying that anything that can Deep Strike in the Codex Space Marines can do so in the first turn. Even if it very specifically says in Matched Play rules (Core book p. 282 paragraph 3) that it is not allowed.
I suppose the question is whether the rules for "Eternal War Mission Pack" are "Mission Rules" or not, since Drop Pods ignore "Mission Rules" in this regard. There is a header for "Mission Rules" in certain missions and I believe Drop Pods ignore these rules only, but YMMV.
Please do not read to much into what I am saying following: Jump Pack troops and Temrinators, in fact any troop that can be sett up elsewhere then on the battlefied, can arrive turn 1. This is a combination of the wording on the datasheet on the unit that allows it, and the rules governing that found here:
"MPGT2020: Page 80. Strategic Reserves.
Second Paragraf (Parafracing): Units that can deep strike on their datasheet do not follow these rules."
Then it talks about units that do not have that abilaty to be sett up elsewhere. They can pay CP to be sett up in strategic resrves and can not arrive turn 1, etc. What prevents all these strategic reserves on datasheets to arrive turn one is not in the core rules. It is in the mission rules.
This is adressed in the MPGT2020: Under misison rules.Page 6.
Under "10: Decleare Reserves and Transports" (Praraphrasing): Units can not arrive from reserves turn 1.
It can also be found in the big rulebook under matched play on page 281 is "10: Decleare Reserves and Transports" (Praraphrasing): Units can not arrive from reserves turn 1." Similarly page 333 for Crusade Mission pack.
If you do not play any of these missions packs nothing prevents temrinators from ariving from reserves turn 1. I would however suggest that if you make your own rules you follow the mission guidelines. However, the wording of the drop pods ignore mission rules regulating this. And lo and behold the emperor provides.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/20 10:48:01
Let's keep the conversation in the YMDC thread tbh. But after reading through that thread I might be inclined to change my position on the matter. HOWEVER, until Eradicators are fixed (it is inevitable at this point I suppose) I don't really feel too hyped about Drop Pod "melta bomb". Even if you can come down turn 1 it is still too easy to screen to deny that juicy melta rule. However it is obviously easier to acquire valid firing lines compared to 5" moving Eradicators...
In regards to Eradicators being better than everything, let's look at them compared to Attack Bikes.
A squad of 3x Eradicators with one Multi-Melta will be 130 points. They will get 2x more melta shots per turn. They can move through buildings without penalty. They also take up Heavy slots.
Attack Bikes will cost 165 for a squadron of 3 with Multi-Meltas. They move 14 instead of 5, have the same Toughness and one more wound each, have the same attacks, advance an automatic 6', and get twin boltguns.
I'm running 6x Attack Bikes in my White Scars army and zero Eradicators.
That said, I really like Heavy Melta Rifle Eradicators in Ultramarines.
Yeah, despite all the Eradicator hate right now, I don't see them going above 50-55pts unless attack bikes and the ATV also go up. And even with that, 60 tops.
I'd really hope the landspeeder doesn't go up, cause I think it's a touch too expensive vs the other options already. In terms of pure stats and fly it's passable at 15pts over an attack bike. The big problem is it's a noncore vehicle. If I'm losing reroll potential and giving up secondary points, I think it should be more like 60-65pts.
Do the landspeeder stil have flying? It has 18(!) in movement, with a 12" range for the +2 damage. So that is a 30" range for good damage, and 48" for regular damage. This is a lot.
My old landspeeders are melta/flamer from 5th edition. I think they are stil usable. Melta shots one one thing, flamers on another. If they attack I can overwatch.
But in a vacune, the superior speed will make sure bikes can shoot eradicators before eradicators can shoot bikes. In the landspeeder comprison the speeders cost to much to clean out eradicators.
I do not know. Eradicators and bikes are winners though. Landspeeders not so much. Unless I am missing something melta deveatators are not winners.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 21:58:43
I don't understand how people can't see the potential in Melta Devastators. A Melta Devastator is 2pts cheaper than an Eradicator but has just as many shots with the same range with the option to split fire. One model in the unit get +1 BS a turn and once per game a model in the unit can fire twice. You can place more models in the unit, meaning the enemy has to chew through 12 wounds before a Melta Devastator dies, meanwhile every 3 wounds is one less Melta rifle for the Eradicators. On top of that this unit can be placed inside a Droppod and your trying to tell me that a 5" move is more effective than the ability to arrive any where on the board 9" away. Is it just because the Multi Melta is a heavy weapon, because there are ways around that. I play Ironhands and don't have to deal with that in the first turn.
To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?"
