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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

BrianDavion wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.


But that's Xenomancer's gameplan. If everything isn't Relic Contemptor or Squigbuggy meta-busting-powerful than it isn't worth the plastic used to print it out


in fairness that's hardly unique to him. it seems everyone dismisses any unit that can't one shot a knight etc in round one as worthless.


No Brian, now we're comparing to basic marine infantry. Oh how the times have changed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 00:39:07


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Eonfuzz wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.


But that's Xenomancer's gameplan. If everything isn't Relic Contemptor or Squigbuggy meta-busting-powerful than it isn't worth the plastic used to print it out


in fairness that's hardly unique to him. it seems everyone dismisses any unit that can't one shot a knight etc in round one as worthless.


No Brian, now we're comparing to basic marine infantry. Oh how the times have changed.


well hence my "ETC" generally dakka dakka identifies a "boogy man" and insist they need to be able to wipe it out turn one for it to be any good.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.

You'd have a point if anyone were willing to use a unit with 3-6 Melta shots being T5 W9 at 180 points. Here's the kicker: nobody is going to do that! At that point why not just use a Lascannon Sponson Predator? Autocannon OR TL Lascannon turret?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.

You'd have a point if anyone were willing to use a unit with 3-6 Melta shots being T5 W9 at 180 points. Here's the kicker: nobody is going to do that! At that point why not just use a Lascannon Sponson Predator? Autocannon OR TL Lascannon turret?
Because 6 Melta shots is better than 4 Lascannon shots.

It degrades faster, but is more resilient to d6 damage weapons, and can gain cover MUCH more easily, as well as being able to move better.

At 180 points, they'd be a lot worse than they are now (obviously), but they'd still be worth considering. Not an auto-take (which nothing really should be), but still a potent option.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.

You'd have a point if anyone were willing to use a unit with 3-6 Melta shots being T5 W9 at 180 points. Here's the kicker: nobody is going to do that! At that point why not just use a Lascannon Sponson Predator? Autocannon OR TL Lascannon turret?


Deepstrikable, Rerollable, Safe 6 Melta shots on a platform with 9 wounds, taking a max of 3 damage per hit?
Orks pay as much for a 2d6 shot (possible) meltagun, lol. And that's on a 4 wound 4+ platform.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.

You'd have a point if anyone were willing to use a unit with 3-6 Melta shots being T5 W9 at 180 points. Here's the kicker: nobody is going to do that! At that point why not just use a Lascannon Sponson Predator? Autocannon OR TL Lascannon turret?


Deepstrikable, Rerollable, Safe 6 Melta shots on a platform with 9 wounds, taking a max of 3 damage per hit?
Orks pay as much for a 2d6 shot (possible) meltagun, lol. And that's on a 4 wound 4+ platform.

Tau pay 180 points for 6 melta shots at T5 with 9 wounds. Or at least we would if Crisis suits which didn't have a commander in it weren't hugely overcosted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 01:40:26


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

Big difference though, these are BS 3+, reroll all hits and wounds. While also benefit from the smorgasbord of Marine stratagems

Edit: Also have further range and damage

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 01:50:44


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Eonfuzz wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

relic Contemptor with 2x MM and a cylone is 180...Way more durable - faster -hits better and it's not a heavy support ether.


Basing your entire argument on Relic Contemptors not being one of the most undercosted units on the table says a lot about your argument. There's a reason they're showing up in equal numbers with Eradicators.


I hate to sound salty but yeah, it's really telling when anytime you compare them to a middle-of-the-road, average, not super underwhelming but not meta busting unit (even when said units regularly show up in tournament lists), the response is 'that's not fair because [x] unit sucks'. Then they're instead compared to some of the best units in the entire game and the argument is 'see, they're not that much better'. Yeah, I guess when you compare to the criminally undercosted Relic Contemptor rocking two multi-meltas with the upcoming literal double effectiveness buff then significantly nerfed 60pt Eradicators wouldn't seem super powerful. Funny that.

You'd have a point if anyone were willing to use a unit with 3-6 Melta shots being T5 W9 at 180 points. Here's the kicker: nobody is going to do that! At that point why not just use a Lascannon Sponson Predator? Autocannon OR TL Lascannon turret?


Deepstrikable, Rerollable, Safe 6 Melta shots on a platform with 9 wounds, taking a max of 3 damage per hit?
Orks pay as much for a 2d6 shot (possible) meltagun, lol. And that's on a 4 wound 4+ platform.

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

Insectum you can't just say that, what if the marine player dont have no captain, luttyants, dreadnuts, caldar or other ant variants.

You can't just assume a space marine player's HQ slot like that
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Eonfuzz wrote:
Insectum you can't just say that, what if the marine player dont have no captain, luttyants, dreadnuts, caldar or other ant variants.

You can't just assume a space marine player's HQ slot like that

Because armies with a chaplains and librarians do not exist, and does generaly run their 3ed HQ as a jump pack Lt.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







No Captain/LT doesn't mean no re-rolls/hit-wound bonuses. Deathwatch, Salamanders, Recitation of Focus, Eye of Hypnoth, Tank Hunters...

