Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed

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**blackmage**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am kind of more worried that now when deathguard marines do get 2W, they will dial up the points cost so much it would be a net nerf in the end. Everyone is screaming that plague marines with 2W are going to be OP. And we know GW tends to overshoot on both sides.

of course, you are right, anything will depend by how much they will cost, anyway if, as it seems, the point increase will be about 20% (21-22pts) we can still play them. What make me more worried is the rumor about FNP, seems they want change it with a -1 to wound, in that case DG will take a big nerf, -1 to wound is nothing comparable with a 5+++ FNP.

**Jidmah**

Do you have any math to back that up?

**Dedwoods42**

Having done the math, -1 to wound is better in the vast majority of situations - but only marginally, and in context it rarely changes any breakpoints for rounding averages etcetera.

FNP is typically better against multi damage weapons when the target has multiple wounds. It is about on par for 2 wound PMs - but becomes better for 3 wound Terminators.

Interestingly, when the unit making the attack has +1 to wound - the math shakes out exactly the same for -1 to wound and 5+++.

Context is obviously important and mathhammer will only take you so far - but in the majority of situations -1 to wound makes us slightly more resilient.

I also ran the numbers for having both, in case the rumour is incomplete and the -1 is our new Legion Trait or something (obviously I very much doubt it, but I thought it'd be interesting) and we'd be looking at absolutely insane levels of resilience against the typical weapons people shoot at PMs - Bolt Rifles, medium S -2AP 2D stuff with a couple of shots each, and the higher volume AT weapons.

**Jidmah**

If it's at least in the same ballpark, I'll take less dice rolls over multi-wound shenanigans any day

**blackmage**

no....
1st- it doesn't stop mortal wound
2nd- there are many ways to deny it, many armies have access to +1 to wound or weapons that wound at fixed value regardless modifiers
-1 to wound mean our PM will have just an armor save and if they fail boom they die...and a 22 pts model like that become unplayable.
-1 to wound instead FNP have 0 sense.

**Dedwoods42**

blackmage wrote:
no....
1st- it doesn't stop mortal wound
2nd- there are many ways to deny it, many armies have access to +1 to wound or weapons that wound at fixed value regardless modifiers
-1 to wound mean our PM will have just an armor save and if they fail boom they die...and a 22 pts model like that become unplayable.
-1 to wound instead FNP have 0 sense.

You're right about mortal wounds, that's for sure.

The maths for enemies with +1 to wound is *identical* between -1 to wound and 5+++. Zero difference.

The fixed values is also an issue, but a rare one.

Yeah - they'll have armour saves and die but they'll also take significantly less wounds from regular weapons which is pretty huge.

**blackmage**

Dedwoods42 wrote:
blackmage wrote:
no....
1st- it doesn't stop mortal wound
2nd- there are many ways to deny it, many armies have access to +1 to wound or weapons that wound at fixed value regardless modifiers
-1 to wound mean our PM will have just an armor save and if they fail boom they die...and a 22 pts model like that become unplayable.
-1 to wound instead FNP have 0 sense.

You're right about mortal wounds, that's for sure.

The maths for enemies with +1 to wound is *identical* between -1 to wound and 5+++. Zero difference.

The fixed values is also an issue, but a rare one.

Yeah - they'll have armour saves and die but they'll also take significantly less wounds from regular weapons which is pretty huge.

hope will not happen but if will do you will see how DG will disappear from top tables.
I dont know how can you compare a -1 to wound to FNP, you have to see what armies play and how, do straight math mean nothing, play against GK with your -1 to wound and no FNP then let me know, play against DE with their poisoned weapons (thata sure will keep wound you at 4+) and no FNP, i can go on with harleys and more...

**Dedwoods42**

blackmage wrote:
Dedwoods42 wrote:
blackmage wrote:
no....
1st- it doesn't stop mortal wound
2nd- there are many ways to deny it, many armies have access to +1 to wound or weapons that wound at fixed value regardless modifiers
-1 to wound mean our PM will have just an armor save and if they fail boom they die...and a 22 pts model like that become unplayable.
-1 to wound instead FNP have 0 sense.