If you can make a case for devestators I would love that. I saw one thread on eradicators quite early. When I did not see it after people had some time to look through the codex, so I started a new one
The attack bike comparison is good. And I am giving that one to the attack bikes.
The devestators I am not so shure. While cheaper and two shots yoy loose out on T5 and an ekstra wound. That is very relevant vs small small arms fire and overcharged plasma.
Hitting on 4's after moving is not sexy. And a drop pod is 70. Perhaps if you combined with with a character, or perhaps sole lithanies from a chaplain. But now it is not cheap anymore. For that price you could just take twice the number of eradicators.
On the other side of the choin, what makes good eradicator killers? The heavy version of the plasma primsris as a long range and D3 on their weapon. Sounds good. Redemtor dreadnough plasma the same.
MM Devastators vs Eradicators isn’t a good straight up comparison, the Devs will lose that one. Sure you can add some bolter guys to protect the meltas, but buying those wounds is going to cost about the same as simply buying another Eradicator. Which would you rather have for 40 pts, 2.2 bolters or a t5 body with 2 melta shots? The current argument for Devs is to make use of a pod/transport that primaris can’t or a weapon option primaris don’t have.
The straight comparison would be much more even if the Eradicator cost about the same as the mmdev + 1 bolter dev.
A Drop Pod isn't exactly free either. And some chapters (e.g. Space Wolves) can't take bolter guys as ablative wounds with Long Fangs anyway so there's that.
I mean I will probably try Melta devs in a drop pod at some point for sure. I don't play in tournaments so I'm not going to invest heavily into Eradicators since they will be nerfed at some point anyway. But as long as Eradicators exist with their current rules and points cost the comparison isn't really favorable for Devastators.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/21 09:37:00
Venerable Ironclad wrote: I don't understand how people can't see the potential in Melta Devastators. A Melta Devastator is 2pts cheaper than an Eradicator but has just as many shots with the same range with the option to split fire. One model in the unit get +1 BS a turn and once per game a model in the unit can fire twice. You can place more models in the unit, meaning the enemy has to chew through 12 wounds before a Melta Devastator dies, meanwhile every 3 wounds is one less Melta rifle for the Eradicators. On top of that this unit can be placed inside a Droppod and your trying to tell me that a 5" move is more effective than the ability to arrive any where on the board 9" away. Is it just because the Multi Melta is a heavy weapon, because there are ways around that. I play Ironhands and don't have to deal with that in the first turn.
10 Devastators with 4 Multimeltas. 1 Combi-Melta and a Cherub in a Drop Pod is 345 pts.
20 T4 3+ wounds, 8 24" meltashots (10 once), some with +1 BS.
8 Eradicators with 2 Multimeltas is 340 pts
24 T5 3+ wounds, 10 24" meltashots (20 when Obliterating).
The problem is that once you add some ablative wounds and the drop pod, you're essentially paying as much as you would for two moderate sized squads of Eradicators.
The Devastators have some ablative wounds sure, but they also have fewer wounds, and at lower T.
I'm not advocating Eradicator-spamm (I don't even use them myself), but I can see why people would go for Eradicators instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/21 15:17:43
Looking for advice on using the following White Scars setup for some fun:
Land Raider Crusader
x5 Assault Centurions
Apothecary
Use a combo of Stratagems to either set it up for a middle burst if going first or Outflanking it......then using Wind Rider to double move and Lightening Disembarkation to have 5 pop out to shoot x4 Hurricane Bolters + a MC Hurricane bolter on the Sergeant to hopefully annihilate a squad etc.
Is it just too much? I know the table setup and the army I face will dictate almost everything.
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
Da-Rock wrote: Looking for advice on using the following White Scars setup for some fun:
Land Raider Crusader
x5 Assault Centurions
Apothecary
Use a combo of Stratagems to either set it up for a middle burst if going first or Outflanking it......then using Wind Rider to double move and Lightening Disembarkation to have 5 pop out to shoot x4 Hurricane Bolters + a MC Hurricane bolter on the Sergeant to hopefully annihilate a squad etc.
Is it just too much? I know the table setup and the army I face will dictate almost everything.
It seems like 9th is more favorable to cheaper, smaller units with efficient firepower. And because of eradicators, I theorize (I haven't had a chance to try it out yet because of the pandemic) that multi-wound marine models without an invul with struggle to survive.
