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 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Are intercessors crap now? I was looking at the reddit discussion of the new battleboxes and I saw lots of people complaining about the 20 intercessors in the salamanders box.

Crap is a harsh description. The intercessors dies very easy compared to what you want, and does not kill a lot of stuff. What remains is standing on objectives. And that is what it does. The only troop choise that is exciting are the two types of infiltraitors. The melee intercessors can be good in some subfactions and they can trade VS other low impact unit.

The salamanders want weapons with the fire and melta keyword and the primaris marine kits are not so good for that.

In the end the box is fine to OK. But a bit disappointing.

It's kind of a case of bad timing. The battleforce boxes were announced at almost the exact same time as the Arks of Omen competitive season. In Arks of Omen the incentive to take troops choices looks like it has been completely removed (unless there is some as-of-yet unknown reason).

Previously at least your intercessors filled out your mandatory slot, but now they don't even really do that.

I'd say its not too harsh to say they're crap now. Maybe things will change in the future, maybe even in the near future... but it's looking pretty grim for the Intercessor in the upcoming season.

Also, how many people spammed intercessors? Even if you were taking them to fill troop slots you needed 3x5 man squads, so the 20 from the Salamander box would be more than you need. And that’s assuming you didn’t already have some from another bundle.

Unless you are some kind of mad loon building up a primaris battle company how many intercessors does one person need?

I can imagine Intercessors to return when AoC is gone and the rumoured point drops occur. Currently the heavy bolt rifle is not worth it for what is basically -1 AP on a heavy profile, especially with DG around in the meta that will cancel the 2D profile. The normal bolt rifle is basically just a bolter with a bigger range against AoC targets which is also nothing that gets serious work done. Assault Bolters are the only one that somehow doesn’t have to bother as they never had AP anyway and only rely on volume of fire.

In my opinion AoC might have made Marines more durable but also crippled their anyway limited offensive capabilities. It also diminished the boon from Combat Doctrines restricting the impact of the rule on the faction.

Free wargear on tactical squads. I'll still take forward deployers, but I think tacs just became much more viable as a point holding fire-support squad. I'll take 'em over intercessors.

Vortenger wrote:
Free wargear on tactical squads. I'll still take forward deployers, but I think tacs just became much more viable as a point holding fire-support squad. I'll take 'em over intercessors.

Heavy disagree. Unless you're taking a Grav Cannon, the need to be closer with the new objective rule means you're going to want the slightly better melee capabilities. And even then, since dead models can't hold objectives why not just go for Devastators with free Grav Cannons?

Went trough the update and compared them to the current (old) costs and.

TLDR: Most Primaris units went down in cost to compensate loss for AoC while Firstborn units are all over the place, some even becoming more expensive without AoC (certain Centurion-loadouts), with some kits costing waaay less (Sternguard stacked with melta-weaponry.)

---HQ---

*Captain; No change. Free Wargear except TH is cheaper and JP is still +25.

*TA Captain; No change. Free Wargear except TH which is cheaper.
(Example: TA Captain /w TH, SS went from 120 to 105 pts.)

*Captain on Bike: No change. Free Wargear except TH which is cheaper.

*Phobos Captain: -10 pts

*Gravis Captain: -10 pts

*Captain /w MCHBR: -10 pts

*Chaplain: -10 pts. Free Wargear except JP.

*TA Chaplain: -10 pts.

*Librarian: -10 pts. Free Wargear except JP.

*Phobos Librarian: -10 pts.

*TA Librarian: -10 pts, Free Wargear.

*Lt: No change. Free Wargear except JP.

*Phobos Lt: -10 pts.

*Riever Lt: -10 pts.

*Primaris Captain: -10 pts. Free Wargear.
(Ex: Primaris Captain /w Relic Shield-kit went from 105 pts to 80 pts.)

*Primaris Chaplain: -10 pts.

*Primaris Chaplain on Bike: -10 pts.

*Primaris Librarian: -10 pts

*Primaris Lt: -10 pts. Free Wargear.
(Ex: Primaris Lieutenant /w Volkite-kit went from 90 to 65 pts.)

*Primaris Techmarine: -10 pts.

*Techmarine: No change, but Plasma Cutter is now free...yay?

---Troops---

*Assault Intercessors: -2 ppm + free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Assault Intercessors /w TH, Plasmapistol went from 215 to 170 pts.)

*Intercessors: -2 ppm + free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Intercessors /w TH, 2 AGL went from 230 to 180 pts.)

