How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base?

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**Dudeface**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
ANGRY MARINE NOISES

The supreme irony being that you consider those units to be "Not good" when other armies would LOVE to have them Since you singled out Hellblasters lets take a look at them currently.

33pts for a Primaris stat line and a 30' Plasma Gun and easy access to a plethora of re-rolls so you never really have to worry about super charging. In your opinion that "sucks".

For comparison, the ork equivalent to a Hellblaster is a Flash Git which is 32pts with a Nob stat line (except BS4) and a 24' Heavy 3 Snazz gun which is S6 -2 2D. To get a reroll you have to pay 5pts for an ammo runt and can only have 2 in a 10 man unit. To keep them alive more than a single turn and have them in range you need to have them in a vehicle or deep striking which regardless lowers your BS back to standard 5+. I don't consider them competitive But I do consider them ok-goodish.

Just because you have a feth ton of other great options doesn't make them "not good" it just means you guys are spoiled for choice.

I think there's a bit of grass is greener going on there. Those Hellblaster re-rolls ain't free nor guaranteed safe (1 in 36 unless being affected by additional modifiers). They have to over charge to get that precious D2. They are nearly as fragile Flash Gitz but don't really have that great of transport options to hide them (Impulsor limits to 6, 5 if you want that Captain or a Repulsor) and don't really have deep strike options. Sure, they have a 30 inch range, but I haven't ever found that to be that great to keep them alive, and if they move they are down to 1 shot with the RF version.

On the other hand, I think you are short selling Flash Gitz a bit. They got the standard Ork Dakka Dakkka Dakka as well as Gun Crazy Show-Offs to potentially up their number of shots. All of which are delivering Damage 2. Snazzguns deliver enough S and AP to be reasonably scary to heavy infantry. In true Ork fashion, they can be a bit of duds or spike for crazy damage with the high variation. Probably one of the weakest things is they can't pick their Kultur.

So I think these units are closer to each other than you are making them out to be. That's before talking about Flash Gitz generally being more useful in melee than Hellblasters. Something I find happening to my Hellblasters quite a bit to shut them down to choice targets.

Pretty much it actually is boiling down to

ANGRY MARINE NOISES

vs

CRYING ORK NOISES

All books have dud options, when did anyone ever use the anti-aircraft marine vehicles? They've been consistently trash since release, land raiders in general have struggled for a long time. Likewise the m/gorkanaught sucked ass for a long while since release compared to a lot of stuff, same with buggies which are now seeing some viability within 3 years.

**Tyel**

Maybe my perspective was just different, but hellblasters were kind of meh on launch, and got worse. Plasma is nice, but there were many ways to get cheaper versions in other books, and having an expensive version of someone else's ability is rarely the road to meta dominance.

Aggressors by contrast were *I will end the game unless you deal with me!* but things like Ravagers/Riptides/Plasma went "okay, I'll clear you off for about a 100% points return without breaking a sweat, thanks." The ability to destroy index Orks/GSC/Daemons or weird builds without the shooting ability to handle them didn't impact the meta much.

**Gadzilla666**

It did for index Orks/GSC/Daemons.

**Tyel**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
It did for index Orks/GSC/Daemons.

I guess what I meant was they *they were good* but got meta-ed out.
Whereas hellblasters were always kind of meh. At least for me. There was 3 months of hype that didn't go anywhere.

**Jackal90**

I think it’s more about armies and their niche.

At one point, all armies had something that made them stand out above other armies.
It was their defining feature that made them who they were.

Marines never fit into this though.
They were a jack of all trades army that could do shooting, mobility, combat, etc.
While they weren’t amazing at it, they had the ability to do most things to a decent standard.

Over time though, they have had options added that bumped up certain aspects of each.
So they went from a jack of all trades army to one that could do everything and to a high level.

The range is that large now and bloated that I honestly don’t think it could be balanced without imploding internal balance.

Most armies have certain units for certain tasks.
Marines now have several for each task.
By toning them down to balance they will make several options redundant as they really can’t differentiate units of the same role enough.

It’s not an excuse for them, it’s just the product of endless releases and bad design ideas for rules.

**Jidmah**

Dudeface wrote:
Pretty much it actually is boiling down to

ANGRY MARINE NOISES
vs
CRYING ORK NOISES

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but as stated orks have plenty of ways to handle two wound marines.
For some odd reasons people who don't know orks well are trying to come up with obscure solutions to a problem that isn't there. Those "solutions" (lootas, flash gits, shoota boyz) were bad options for handling primaris and will remain bad options to handle firstborns 2.0.
Meanwhile, anything that was doing a good job before keeps doing a good job.