If the land raider doesn't get blown up turn 1, this deathstar will definitely kill the crap out of something. But then when everything is in the open, the eradicators will come out from the board edges on turn 2. Try some test rolls with what a couple of units of eradicators will do to 5 centurions and a land raider.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
bort wrote: MM Devastators vs Eradicators isn’t a good straight up comparison, the Devs will lose that one. Sure you can add some bolter guys to protect the meltas, but buying those wounds is going to cost about the same as simply buying another Eradicator. Which would you rather have for 40 pts, 2.2 bolters or a t5 body with 2 melta shots? The current argument for Devs is to make use of a pod/transport that primaris can’t or a weapon option primaris don’t have.
The straight comparison would be much more even if the Eradicator cost about the same as the mmdev + 1 bolter dev.
Agreed. Eradicators with just the base rifles pay 20 points per melta shot (30 per hit).
5 Devastators with 4 multi-meltas pay 21.25 points per melta shot. They also have the move and shoot penalty (so 42.25 per hit), 1 point less toughness, 1 more wound, and better transport options.
Devastators aren't a bad melta platform, but the problem is that Eradicators are just so much better at that role (and I'd argue Attack bikes are as well, trading some offensive efficiency - 41.25 per hit - for mobility and another wound per model over Eradicators). Where Devastators are best seems to be as a grav platform. There's not really much competition for the grav role.
Da-Rock wrote: Looking for advice on using the following White Scars setup for some fun:
Land Raider Crusader
x5 Assault Centurions
Apothecary
Use a combo of Stratagems to either set it up for a middle burst if going first or Outflanking it......then using Wind Rider to double move and Lightening Disembarkation to have 5 pop out to shoot x4 Hurricane Bolters + a MC Hurricane bolter on the Sergeant to hopefully annihilate a squad etc.
Is it just too much? I know the table setup and the army I face will dictate almost everything.
It seems like 9th is more favorable to cheaper, smaller units with efficient firepower. And because of eradicators, I theorize (I haven't had a chance to try it out yet because of the pandemic) that multi-wound marine models without an invul with struggle to survive.
If the land raider doesn't get blown up turn 1, this deathstar will definitely kill the crap out of something. But then when everything is in the open, the eradicators will come out from the board edges on turn 2. Try some test rolls with what a couple of units of eradicators will do to 5 centurions and a land raider.
I agree with the downside to Deathstars as this one is around 800 points. I love Centurions, but I also don't like anything that doesn't have a counter.....that is just plain boring to have an ultra unit on the board. Eradicators can come off the board, but so can anything White Scars has including the Deathstar.
I would either wait for it to show and use the Deathstar or something else to wipe them off the board. The Apothecary can also bring back a Centurion + heal one. The speed and Outflanking ability of White Scars should be able to get to Eradicators.
Eradicators are good, but many are Churching them up to be this boogeyman unit.....so often like the units before them, people find a way to make them go bye bye and quickly. :-)
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
Da-Rock wrote: Looking for advice on using the following White Scars setup for some fun:
Land Raider Crusader
x5 Assault Centurions
Apothecary
Use a combo of Stratagems to either set it up for a middle burst if going first or Outflanking it......then using Wind Rider to double move and Lightening Disembarkation to have 5 pop out to shoot x4 Hurricane Bolters + a MC Hurricane bolter on the Sergeant to hopefully annihilate a squad etc.
Is it just too much? I know the table setup and the army I face will dictate almost everything.
It seems like 9th is more favorable to cheaper, smaller units with efficient firepower. And because of eradicators, I theorize (I haven't had a chance to try it out yet because of the pandemic) that multi-wound marine models without an invul with struggle to survive.
If the land raider doesn't get blown up turn 1, this deathstar will definitely kill the crap out of something. But then when everything is in the open, the eradicators will come out from the board edges on turn 2. Try some test rolls with what a couple of units of eradicators will do to 5 centurions and a land raider.
I agree with the downside to Deathstars as this one is around 800 points. I love Centurions, but I also don't like anything that doesn't have a counter.....that is just plain boring to have an ultra unit on the board. Eradicators can come off the board, but so can anything White Scars has including the Deathstar.
I would either wait for it to show and use the Deathstar or something else to wipe them off the board. The Apothecary can also bring back a Centurion + heal one. The speed and Outflanking ability of White Scars should be able to get to Eradicators.
Eradicators are good, but many are Churching them up to be this boogeyman unit.....so often like the units before them, people find a way to make them go bye bye and quickly. :-)
Okay, so laying aside the eradicator argument (and armies that aren’t space marines won’t have eradicators anyway), maybe a more 9th edition question would be how many victory points can your deathstar score?
How many objectives can it hold? Depending on your chapter, you might be able to make the centurions obsec with strats, but one Eldar guardian or ork boy standing next to the land raider, and not doing anything, will prevent it from scoring an objective on its own.