You're right about mortal wounds, that's for sure.

The maths for enemies with +1 to wound is *identical* between -1 to wound and 5+++. Zero difference.

The fixed values is also an issue, but a rare one.

Yeah - they'll have armour saves and die but they'll also take significantly less wounds from regular weapons which is pretty huge.

hope will not happen but if will do you will see how DG will disappear from top tables.
I dont know how can you compare a -1 to wound to FNP, you have to see what armies play and how, do straight math mean nothing, play against GK with your -1 to wound and no FNP then let me know, play against DE with their poisoned weapons (thata sure will keep wound you at 4+) and no FNP, i can go on with harleys and more...

If you read my original comment I put emphasis on the importance of context, yes. Some of our matchups would change, yes.
The most common result would *still* be a slight increase in resilience.

**Azuza001**

I dont see why... everyone took plasma in case of loyalist marines before. They will do the same thing now doubly so in case chaos or loyalist marines.

**Sazzlefrats**

I rewrote my list, based on the suggestions I got here, and my own thinking. Its got a significant amount of anti-harlequin respect built in.

Demon Prince on foot (Supportating Plate + Rotten Constituion)(Miasma of Pestilence)
Sorcerer - Blades of Putrification & Putricent Vitality
10 Poxwalkers
10 Poxwalkers
10 Poxwalkers
4 Nurglings
4 Nurglings
1 Foul Blightspawn
1 Foul Blightspawn
Plagueburst Crawler w/ Plague Spitters
Plagueburst Crawler w/ Plague Spitters
Plagueburst Crawler w/ Plague Spitters
5 Chaos Spawn w/ Mutated Monstrosity

And then!!!
Emporer's Children Patrol
Sorcerer (Warp Time + Delightful Agonies FNP for noise marines))
Dark Apostle (Benediction of Darkness -1 to be hit for noise marines)
Dark Disciples
20 Noise Marines w. Sonic Blasters

The idea is... I start the marines on the board with -1 to be hit, combat drugs for t5, and in cover for a 2+ save. (maybe I lose 5 guys if I don't go first and am targetable... each round thereafter... I got 5np... so they are plaguemarines with pink armor ::-)

I'm kinda rethinking plagueburst crawlers... expensive for their damage output? Might want to put in MBH

**blackmage**

you dont use PBC for damage output, you use them because they are durable and a pain in the ass to shift, they provide character protection they can get into objective and stay, now durability pays back.
Im not sold with your troops (too fragile for harleys) and i prefer AL noise marines, you can protect them with stratagem, nothing is better than that to make them survive.

**Eldenfirefly**

FNP is good because even if the Str of the weapon is vastly higher than the Toughness of the model, you will still get a 5+ Save. A bunch of nurglings, poxwalkers. a -1 to wound does nothing for them. But they are good because they still get the 5+ FNP even if they are wounded.

Once you turn FNP into a -1 to wound , you essentially remove the resilience of such low toughness units.

**Jidmah**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
FNP is good because even if the Str of the weapon is vastly higher than the Toughness of the model, you will still get a 5+ Save. A bunch of nurglings, poxwalkers. a -1 to wound does nothing for them. But they are good because they still get the 5+ FNP even if they are wounded.

Once you turn FNP into a -1 to wound , you essentially remove the resilience of such low toughness units.

People, you need to do math to compare these two rules, or at least point to someone who did the math. Claiming one rule is better than the other without proof is completely worthless...

A dakkajet (S6, AP-1, 1 damage)wounds pox walkers on a 2+ and has 18 shots, hits 9, wounds 7.5, 5 dead poxwalkers after DR
With -1 to wound, it hits 9, wounds 6. One more dead pox walker.