**Gadzilla666**

Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Pretty much it actually is boiling down to

ANGRY MARINE NOISES
vs
CRYING ORK NOISES

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but as stated orks have plenty of ways to handle two wound marines.
For some odd reasons people who don't know orks well are trying to come up with obscure solutions to a problem that isn't there. Those "solutions" (lootas, flash gits, shoota boyz) were bad options for handling primaris and will remain bad options to handle firstborns 2.0.
Meanwhile, anything that was doing a good job before keeps doing a good job.

In other words: at this point we're all used to dealing with 2W marines, we know what kills them well and what doesn't, and most people make sure to include the stuff that does it well in their lists. More 2W marines won't make that much of a difference.

But it will be nice to finally have the ones that have spikes on a more level playing field with the ones that don't. (Now if they'd just fix those

legion traits).

**wuestenfux**

FrozenDwarf wrote:
Quite happy about it.
There should be no stats difference between SM and primaris SM, 15 year old army or 5 month old army. The switch to primaris was 100% pointless.

Pointless for whom? Somebody with a 15 year-old army? Yes, indeed.
But Primaris has driven the sales of Marines into unimaginated heights.

**Eldenfirefly**

yeah. I agree, Primaris was a great way for GW to introduce an entirely new range to their most popular factions in 40k. And they didn't have to end the universe and restart it again like they did in fantasy 40k either. From GW's perspective, Primaris was likely a big win.

**H.B.M.C.**

FrozenDwarf wrote:
The switch to primaris was 100% pointless.

It was't pointless, it was inevitable.

**Beardedragon**

Unless Boyz, Chaos Space Marines, and basically all other base soldiers receives 2 wounds then no i dont like it.

Space Marines arent able to take more hits than an ork if that shot penetrates their armor.

**the_scotsman**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
yeah. I agree, Primaris was a great way for GW to introduce an entirely new range to their most popular factions in 40k. And they didn't have to end the universe and restart it again like they did in fantasy 40k either. From GW's perspective, Primaris was likely a big win.

Yeah, Primaris gives GW a perfect in for new players: "Starter box marines" with none of those upgrades you might glue on without realizing that your investment is now wasted, slightly improved statlines, for a higher point cost allowing newer players to build their army faster.

Ideal for GW.

**IanVanCheese**

In a meta where everyone is building to kill marines, and marines have 2W, toughness 5 is a better buff than 2W Immortals.

T5 and a better gun vs 2W, I'll take Immortals over Tacs in a fight anyday.

**the_scotsman**

IanVanCheese wrote:
In a meta where everyone is building to kill marines, and marines have 2W, toughness 5 is a better buff than 2W Immortals.

T5 and a better gun vs 2W, I'll take Immortals over Tacs in a fight anyday.

Yeah I think immortals are balanced vs tacs.

I just think it's weird as feth that between the two of them the distinction is: The necron immortal is more of a glass cannon vs most weapons, and is slightly better at melee. Meanwhile the tactical marine is more durable...than...the necron?

?????

**Gadzilla666**

Beardedragon wrote:Unless Boyz, Chaos Space Marines, and basically all other base soldiers receives 2 wounds then no i dont like it.

Space Marines arent able to take more hits than an ork if that shot penetrates their armor.

Csm are going to 2W when we get our new codex. Boyz should too. An ork can keep fighting after it loses its head for crying out loud, they should be pretty hard to kill.

the_scotsman wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
In a meta where everyone is building to kill marines, and marines have 2W, toughness 5 is a better buff than 2W Immortals.

T5 and a better gun vs 2W, I'll take Immortals over Tacs in a fight anyday.

Yeah I think immortals are balanced vs tacs.

I just think it's weird as feth that between the two of them the distinction is: The necron immortal is more of a glass cannon vs most weapons, and is slightly better at melee. Meanwhile the tactical marine is more durable...than...the necron?

?????

Isn't the idea that Necrons get knocked down but just get back up? Do we know if Reanimation Protocols are getting improved?

**Endstation**

I love it, as long as xenos players are treated fairly with the releases of new codexes (I really hope they will be, so that it’ll be fun to play SM again without feeling like an OP idiot).

As long as the game is failry balanced after the releases of all new codexes and stuff, I love the fact that tactical marines can be a decent choice.

**The Newman**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
ANGRY MARINE NOISES

The supreme irony being that you consider those units to be "Not good" when other armies would LOVE to have them Since you singled out Hellblasters lets take a look at them currently.

