9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica

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**nemesis464**

I’ve just back into the hobby and trying to pick a army- are pure firstborn armies pretty much dead?

I wanted to make a nostalgic army based off the older Dawn of War games with a bunch of units that I love the look of. Predators, box Dreads, Assault Marines, Razorbacks etc.

I don’t want to mix in any new Primaris element because I still can’t come to terms with them- will the army be completely useless?

**Verthane**

nemesis464 wrote:
I’ve just back into the hobby and trying to pick a army- are pure firstborn armies pretty much dead?

I wanted to make a nostalgic army based off the older Dawn of War games with a bunch of units that I love the look of. Predators, box Dreads, Assault Marines, Razorbacks etc.

I don’t want to mix in any new Primaris element because I still can’t come to terms with them- will the army be completely useless?

At the moment, there are several firstborn units that are absolute top competitive choices -- vanguard veterans with specific load outs, and devastator squads with certain load outs.

Was this intentional? Don't know.
Are most of the other original marines less competitive than the new "I bet you have to buy these instead of already having them" Primaris? Yes, they are.
Will those two units, or any others, be ultra-competitive come the next codex? No idea...not holding my breath LOL.

**Nevelon**

nemesis464 wrote:
I’ve just back into the hobby and trying to pick a army- are pure firstborn armies pretty much dead?

I wanted to make a nostalgic army based off the older Dawn of War games with a bunch of units that I love the look of. Predators, box Dreads, Assault Marines, Razorbacks etc.

I don’t want to mix in any new Primaris element because I still can’t come to terms with them- will the army be completely useless?

Anytime you are building an army out of part of a codex, and ignoring other parts you loose out on some perks. Which units are the go-to broken/efficient ones can shift. Some of those are primaris units right now.

Restricting yourself to firstborn might mean you are missing out, but the range is still deep enough to can cover most roles you need to fill to have a fun game. You might just have a slightly harder uphill battle against people with more optimized lists.

**Scoundrel80**

So im a fists player and as you probably know, times have been rough. Word has it, that we got a buff through this secondary, though:

Spoiler:

Ive been trying to put my head around how to build for this. We need several big core units for this to work out. They have to be big, because they have to be able to survive a turn for this to work. Preferably they should be fast too as this needs to be done early, if you want more than 4 points during a game.

Obviously this is a problem as big fast units are typically expensive and you dont want expensive units as action monkeys in your army. Honestly, I find this one very hard to succeed with. You can only do this once per turn (unlike say banners) so it should be rather easy for an opponent to just focus down the unit that tries to do it. then its back to scratch. Also, how many objectives are typically out there in no mans land? 2-4, right? and with the opponent also going for some of them I simply dont see how this can ever be a reliable 8. 4 maybe, and the buff it grants is decent. But still. Please tell me I am missing something obvious.

Any thoughts?

**RedX**

nemesis464 wrote:

I don’t want to mix in any new Primaris element because I still can’t come to terms with them- will the army be completely useless?

Thirding the statements above- not at all! You lose out on some options by not taking Primaris, but the Space Marine Codex has so many options that the army won't suffer unnecessarily. Bladeguard vets might be the best brawlers available, but Vanguard Vets are right up there- Eradicators offer excellent anti-tank firepower but Multimelta Devastators do too, with the benefit of being more mobile (vastly so, if Razorbacks and Drop Pods are taken into account).

This may change in an edition or two, but for the moment, at least, GW aren't taking the plunge into phasing out the Firstborn models- it'll likely be quite a while.

And even then, casual groups are going to see people playing Firstborn models with Primaris rules for... well, decades.

**No wolves on Fenris**

Quick question...

Do people find the Gladiator Lancer or the Valiant the better tank for anti-armour?

I’ve got two Gladiators to build and whilst one is definitely going to be a Reaper I’m unsure about the other

**tneva82**

Raw damage valiant and not even close. 4 shots at d6 damage is way better than 2 at d3+3. S10 isn't all that relevant vs s9. And then 2 multi meltas.

33% pricier but at least it can threaten something

**Nevelon**

Doesn’t look as cool, but I get that is 100% subjective.

Magnets if you can to future proof it.