*Heavy Intercessors: -5 ppm + free Heavy X.
(Ex: 5 Heavy Intercessors /w HB went from 150 to 115 pts.)

*Incursors: -3 ppm + free mine.
(Ex: 10 Incursors /w mine went from 220 to 180 pts.)

*Infiltrators: -4 ppm + free upgrade.
(Ex: 10 Infiltrators /w Helix went from 250 to 200 pts.)

*Tacticals: No change, but free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Tac's /w TH, MM, combi-melta went from 135 to 90 pts.
(Ex: 10 Tac's /w TH, MM, combi-melta, melta went from 235 to 180 pts.)

---Dedicated Transport---

*Drop Pod: No change...

*Rhino: No change, but free stormbolter. Yay?

*Razorback: No change. Free weapons.
(Ex: Razorback /w Twin AC went from 130 to 100.)

*LS Storm: No change.

*Impulsor: -10 pts + free wargear.
(Ex: Impulsor /w Shield Dome, IHHS went from 130 to 100 pts.)

---Elites---

*Aggressors: -10 ppm, free FGL.
(Ex: 3 Aggressors /w Boltstorm went from 135 to 90 pts.)
(Ex: 3 Aggressors /w Flamestorm went from 120 to 90 pts.)

*Ancient in TA: -10 pts.

*Apothecary: -10 pts.

*Bladeguard Ancient: -10 pts.

*Bladeguard Veterans: No change, but free pistol to the Sgt, yay.
They technically never gained AoC to begin with so.

*Assault Centurions: +5 ppm(!), free wargear.
(Ex: 6 Centurions /w 2x Flamers, CAL went from 330 to 360 pts.
(Ex: 6 Centurions /w 2x Meltas, Hurricane Bolters went from 420 to 360 pts.
Guess Flamers + CAL is a dead build now. More expensive and lost AoC. All hail our melta+hb overlords...

*Company Ancient: -10 pts.

*Company Champion: -5 pts.

*Company Veterans: No change, no free wargear, nothing.
Clear indicator that this unit is about to get removed.

*Contemptor Dread: -10 pts

*Dread: No change, free wargear.
(Ex: Dread /w AC, stormbolter stayed at 120 pts.
(Ex: Dread /w Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer went from 145 to 120 pts.)

*Venerable Dread: No change, free wargear.
(Ex: Venerable /w AC, stormbolter stayed at 135 pts.)
(Ex: Venerable /w Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer went from 160 to 135 pts.)

*Ironclad: No change, free wargear.
(Ex: Ironclad /w meltagun, stormbolter stayed at 135 pts.)
(Ex: Ironclad /w 2 HF, 2 HKM, IAL went from 160 to 135 pts.)

*Redemptor: No change, but free IRP and OGC so -10 pts if you equip those.

*Invictor: -20 pts

*Judiciar: -10 pts.

*Primaris Apothecary: -10 pts.

*Reivers: -2 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Reivers /w Hooks went from 190 to 160 pts.)

*Relic Terminators: -1 ppm, free wargear.

*Scouts: -2 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Scouts /w Cloaks and Snipers went from 80 to 60 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Scouts /w Cloaks, Shotguns, TH, combi-melta went from 185 to 120 pts.)

*Servitors: No change.

*Sternguard: No change, free wargear(!).
(Ex: 10 Sternguard /w just SIBs stayed at 200 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Sternguard /w 2 MM, 8 Combi-melta and PF went from 290 to 200 pts!)

*Assault Terminators: No change, free wargear(!).
(Ex: 5 LC Termies /w Teleport went from 170 to 165 pts.)
(Ex: 5 TH Termies /w Teleport went from 220 to 165 pts.) - All hail our new TH/SS-terminator overlords.

*Terminators: -5 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Terminators /w Cyclone ML, Teleport went from 220 to 165 pts.)

*Vanguard: +1 ppm(!), some wargear cheaper, some free.
(Ex: 10 Vanguard /w JP, 10 SS, 9 Powerswords, 1 Relicblade went from 310 to 280 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Vanguard /w JP, 9 Powerswords, 10 Plasmapistols, Relicblade went from 307 to 230 pts.)

*Veteran Intercessors: -2 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Veterans /w TH, 2 AGL went from 250 to 200 pts.)

*Primaris Ancient: -10 pts.

---FA---

*Assault Squad: No change, but free wargear.

*Attack Bikes: No change, MM-upgrade is free.