If it’s in reserve, the deathstar can definitely roll onto the table and take whatever objective it can reach, but how many turns will it have to wait off the table and miss out on scoring points until then? Can the rest of your army survive and hold objectives without the deathstar for 1-3 turns, and will there be enough left of your army when the deathstar arrives to continue to hold 2-3 objectives for the rest of the game?
I don’t know if it would be possible because I can’t play the game currently. But if I were playing a xeno army, especially a fast one like Eldar, my temptation would be to let the deathstar hold an objective, feed it sacrificial MSUs, and then focus my attention on all the rest of the army (and the other objectives on the table). Maybe somebody who’s actually gotten to play the game can weigh in on how deathstars work in 9th.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
how do you guys equip your vanguard veterans? I run them as blood angels and doing remodelling, but equpiment should be quite the same.
I was thinking a bit expensive aproach:
sgt w/ relic blade & storm shield
3x dual lightning claws
3x power fist & storm shield
3x chainsword & inferno pistol (non BA take for me would be cheaper with bolt pistols)
Xirax wrote: how do you guys equip your vanguard veterans? I run them as blood angels and doing remodelling, but equpiment should be quite the same.
I was thinking a bit expensive aproach:
sgt w/ relic blade & storm shield
3x dual lightning claws
3x power fist & storm shield
3x chainsword & inferno pistol (non BA take for me would be cheaper with bolt pistols)
what do you think?
Not BA, but I run them with Lightning Claws and Shields and then a Thunder Hammer on the sergeant.
There's no actual need to have shields on more than half the squad, but I like them to "fight to the last man", and the additional 4-5 claw-attacks will probably not make a difference.
The Sgt. and one normal guy gets a thunder hammer and chainsword. Then the other 8 get chainswords and storm shields. I have the option to combat squad them with a lot of meat shields and a hidden hammer each. I'm going to build a couple with power fists instead of the hammers, and I'm really looking at the relic blade as well. Lastly, double lightning claws are very appealing. I will have to see if I've got enough terrain to obscure LOS and drop the shields.
I'm running them as White Scars, so I can pay CP to drop them into Assault doctrine at any time for 2 damage/4damage weapons. If my opponent has a lot of shooting and not as much close combat, I'll likely keep them as a squad of 10 for easier tri-pointing. If I'm facing a serious close-range threat I may likely combat squad them so that I can trade a smaller element of my army at a time.
Regardless, if you're putting a storm shield on a model, its going to be one of the first ones to die. Best to make those your cheaper, more expendable squad members instead of an expensive weapon.
- Chaplain bike full cheated, 3x3 outriders flanking the enemies
- Captainwith 5 bladeguards, ancient, apothecary and judicar front line
- Lieutenant with 5 assault intercessors and 3 aggressors looking for objective
- 2x5 assault intercessors into some objectives too
- 2x3 erradicators trying to deal with tanks
- eliminators deployment zone objectives
what do you think? I'm going white scars
Against hordes I've got a lot of choppy guys and 3 aggresors. Against MEQ I'm white scars, I can crush marines at turn 3. Against R8 I'll suffer, but erradicatrs are still not nerfed...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 13:38:43
Orks 5000p
2020/10/28 13:38:32
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
H all, don't know if this has been discussed, but I wonder is Droppod spam good again?
Now 9TH edition is mostly about mobility, catching objective and do actions. Meanwhile I heard that Droppod now allows you Null deploy once again, and Tactical Squad have 2W made them as tough as Intercessors. So is it a Droppod dominate list viable again?
2020/10/28 13:48:07
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Neophyte2012 wrote: H all, don't know if this has been discussed, but I wonder is Droppod spam good again?
Now 9TH edition is mostly about mobility, catching objective and do actions. Meanwhile I heard that Droppod now allows you Null deploy once again, and Tactical Squad have 2W made them as tough as Intercessors. So is it a Droppod dominate list viable again?
Huh. I did not know Drop Pod bypassed the null deployment rule. I know it bypasses turn 1 reserves.
Anyway, I do not think it would be very good. Not knowing how many units you want to deploy the 70 points per drop pod is quite steep. Say 5 or 6 drop pods in your list, that is 350/420 points less that you get units for. Secondly, if your opponent want to be up and close to you then you are paying 420 points to do them a favour.
Space Wolfs, Black Templars or Ultramarines would potensially be good for this. I own 7 drop pods, so please tell me if it is good. :-)
In my experience it was a very unpatient way to suround your enemy and die fast. Back in 5th edition.
3500
2000 
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
Orks 5000p 