**No wolves on Fenris**

Well I play Black Templars so I can add a third multi melta on to it as well so yeah maybe the Valiant.

Thanks

**Vatsetis**

THOSE Adding a new agent of chaos patrol of 1 DP and 10 bloodletter to a Black Legion list (2000 points) makes sense???

**tneva82**

Heretic! Burn him! Daemons ain't codex astartes compliciant!

aka maybe ask from chaos space marine thread and not loyalist marine thread

**H.B.M.C.**

[Sorry - wrong Marine thread]

**Scoundrel80**

so eliminators. They only cost 25 points now. I still think their shooting is rather atrocious but I find them interesting none the less.

Any ideas on how to use them well?

**Insularum**

Scoundrel80 wrote:
so eliminators. They only cost 25 points now. I still think their shooting is rather atrocious but I find them interesting none the less.

Any ideas on how to use them well?

3 ways to play
As Deathwatch, take big combat squads of them via the phobos kill team (more shots and obsec)
As super durable models to just sit in cover being a pain (camo cloak and armour of contempt)
As the fastest cheapest primaris infantry unit, move shoot move without any restriction on charging afterwards (las fusil and bolter perhaps)

**Scoundrel80**

ok. makes sense. so in case 3, you'd play sort of like just one unit to score points, move, harass and maybe even mov block? one unit typically?

we dont buy like 3 of these for the rather petty volume of fire or anything, right?

**Praetorius**

I've been kinda considering starting a White Scar army with the marine half of the Elite starter set. For now I'm just aiming for 500pts. I've got a primaris captain, 5 assault intercessors, and an outrider squad which leaves 165pts open.

My first two choices to round out the patrol are either a dreadnought or a vanguard veteran unit, but I'm open to other suggestions.

**Insularum**

Scoundrel80 wrote:
ok. makes sense. so in case 3, you'd play sort of like just one unit to score points, move, harass and maybe even mov block? one unit typically?

we dont buy like 3 of these for the rather petty volume of fire or anything, right?

Yeah 1 is enough, just a cheap unit to do whatever you don't want to waste a real unit on - move block, eat overwatch for another unit, harass objectives or just pop out of cover, shoot then hide away again.

**Vilgeir**

Insularum wrote:
Scoundrel80 wrote:
ok. makes sense. so in case 3, you'd play sort of like just one unit to score points, move, harass and maybe even mov block? one unit typically?

we dont buy like 3 of these for the rather petty volume of fire or anything, right?

Yeah 1 is enough, just a cheap unit to do whatever you don't want to waste a real unit on - move block, eat overwatch for another unit, harass objectives or just pop out of cover, shoot then hide away again.

I agree. I'm also a bit unsure about whether I want the third shot for the las fusil or the movement shenanigans myself. I actually do not mind if they're being targeted with incidental fire - they're so tanky that it might just be worth courting some fire their way so that it's wasted compared to other targets.

Of course, I play Imperial Fists (when I'm not playing Deathwatch), so take what I'm saying with a fist full of salt because we are the literal worst codex supplement chapter right now. Even then, I really can't decide whether I want to stick with the las fusil or go with the bolt snipers. I gain +1 damage in the first turn with them, and their deployment shenanigans often mean I can absolutely get in a good lane, but it's still only 2-3 shots. Alternatively, with the bolt snipers I end up with exploding sixes to hit, exploding wounds into MW, and ignore cover all at the same time. It feels like a fun choice I get to make before I realize I'm playing Imperial Fists and I'm just going to lose anyway xD

**RedX**

I've seen the Las-fusil Eliminators doing excellent service in holding 'non-contested' objectives- like home objectives and those the enemy decides not to push hard on- so long as there's Light Cover on them. They're stupidly hard to shift for their points cost, and can contribute even if at quite a distance from the main fight.

In my personal case, I play Iron Hands, so my Heavy Weapons slots are always full-up of much bigger and meaner things. Still, if a Marine army's hitting power is instead in the Elite or Fast Attack slots, a unit of these camping the home objective and/or infiltrating onto a midfield one is excellent.

**EviscerationPlague**

With the new Daemon codex and Votanns, I'm starting to feel that, if you're going the Intercessor route, the Assault Bolt Rifle is going be the best bet for less loss of efficiency.