*Bike Squad: No change. Free wargear, much cheaper MM-upgrade.

*Inceptors: No change. Plasma Exterminator is free so feels like an autopick.
(Ex: 6 Inceptors /w PE went from 300 to 240.)

*Invader ATV: -10 ppm. MM is now a free upgrade.
(Ex: 1 Invader /w MM went from 85 to 70 pts.)

*LS Tornado: No change, free wargear.

*LS Typhoon. No change, free wargear. (still overpriced)

*Land Speeder. No change, free wargear.

*Outriders: -10 ppm.
(Ex: 3 Outriders went from 135 to 105 pts.)

*Scout Bikers: No change. Free wargear on Sgt. (still rubbish.)

*SS Hailstrike: -10 pts.

*SS Hammerstrike: -20 pts.

*SS Thunderstrike: -15 pts.

*Suppressor Squad: -10 pts.

---Heavy Support---

*Devastator Centurions: +15 ppm(!), free wargear.
(Ex: 3 Dev Cents /w Grav went from 195 to 210 pts.)
(Ex: 3 Dev Cents /w HBs went from 225 to 210 pts.)
(Ex: 3 Dev Cents /w LCs went from 255 to 210 pts.)

*Devastators: +5(!) ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Dev's /w 4 LCs went from 150 to 115 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Dev's /w 4 LC's went from 240 to 230 pts.)

*Eliminators: No change.

*Eradicators: No change. MM now free so feels like an autopick.

*Firestrike: No change. Twin Las-talon is now free upgrade as it always should've been.

*Gladiator Lancer: -25 pts, free wargear.
(Ex: Lancer /w IHS, IRP, AL went from 165 to 125 pts.)

*Gladiator Reaper: -30 pts, free wargear.
(Ex: Reaper /w IHS, IRP, AL went from 195 to 150 pts.)

*Gladiator Valiant: -30 pts, free wargear.
(Ex: Valiant /w IHS, IRP, AL went from 215 to 170 pts.)

*Hellblasters: -3 ppm.

*Hunter: No change, but free stormbolter!!!

*Stalker: No change, but free stormbolter!!!!!!!!

*Land Raider Godhammer/Crusader/Redeemer: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 35 pts cheaper.)

*Predator Annihilator/Destructor: No change. Free/cheaper sponsons, so 20 pts cheaper if you take 2 Lascans and 30 pts cheaper if you take HB. Dont forget the free stormbolter!

*Repulsor: -50(!) pts. Free wargear.
(Ex: Repulsor /w Twin Lascan, OGC went from 295 to 220 pts.)

*Repulsor Executioner: -50(!) pts. Free wargear.
(Ex: Repulsor Exec /w HLD, IHS, IRP went from 320 to 250 pts.)

*Thunderfire Cannon: No change.

*Vindicator: No change, but free wargear, so -15 pts if you take a siegeshield and stormbolter.

*Whirlwind: No change, free stormbolter and vengeance launcher is a free sidegrade (so -15 pts if you used to take those.)

---Fliers and Fortifications---

*Stormhawk Interceptor: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 45 pts cheaper.)

*Stormraven Gunship: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 30 pts cheaper.)

*Stormtalon Gunship: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 20 pts cheaper.)

*Hammerfall Bunker: -75(!) pts.

So that's about it.

I'd say the winners are the units who gained a massive pointcost reduction to compensate for the loss of AoC, especially in conjunction with free wargear - while the loosers are the units who gained no or a very tiny reduction to compensate for the loss of AoC. There is a heavy theme among the winners I'd say; It's very Primaris-focused.

Winners:
- Characters who use Storm/Relic-shields and became cheaper
- Assault Intercessors
- Intercessors
- Incursors
- Infiltrators
- Heavy Intercessors
- Aggressors
- Maxed out Tacticals.
- Maxed out Scouts.
- Sternguard with certain loadouts. (all the melta you can bring.)
- Vanguard with certain loadouts. (powerweapons+plasmapistols)
- TH/SS-Terminators
- Terminators
- Reivers (I guess?)
- Hammerfall Bunker.
- Repulsors
- Gladiators
- Anything Multimelta-related.