33pts for a Primaris stat line and a 30' Plasma Gun and easy access to a plethora of re-rolls so you never really have to worry about super charging. In your opinion that "sucks".

For comparison, the ork equivalent to a Hellblaster is a Flash Git which is 32pts with a Nob stat line (except BS4) and a 24' Heavy 3 Snazz gun which is S6 -2 2D. To get a reroll you have to pay 5pts for an ammo runt and can only have 2 in a 10 man unit. To keep them alive more than a single turn and have them in range you need to have them in a vehicle or deep striking which regardless lowers your BS back to standard 5+. I don't consider them competitive But I do consider them ok-goodish.

Just because you have a feth ton of other great options doesn't make them "not good" it just means you guys are spoiled for choice.

I think there's a bit of grass is greener going on there. Those Hellblaster re-rolls ain't free nor guaranteed safe (1 in 36 unless being affected by additional modifiers). They have to over charge to get that precious D2. They are nearly as fragile Flash Gitz but don't really have that great of transport options to hide them (Impulsor limits to 6, 5 if you want that Captain or a Repulsor) and don't really have deep strike options. Sure, they have a 30 inch range, but I haven't ever found that to be that great to keep them alive, and if they move they are down to 1 shot with the RF version.

On the other hand, I think you are short selling Flash Gitz a bit. They got the standard Ork Dakka Dakkka Dakka as well as Gun Crazy Show-Offs to potentially up their number of shots. All of which are delivering Damage 2. Snazzguns deliver enough S and AP to be reasonably scary to heavy infantry. In true Ork fashion, they can be a bit of duds or spike for crazy damage with the high variation. Probably one of the weakest things is they can't pick their Kultur.

So I think these units are closer to each other than you are making them out to be. That's before talking about Flash Gitz generally being more useful in melee than Hellblasters. Something I find happening to my Hellblasters quite a bit to shut them down to choice targets.

Sorry, I have to poke my head into this back-and-forth to point out that Rapid Fire Hellblasters do not get two shots when they stand still, Bolter Discipline does not apply to them. Just to be sure you're on the same page you understand, not to support either side of the discussion.

Carry on

**the_scotsman**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:Unless Boyz, Chaos Space Marines, and basically all other base soldiers receives 2 wounds then no i dont like it.

Space Marines arent able to take more hits than an ork if that shot penetrates their armor.

Csm are going to 2W when we get our new codex. Boyz should too. An ork can keep fighting after it loses its head for crying out loud, they should be pretty hard to kill.

the_scotsman wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:
In a meta where everyone is building to kill marines, and marines have 2W, toughness 5 is a better buff than 2W Immortals.

T5 and a better gun vs 2W, I'll take Immortals over Tacs in a fight anyday.

Yeah I think immortals are balanced vs tacs.

I just think it's weird as feth that between the two of them the distinction is: The necron immortal is more of a glass cannon vs most weapons, and is slightly better at melee. Meanwhile the tactical marine is more durable...than...the necron?

?????

Isn't the idea that Necrons get knocked down but just get back up? Do we know if Reanimation Protocols are getting improved?

No clue, but assuming that they are, let's say, improved to something like "if the whole unit is destroyed, leave the last destroyed model on the tabletop tipped over on its side. If no enemy units are within 1" of that model at the end of the turn, roll for Res Prots for the whole unit" then that still leaves the Space Marine as more durable and the immortal as more damaging vs most weaponry, accounting for the immortal getting Res Prots and the marine getting ATSKNF + Doctrines.

Like I said, it's not imbalanced, it's just weird that marines are getting set up as tanky vs the necrons glass cannons.

**Tyran**

Marines getting to 2W base is more of an internal re-balance meant to bring classic Marines at the same level as the Primaris. Immortals have to be balanced against Necron Warriors, while Tacticals have to be balanced against Intercessors.

Who is more tanky depends on the weapon, because damage 2 isn't exactly rare.

**the_scotsman**

Tyran wrote:
Marines getting to 2W base is more of an internal re-balance meant to bring classic Marines at the same level as the Primaris. Immortals have to be balanced against Necron Warriors, while Tacticals have to be balanced against Intercessors.

Who is more tanky depends on the weapon, because damage 2 isn't exactly rare.

True, but everyone spamming damage 2 on absolutely everything is a consequence of the dominance of W2 MEQ. Vs a conceivable "normal meta' where people aren't stripping everything D1 out of their list as much as they can, Immortals are considerably less durable than marines.