Let's say you shoot pox walkers with a bunch of loota (S7, AP-1, 2 damage), the have 30 shots an average of 15 hits, wound 12.5 and have 11.11 dead pox walkers after DR
With -1 to wound, they wound and kill 10 instead. One less dead pox walker

Let's do the same for plague marines:
Dakkajet hits 9, wounds 6, 3 unsaved, 1 damage goes past DR
With -1 to wound, it's hit 9, wound 4.5, 2.25 unsaved damage. One additional casualty.

Lootas hit 15, wound 10, 5 unsaved, 3.33 damage goes past DR, potentially losing 1 damage to overkill when they go to 2 wounds.
With -1 to wound, it hit 15, wound 7.5, 3.75 unsaved. At minimum a higher chance to lose two marines.

So -1 to wound indeed seems to be worse than DR, but not massively so. Combined with losing the ability to ignore mortal wound it does seem like quite a nerf.
I'm still hoping for both keeping DR on datasheets and -1 to wound as a legion trait. That would be rad.

**lare2**

That would be nuts - army wide cloud of flies

**Dedwoods42**

Do the maths against something very common - Intercessors. No matter the volume of buffs, -1 to wound is *at worst* exactly the same level of survivability against auto bolt rifle fire - in instances where they have +1 to wound. The rest of the time there's a slight increase in survivability.

Like I said before - context is key and it very, very rarely moves any *real* numbers as it doesn't often change the averages after rounding - but don't write it off immediately without understanding what it actually means.

Yeah, having both would obviously be ideal!

**Sazzlefrats**

blackmage wrote:
you dont use PBC for damage output, you use them because they are durable and a pain in the ass to shift, they provide character protection they can get into objective and stay, now durability pays back.
Im not sold with your troops (too fragile for harleys) and i prefer AL noise marines, you can protect them with stratagem, nothing is better than that to make them survive.

No real reason to take noise marines over plague marines if I lose the empowers children stratagem with the 2d per sonic blaster

**blackmage**

People, you need to do math to compare these two rules, or at least point to someone who did the math. Claiming one rule is better than the other without proof is completely worthless...

no you need to play serious games and forget the math

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sazzlefrats wrote:
blackmage wrote:
you dont use PBC for damage output, you use them because they are durable and a pain in the ass to shift, they provide character protection they can get into objective and stay, now durability pays back.
Im not sold with your troops (too fragile for harleys) and i prefer AL noise marines, you can protect them with stratagem, nothing is better than that to make them survive.

No real reason to take noise marines over plague marines if I lose the empowers children stratagem with the 2d per sonic blaster

depend what you think to face, 20 noise=120 shots enough to threat a large number of targets anyway.

**Dedwoods42**

blackmage wrote:
People, you need to do math to compare these two rules, or at least point to someone who did the math. Claiming one rule is better than the other without proof is completely worthless...

no you need to play serious games and forget the math

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sazzlefrats wrote:
blackmage wrote:
you dont use PBC for damage output, you use them because they are durable and a pain in the ass to shift, they provide character protection they can get into objective and stay, now durability pays back.
Im not sold with your troops (too fragile for harleys) and i prefer AL noise marines, you can protect them with stratagem, nothing is better than that to make them survive.

No real reason to take noise marines over plague marines if I lose the empowers children stratagem with the 2d per sonic blaster

depend what you think to face, 20 noise=120 shots enough to threat a large number of targets anyway.

I have played games and they've supported my assertions, which are predominantly agreeing with you. Absolutely no value in being combative and shooting down every opinion that isn't your own.

**Jidmah**

blackmage wrote:
People, you need to do math to compare these two rules, or at least point to someone who did the math. Claiming one rule is better than the other without proof is completely worthless...

no you need to play serious games and forget the math

So, considering how you definitely have played 0 serious games with -1 to wound instead of DR, your opinion is worthless, correct?

There is no need to be an ass.