Loosers:
- Company Veterans.
- L.Claw Terminators.
- Sternguard with certain loadouts (Special Issue Boltgun-loadout.)
- Various Dreads with certain loadouts. (lost AoC without becomming cheaper.)
- Rhinos.
- Drop Pods.
- Scout Bikers.
- Bikers.
- Assault Squad.
- Inceptors /w Assault Bolters.
- Cheapest Land Speeder loadouts.
- Eliminators
- Firestrike Turret.
- Stalkers.
- Hunters.
- TFC.
- Whirlwind.
- Dev Centurions /w Grav.
- Assault Centurions /w Flamers.

Middling:
- Everything else. (Basically everything that became slightly cheaper - but lost AoC.)

Note that I'm not saying that "winners" are suddenly good or that "loosers" are suddenly bad, just that they (imo) ended up better or worse with this update.

It freed up 430pts in my 2k list

The Hammerfall seems a bit too bonkers at 75. Doesn't it have like 4 Heavy Bolters on top of the ML?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
The Hammerfall seems a bit too bonkers at 75. Doesn't it have like 4 Heavy Bolters on top of the ML?

It was very overpriced at 175 even with AoC but 100 even without AoC might be too cheap.

It doesnt technically have 4 HBs but fires one HB at everything it can see. Only BS 4+ though, so it degrades fast and an immobile weaponplatform is very either hit or miss depending on how much LoS-blocking terrain you use.

I'm gonna try mine out asap though, and at least at 100 pts I wont feel like I'm purposefully making my list weaker.

Well, seeing the free wargear points differential, the sky isn't exactly falling.....

I just kinda hope they show some love for the humble Chainsword in the next codex.

I'm not a fan of Thunder Hammers (visually) in my army, but i would be tempted to hit the Bitz box for free power swords on all my sergeants now.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, seeing the free wargear points differential, the sky isn't exactly falling.....

I just kinda hope they show some love for the humble Chainsword in the next codex.

I'm not a fan of Thunder Hammers (visually) in my army, but i would be tempted to hit the Bitz box for free power swords on all my sergeants now.

Just count your Chainswords as Power Swords my dude. Nobody is gonna care and they'll even understand.

@minscs2

I don't think your evaluation of LC terminators is fair yes they are defensively worse but AP2 is now a lot stronger into marines and sisters lists

U02dah4 wrote:
@minscs2

I don't think your evaluation of LC terminators is fair yes they are defensively worse but AP2 is now a lot stronger into marines and sisters lists

And you know what's even stronger than that? A 1+. Granted there's a place for getting a total of 5 shred attacks on the charge, but Vanguard would be better for that.

U02dah4 wrote:
@minscs2

I don't think your evaluation of LC terminators is fair yes they are defensively worse but AP2 is now a lot stronger into marines and sisters lists

AP2 might be stronger against factions that used to have AoC, but it's the same against everyone else.
(Also, this argument can be made for everything in the game with AP1 or better. "It's now stronger against things that used to have AoC"... well yes? It's the same for everyone.)

Meanwhile, loosing AoC on a 2+ save unit is baaad (2+ benefited the most from AoC so they now lose the most when it's removed) - and they didn't even get compansated for it in some way, unlike most units.
Meanwhile meanwhile, TH/SS-terminators (who didn't even benefit from AoC) went down in cost by a fair bit.

Nah, LC Terminators def. drew one of the shortest straws in this update imo.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
@minscs2

I don't think your evaluation of LC terminators is fair yes they are defensively worse but AP2 is now a lot stronger into marines and sisters lists

And you know what's even stronger than that? A 1+. Granted there's a place for getting a total of 5 shred attacks on the charge, but Vanguard would be better for that.

You don't have a +1hit strat for VV - they both have there place on balance is it a negative probably but I don't think it's much of one given 1/3 of the meta had AoC and LC were already good vs most of the rest

U02dah4 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
@minscs2

I don't think your evaluation of LC terminators is fair yes they are defensively worse but AP2 is now a lot stronger into marines and sisters lists

And you know what's even stronger than that? A 1+. Granted there's a place for getting a total of 5 shred attacks on the charge, but Vanguard would be better for that.

You don't have a +1hit strat for VV - they both have there place on balance is it a negative probably but I don't think it's much of one given 1/3 of the meta had AoC and LC were already good vs most of the rest

And you're saying you'd use the +1 hit strat on LC Terminators vs TH Terminators?

No im saying that LC terminators didn't get worse I agree that TH terminators are usually better in most circumstances (in reality its target dependent offensively and vs certain factions LC may be preferrable) however an argument that TH terminators have got better due to points reduction does not mean LC terminators have got worse.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Went trough the update and compared them to the current (old) costs and...