Normal, standard Ork lists are only spamming the buggies with Flat 3 and Flat 2 damage weapons and Smasha gunz because a huge fraction of the opponent pool is currently running primaris stuff.

Ditto for Drukhari. A list of all Talos+Wracks for Obsec+All Disintegrators is not a "normal" drukhari list. A "Normal" Drukhari list would be running a ton of poison weaponry, which is 2x as effective vs Immortals than vs all MEQ. The problems rn are twofold: 1, everyone is playing marines, 2, poison weaponry is HOLY gak levels of overcosted.

**Tyran**

Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

**Gadzilla666**

Tyran wrote:
Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

That's true for a lot of things. Like giving everything that had the "Armourbane" rule -4AP and then handing invuls out like candy so anti-tank weapons can't work like they should.

**Unit1126PLL**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

That's true for a lot of things. Like giving everything that had the "Armourbane" rule -4AP and then handing invuls out like candy so anti-tank weapons can't work like they should.

Everything except Vanquisher tanks, that went from having Armorbane to having nothing.

**Kanluwen**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

That's true for a lot of things. Like giving everything that had the "Armourbane" rule -4AP and then handing invuls out like candy so anti-tank weapons can't work like they should.

How many things do you really think had "Armourbane"?

**the_scotsman**

Tyran wrote:
Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

Yeah poison is positively ridiculous against monsters isn't it? why, if you fire a boltgun at a Carnifex, then a Splinter rifle at a carnifex, the boltgun is....well, it's better if you're at any range over 12", and it's the same if you're in Tactical doctrine because the single wound shift is canceled out by the AP....

...it only takes 32 splinter rifles in rapid fire to bring down a carnifex. A paltry 288 points of Kabalite Warriors, the cheapest splinter platform! If anything it's out of hand and needs nerfed!

**Ice_can**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

That's true for a lot of things. Like giving everything that had the "Armourbane" rule -4AP and then handing invuls out like candy so anti-tank weapons can't work like they should.

Part of the reason for invulnerable saves being candy is that damage output against vehicals(more than monsters) has been overtuned for ages.
If those without invulnerable saves die in turn 1 regardless its infuriating that GW can't figure out the reason only invulnerable save vehicals work is because damage is too high, instead they just up the damage output see new multiMeltas

**Jidmah**

the_scotsman wrote:
True, but everyone spamming damage 2 on absolutely everything is a consequence of the dominance of W2 MEQ. Vs a conceivable "normal meta' where people aren't stripping everything D1 out of their list as much as they can, Immortals are considerably less durable than marines.

Normal, standard Ork lists are only spamming the buggies with Flat 3 and Flat 2 damage weapons and Smasha gunz because a huge fraction of the opponent pool is currently running primaris stuff.

It's just a coincidence that ork anti-tank weapons happen to be either flat 3, flat 2 or d6 damage. Actually, one of the two most used buggies has d6 damage, and neither of the flat 2 damage buggy is particularly great at killing primaris.

Ork lists would spam the same buggies against pretty much every army - we don't have the luxury of having multiple viable options that you can move around depending on the meta.

**macluvin**

I mean Warhammer community had an article saying they are looking at Xenos. Maybe GW will price stuff according to the marine meta, or if we are really lucky, re-evaluate and possibly fundamentally change core weapon and unit profiles for everyone? I know they have a terrible track record but it would certainly explain the quick fix and mediocre patches we have been receiving. Maybe their biggest brains were secretly overhauling the entire edition this whole time?

**Voss**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Poison weaponry is arguably the worst designed rule in the game, because it is so damn strong against monsters it has to be overcosted against everything else. They should have totally redesigned it instead of trying to import it from the previous system.

That's true for a lot of things. Like giving everything that had the "Armourbane" rule -4AP and then handing invuls out like candy so anti-tank weapons can't work like they should.

Everything except Vanquisher tanks, that went from having Armorbane to having nothing.

Ah, the poor Vanquisher.
The Vanquisher and the Punisher are pretty much the posterboys for how confused GW gets about their system math.

**the_scotsman**

macluvin wrote:
I mean Warhammer community had an article saying they are looking at Xenos. Maybe GW will price stuff according to the marine meta, or if we are really lucky, re-evaluate and possibly fundamentally change core weapon and unit profiles for everyone? I know they have a terrible track record but it would certainly explain the quick fix and mediocre patches we have been receiving. Maybe their biggest brains were secretly overhauling the entire edition this whole time?

My money is on "Not even weapons that are literally identical except for name (like Fusion Guns and Power Klaws) will get the new changes, they'll all have to wait for the slow codex crawl"

So, points to you for optimism I guess.