**blackmage**

you dont have to agree with me at all of course but what im saying is...try to play the game now, swap DR for -1 to wound and face the most dominant lists out there played by a good player and see...this is what i meant, no one must agree with me, is not what im intersted for, im interested in played wh40k only, hope i have clarified it, cheers.

**Brymm**

It’s strange because I’ve blocked Blackmage over a year ago and reading one sided arguments against him is bizarre but enlightening: we have an extremely negative voice driving a majority of the conversation in this thread. I do believe it hurts the growth of this thread significantly.

**Jidmah**

I agree. Basically everyone who dares think outside the box gets hit with a negative post from him and few are stubborn enough to keep posting despite that.
No wonder that there is basically no DG community here on dakka even though many people are posting pictures of painting them.

**Sherrypie**

Jidmah wrote:
I agree. Basically everyone who dares think outside the box gets hit with a negative post from him and few are stubborn enough to keep posting despite that.
No wonder that there is basically no DG community here on dakka even though many people are posting pictures of painting them.

Community building would perhaps benefit from more varied content being posted, like proper battle reports, their analysis and interesting findings being discussed (in addition to getting positive feedback in general). 40k does suffer a bit from the view that it's more about numbers than tactics, which dulls the discussion down to math instead of interesting war stories that many people are rather fond of. As Death Guard is a minor faction, even a rather nice one, this is then excerbated as there aren't too many avenues of approaching the optimal number crunch, leaving lots of interesting choices and styles for narrative games (which in turn aren't of that much use for the number crunching crowd, even if their after action analyses would actually be probably the most interesting ones from the tactical point of view).

**Jidmah**

I don't know about that, I do fairly successful with large parts of the codex in a semi-competitive environment. However, unlike in the ork thread, I don't feel like talking about that here, because you get verbally run over by a truck for suggesting anything that is not fit to win the LVO.

**Sherrypie**

Jidmah wrote:
I don't know about that, I do fairly successful with large parts of the codex in a semi-competitive environment. However, unlike in the ork thread, I don't feel like talking about that here, because you get verbally run over by a truck for suggesting anything that is not fit to win the LVO.

I find that mental image amusing given your avatar is a big old wagon

To the actual point, that sounds like a healthy state of things. Personally I find it somewhat frustrating to follow threads like these at various places when they are only locked to that "winning the LVO" mindset, when there's lots of gaming to be had that won't adhere to the same style. Say, playing a basic tournament mission pack where you want to take and hold ground while being able to quickly answer various threats (and variations of that setup) is inherently going to skew the ranking of our units way differently than say, a proper attacker / defender scenario with search and destroy targets. Running after objective markers makes Deathshroud useless (or so the online wisdom goes etc.) while the same boys in an urban assault are absolutely bonkers ripping into any old bunker or strongpoint they are supposed to burn into the ground.

Plenty of other similar frustrations abound, like various Dreadnought armament discussion that always devolved into double Butcher cannon fests regardless of other considerations. Not necessarily on this board, but still.

**blackmage**

ok my way of post here now will be... I will NOT anymore enter into a "fight" about what is competitive or not and how have to be played,is obviously not worth, or better if ppls prefer i refrain to post anything "serious" about competitive, then if someone want start a new thread for me is ok anyway. Regards to all..

**lare2**

lare2 wrote:
Just submitted the below for a tourney a week on Saturday. Will let you know how it goes. The aim is for the PBC, MBH, MP, and DP to control the centre of the board. I'll summon in a Poxbringer to heal up the daemon engines. Aim to perform psychic ritual with the MP. While we stand we fight will mean keeping the DP and PBC alive. The third secondary will vary on the opponent. A FBD plus a unit of PM will focus on each of the wings and objectives whilst Typhus and the BLT will come down depending on the game. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler:

Plague Company: The Poxmongers
Stratagems

Gifts of Decay (1 Relic) [-1CP]