Thank you for this post. It was very helpful.

how do we feel about AoO and tactical marine spam? Units of five with one melta gun and one Multimelta. 90 points. Sticky Obsec, kan fit ten in a rhino if you want etc. etc.

Just seems good value and decent punch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
good screening and amazing board control too.

^Always spam Tacticals . Multimeltas and Grav Cannons are my choices for heavys, Melta and Plas the choices for combi.

Sternguard are great, as well as Devastators too. Rrmember that your Sternguard can buy full squads and then Combat Squad at the beginning of the game for max MSU if you want it too. You can effectively make Tacticals+1 with Sternguard for a few extra points.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rrmember that your Sternguard can buy full squads and then Combat Squad at the beginning of the game for max MSU if you want it too. You can effectively make Tacticals+1 with Sternguard for a few extra points.

'

Only do this if you've run out of Elite-slots though. 2x5 Sternguard is superior to combatsquadding 1x10 in every way (extra Sgt. with all that entails + heavy weapons if you need 'em.)

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rrmember that your Sternguard can buy full squads and then Combat Squad at the beginning of the game for max MSU if you want it too. You can effectively make Tacticals+1 with Sternguard for a few extra points.

'

Only do this if you've run out of Elite-slots though. 2x5 Sternguard is superior to combatsquadding 1x10 in every way (extra Sgt. with all that entails + heavy weapons if you need 'em.)

Well, it's less of an Elites choice thing and more of a Rule Of Three thing, unless you're really packing your Elites section.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
how do we feel about AoO and tactical marine spam? Units of five with one melta gun and one Multimelta. 90 points. Sticky Obsec, kan fit ten in a rhino if you want etc. etc.

Just seems good value and decent punch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
good screening and amazing board control too.

I've thought about it, and for me personally, since I play Dark Angels, it's probably not something I'm likely to want to do. Iron Hands, however, will love it since they can ignore the movement hit penalty with heavy weapons while they are in Devastator Doctrine (and now they can just stay in that all game!). If I was going to run a Greenwing/mixed-Wing list, I would probably take Tacticals all day over Intercessors and run them exactly like this just because it's free real estate. And indeed Greenwing could perhaps do work for DA now that Inceptors with plasma are dirt cheap. 6 guys only cost 240 points and get 12d3 S8 AP-3 D3 shots (accounting for Weapons from the Dark Age), potentially with full hit rerolls if Azrael is around. That is incredibly spicy! Generally for DA I think Ravenwing/Deathwing are going to be the go-tos, though.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Always spam Tacticals . Multimeltas and Grav Cannons are my choices for heavys, Melta and Plas the choices for combi.

Sternguard are great, as well as Devastators too. Rrmember that your Sternguard can buy full squads and then Combat Squad at the beginning of the game for max MSU if you want it too. You can effectively make Tacticals+1 with Sternguard for a few extra points.

Sternguard are actually disgusting, because for all the crap that CAAC players like to retort regarding PL based on "nobody would use a unit maxed on upgrades", it's something that has been done with Sternguard since their inception when they PAID for the Combi-Weapons.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Always spam Tacticals . Multimeltas and Grav Cannons are my choices for heavys, Melta and Plas the choices for combi.

Sternguard are great, as well as Devastators too. Rrmember that your Sternguard can buy full squads and then Combat Squad at the beginning of the game for max MSU if you want it too. You can effectively make Tacticals+1 with Sternguard for a few extra points.

Sternguard are actually disgusting, because for all the crap that CAAC players like to retort regarding PL based on "nobody would use a unit maxed on upgrades", it's something that has been done with Sternguard since their inception when they PAID for the Combi-Weapons.

The sad part is that I only got used to taking my Sternguard without upgrades, to keep costs down, during 8th ed. I guess I'll start digging into my bag of prepped combi-melta/plas that were such good service during 5th, 6th and 7th, and put them back into service.

Edit: But oh yeah, I agree, it's about the dummest thing ever.

With all the point cuts to the tanks - does a mechanized list look viable? Specifically, Primaris only - so Impulsors, Gladiators, Repulsors, etc.

It looks like Iron Hands.

how do we like tactical spam now? im thinking like.. 10x5 mans with melta, hammer and multimelta and sticky obsec? its 900 points. 100 wounds behind t4/3+. you could put some of them in rhinos or whatever. idk if its strong, but I sort of want to try it.

 Niiai wrote:
It looks like Iron Hands.

Well, yes... But I was hoping for more specifics.