**Vilgeir**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
With the new Daemon codex and Votanns, I'm starting to feel that, if you're going the Intercessor route, the Assault Bolt Rifle is going be the best bet for less loss of efficiency.

I agree. I feel like small boosts in AP just isn't worth committing to on certain platforms if it costs you shots.

**Scoundrel80**

Vilgeir wrote:
Insularum wrote:
Scoundrel80 wrote:
ok. makes sense. so in case 3, you'd play sort of like just one unit to score points, move, harass and maybe even mov block? one unit typically?

we dont buy like 3 of these for the rather petty volume of fire or anything, right?

Yeah 1 is enough, just a cheap unit to do whatever you don't want to waste a real unit on - move block, eat overwatch for another unit, harass objectives or just pop out of cover, shoot then hide away again.

I agree. I'm also a bit unsure about whether I want the third shot for the las fusil or the movement shenanigans myself. I actually do not mind if they're being targeted with incidental fire - they're so tanky that it might just be worth courting some fire their way so that it's wasted compared to other targets.

Of course, I play Imperial Fists (when I'm not playing Deathwatch), so take what I'm saying with a fist full of salt because we are the literal worst codex supplement chapter right now. Even then, I really can't decide whether I want to stick with the las fusil or go with the bolt snipers. I gain +1 damage in the first turn with them, and their deployment shenanigans often mean I can absolutely get in a good lane, but it's still only 2-3 shots. Alternatively, with the bolt snipers I end up with exploding sixes to hit, exploding wounds into MW, and ignore cover all at the same time. It feels like a fun choice I get to make before I realize I'm playing Imperial Fists and I'm just going to lose anyway xD

Yeah, im a fists player too. Crimsons, though, but same problems.

**NurglesR0T**

What's the general consensus these days with Intecessor squads - better to go 5 man MSU or full 10 man squads?

**Nevelon**

NurglesR0T wrote:
What's the general consensus these days with Intecessor squads - better to go 5 man MSU or full 10 man squads?

In general, there are very few reasons to go for full10 man squads. Buffs and strats being the big ones. Generally the flexibility, free sarge, and resistance to morale/overkill make MSU the better choice.

I’m not in sync with the tourny crowd, so someone out there might be rocking the world with full squads. I’ve just never heard of it in the circles I frequent.

**Nightlord1987**

I try to bring full 10 and combat squad as needed. I play UM and usually bring a Chaplain, so Litanies are better on a big unit.

**EviscerationPlague**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
I try to bring full 10 and combat squad as needed. I play UM and usually bring a Chaplain, so Litanies are better on a big unit.

But what Litanies would you want to use on Intercessors vs a more elite unit?

**Nightlord1987**

Recitation of Focus works out for me but I don't play competitively. I use blocks of marines with dreadnought and flyers.

**apogats**

I kind of feel the same. I don't play competitively, but Recitation of Focus is pretty good, and so is Catechism of Fire. Catechism might be more beneficial but it is trickier to use.

From an optimization standpoint, Intercessors aren't really good enough to justify spending an extra 100 points on the squad though.

One thing I used to like to do in days past was to take a 10 man intercessor with the 2 Astartes Grenade Launchers, buff them up as much as possible (Catechism, Recitation of Focus, Captain, etc...) and then plan on spending the 2 cp for Rapid Fire so that my ultra-buffed unit could shoot twice. It was pretty fun but with less CP available in Nephelim alongside the fact that Intercessors are just easier to kill for most opponents than they used to be.... I've stopped using this strategy.

You could still do it for a laugh and maybe in a friendly game it could still be effective, but if I'm being totally honest it isn't worth it.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Are intercessors crap now? I was looking at the reddit discussion of the new battleboxes and I saw lots of people complaining about the 20 intercessors in the salamanders box.

**Arcanis161**

I wouldn't say they're complete garbage. They just aren't the most efficient thing out there for either killing or staying power.

The new Arks of Omen detachment allows you to forgo bringing troops altogether, so most people probably won't be bringing Intercessors.

Been awhile since I've looked at the SM codex, but I recall the only Obsec outside of the Troops choices is a Warlord Trait. So I guess Marine players will be trying to clear the board instead of focusing on taking objectives quickly?