HQ [465pts]
Daemon Prince of Nurgle [200pts]: Miasma of Pestilence, Revoltingly Resilient, Malefic talon, Malefic talon [15pts], Plaguechosen [-1CP], Smite, The Suppurating Plate, Wings [35pts]
Malignant Plaguecaster [100pts]: Plague Wind, Arch-Contaminator, Curse of the Leper, Blight Grenades, Bolt pistol, Corrupted staff, Ironclot Furnace, Krak grenades, Smite, Warlord
Typhus [165pts]: Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality, Blight Grenades, Harbinger of Nurgle [-1CP], Master-crafted manreaper, Smite, The Destroyer Hive

Troops [297pts]
Plague Marines [110pts]

. Plague Champion [18pts]: Blight Grenades, Boltgun, Krak grenades, Plague knife
. 2x Plague Marine w/ boltgun [36pts]: 2x Blight Grenades, 2x Boltgun, 2x Krak Grenades, 2x Plague knife
. Plague Marine w/ special weapon [28pts]: Blight Grenades, Blight launcher [10pts], Krak grenades, Plague knife
. Plague Marine w/ special weapon [28pts]: Blight Grenades, Blight launcher [10pts], Krak grenades, Plague knife
Plague Marines [6 PL, 110pts]
. Plague Champion [18pts]: Blight Grenades, Boltgun, Krak grenades, Plague knife
. 2x Plague Marine w/ boltgun [36pts]: 2x Blight Grenades, 2x Boltgun, 2x Krak Grenades, 2x Plague knife
. Plague Marine w/ special weapon [28pts]: Blight Grenades, Blight launcher [10pts], Krak grenades, Plague knife
. Plague Marine w/ special weapon [28pts]: Blight Grenades, Blight launcher [10pts], Krak grenades, Plague knife
Poxwalkers [6 PL, 77pts]
. 11x Poxwalker [77pts]: 11x Improvised weapon

Elites [229pts]
Blightlord Terminators [229pts]

. Blightlord Champion [43pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [3pts]
. Blightlord Terminator [43pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [3pts]
. Blightlord Terminator [43pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [3pts]
. Blightlord Terminator [50pts]: Blight launcher [10pts], Bubotic Axe [5pts]
. Blightlord Terminator [50pts]: Flail of Corruption [15pts]

Fast Attack [610pts]
Foetid Bloat-drone [155pts]: 2x Plaguespitter [40pts], Plague probe
Foetid Bloat-drone [155pts]: 2x Plaguespitter [40pts], Plague probe
Myphitic Blight-haulers [300pts]
. Myphitic Blight-hauler [100pts]: Bile spurt, Gnashing maw, Missile launcher [20pts], Multi-melta [25pts]
. Myphitic Blight-hauler [100pts]: Bile spurt, Gnashing maw, Missile launcher [20pts], Multi-melta [25pts]
. Myphitic Blight-hauler [100pts]: Bile spurt, Gnashing maw, Missile launcher [20pts], Multi-melta [25pts]

Heavy Support [320pts]
Plagueburst Crawler [160pts]: 2x Entropy cannon [30pts], Accelerated Entropy [-1CP], Heavy slugger, Plagueburst Mortar
Plagueburst Crawler [160pts]: 2x Entropy cannon [30pts], Heavy slugger, Plagueburst Mortar

++ Total: [102 PL, 8CP, 1,922pts] ++

Well, I managed to win 1 out of 3 which, for me, ain't a bad result - ha ha!

First game was against a lot of orc buggies. They were pretty speedy and they swarmed the board early on. The mission was overrun and that's pretty much what happened. I managed to pretty much table him turn 4 but by then he had a lead i just couldn't catch. I ran while we stand we fight, psychic ritual, and bring it down. Lost by 20pts in the end so managed to claw it back a bit towards the end.

Second game.... can't even remember the mission as it didn't really matter. It was against Iron Hands and they pretty much tabled me first turn. Lost the role (never won it all day) and they went first. It's unreal how powerful going first can be. Didn't deploy very well as grossly underestimated how powerful they are. Then spent 3 turns hiding PM to score some primary. Game ended 100pts to 30 odd.

Third game got the win against Guard, 85pts to 80. Loved it. Played Retrieval Mission and it was easily the best game of the day and not just cause I won! Although that did help

Ran while we stand we fight, psychic ritual and deploy scramblers. This was the only game I got the ritual off and even then it was turn 5. First time running scramblers and loved it. Never realised beforehand that it happens the end of your turn so there's little the opponent can do to stop it. BLT ensured it went off in opponent's deployment zone, strategic pox did no man's land.

Lessons from the day, I'm starting to dislike while we stand we fight. There's still too much firepower out there and we're really not as resilient as people make out. I'm starting to turn off FBDs... i do love them though so this is a painful realisation for me. Poxbringer does the hide and heal job well but D3 healing really isn't much when you're getting pounded. Iron Hands are just stupid good. Finally, I'm still not very good at this game

**Eldenfirefly**

Yeah.. I am starting to think a secondary like while we stand we fight is only good on characters if your characters can be selected for it. No mater how resilient a PBC is, if your opponent pours enough shots into it, it will still go down. Unless you know your opponent has no out of line of sight shooting and you hide them behind obscuring terrain all game, which is an option, but then you lose a lot of their other shooting since you would only be able to shoot with their mortars.

I am actually having a bit of trouble picking secondaries. Because deathguard is not very killy, nor that fast. They play the primary mission well, but are not necessarily the best on secondary missions.

**ErikWennberg**

blackmage wrote:
ok my way of post here now will be... I will NOT anymore enter into a "fight" about what is competitive or not and how have to be played,is obviously not worth, or better if ppls prefer i refrain to post anything "serious" about competitive, then if someone want start a new thread for me is ok anyway. Regards to all..

As a long time lurker and complete noob I say that I agree with the others but I still love most of your posts Blackmage. Its so easy to get tricked by reading other peoples opinion. My first try at Warhammer was with Tyranids several years ago. I loved Raveners and Trygons and their was a list on the internet that even had a Youtube video explaining it in detail, it was really good according to what I read. I was so happy and bought the models. I spend money and time painting. I was like a child before Christmas but then I played... The list was gak against the people I played. Sure they could modify their lists to have friendly games but it just felt wrong. The models were so cool and I loved the game play but my friends need to play with me as if I was a 4 year old, it hurt. Thanks to Black mages posts I wont do the same mistake again and if I still buy the models for the strategy Ill know what I buy. I would recommend that when you reply to people it should be in the form of a debate and not an argument.

With all that said Jidmah is also amazing and spending time to write down all the mathhammer for DR vs -1 to wound just to get a one liner as a reply must be aggravating. Hat off to you for not raging. I would have raged and argue that DR sucks because I always fail my saves so a -1 to wound would be way better for me. (crappy argument I know)

Sorry for long post but what I want to say is that you are both right but it would be a great loss for the forum if any one of you left. So please continue typing so that I may lurk and learn something during breakfast.

**Jidmah**

Thanks for the praise.

I know the feel when people tell you to buy units which allegedly are totally awesome, but once you field them, they are complete trash. This happened to me when I started 10 years ago and was actually my reason for joining dakka back then - the communities I was frequenting before didn't give unit effectiveness a lot of thought, or were even openly hostile to any competitive thinking.

That said, units aren't just great or bad. In my opinion when someone asks whether is unit is worth taking, the right way to answer this by explaining a unit's shortcomings and strengths, and let the person decide for themselves. For example the malignant plaguecaster is definitely not an optimal unit, but if you really want to run one in a meta that is not optimized either, it's not going to cost you the game - and against aggressive enemies that want to engage, he actually has the ability to deal insane amounts of mortal wounds.
Some units are just lost cases, but since WotS I don't think we have any of those, though the jury is still out on the landraider.

There also is the issue people just wanting to make a specific unit work, in that case you should help them with that and not just tell them to field another unit.