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that point why not just use a Lascannon Sponson Predator? Autocannon OR TL Lascannon turret?


...Because three Eradicators are outputting ~50% more damage than a quad lascannon Predator at 12-24", and nearly twice as powerful inside 12"? That seems a pretty compelling reason to me.

Could you make a comparison to something at that points level that actually has comparable or more firepower and isn't an underpriced relic dread?

   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





BrianDavion wrote:


in fairness that's hardly unique to him. it seems everyone dismisses any unit that can't one shot a knight etc in round one as worthless.


Objection your honor - my lack of enthusiasm was movement/range based not firepower based.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.


How do we know that?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.
Having run only a single CM +Lt. pair for the entirety of 8th, and having 85%+ of my army getting re-rolls all the time, I'm pretty comfortable in the assumption that re-rolls can be made available to some of the most potent shooting units in the army. The main reason why they wouldn't is because you're already getting so much overkill with them that you don't need re-rolls. Firing at a Carnifex? Don't need re-rolls because you'll just cook it with your 9.3 average wounds anyways. Within 12"? 14.6 wounds without re-rolls. If there's actually a hard target the marine player wants to get rid of, re-roll support will be made available.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 04:56:00


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 argonak wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.


How do we know that?

I think it was shown in the official announcement vid where they skipped through a few pages of the new codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 06:37:05


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Honestly, whilest not Bad per se, it feels Like a bandaid Change...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.


You still will see 2 captains easily. And that's what I see mostly anyway and yet there's rerolls everywhere.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




tneva82 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.


You still will see 2 captains easily. And that's what I see mostly anyway and yet there's rerolls everywhere.


limited to one captain per army
does not compute with
You still will see 2 captains easily

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 07:50:22


 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

If that rule comes to pass (and likely as it looks, it isn't certain until the Codex actually drops) it's one Captain per detachment.
You could quite easily take a second for the princely sum of 2CP.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Super Ready wrote:
If that rule comes to pass (and likely as it looks, it isn't certain until the Codex actually drops) it's one Captain per detachment.
You could quite easily take a second for the princely sum of 2CP.


Well 2cp and extra troops choice, you could probably run out of 2 patrols if you didn't care about the cp cost.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





i mean, considering some of the troop choices for SM are actually liked and fielded that'd be hardly a punishment.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Aye, once tacs get 2W it's going to be pretty tough to argue that any of loyalists troops choices are "tax" units.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aye, once tacs get 2W it's going to be pretty tough to argue that any of loyalists troops choices are "tax" units.


I am still more concerned about other factions if that limit swaps over.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aye, once tacs get 2W it's going to be pretty tough to argue that any of loyalists troops choices are "tax" units.


I am still more concerned about other factions if that limit swaps over.


I'd wait and see, too. We've seen the 0-1 limit on Captains before. That's usually when we also see Commanders or some other Slightly worse than a Captain but still a Captain archetype show up.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Dudeface wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry where were all these rerolls again?
In the marine army because you're playing marines and you're gonna have rerolls.


except we know that Marines are being limited to one captain per army as of the 9th edition codex. so assuming they'll have re-rolls everywhere is just silly.


You still will see 2 captains easily. And that's what I see mostly anyway and yet there's rerolls everywhere.


limited to one captain per army
does not compute with
You still will see 2 captains easily


Pretty sure "per army" is error. Pretty sure I saw "per detachment" limit like tau commander have. Not per army. So you take 2 det's, you have 2 captains.

Could be wrong though. But GW isn't flat out banning stuff generally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:
If that rule comes to pass (and likely as it looks, it isn't certain until the Codex actually drops) it's one Captain per detachment.
You could quite easily take a second for the princely sum of 2CP.


Well 2cp and extra troops choice, you could probably run out of 2 patrols if you didn't care about the cp cost.


2nd patrol isn't that uncommon anyway just for extra HS/FA/HQ slots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 09:06:15


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





yes ok my bad it is per detachment. not sure why I was thinking per army. still, an additional detachment costs CPs. I'm not sure it's worth losing 2 CPs just for a 2nd captain, guess we'll see. I'm of the opinion that with chaplain litanies etc, all of the Marine HQs are good eneugh that I'm gonna want a mix of HQs anyway.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





tneva82 wrote:


Pretty sure "per army" is error. Pretty sure I saw "per detachment" limit like tau commander have. Not per army. So you take 2 det's, you have 2 captains.

Could be wrong though. But GW isn't flat out banning stuff generally.

I wouldn't put my eggs in either basket yet. Without writing a whole new thing for it, the closest they have is only one model per army may have this keyword mechanics. I smell a return of the two demi-companies led by a Captain and a Chaplain idea from a few editions ago myself.. what was that 6th? 7th? or a return of the Not-Captain Commanders from 2nd edition and assorted cameo appearances. Just looked it was backwards. 1 (Compulsory, no more no less) Commander 0-2 optional Captains, but the names change, you get the idea.

I think the odds are 6 to 5 and I wouldn't pick anything, but if you made me, I'd say its the Demi Company Chaplain thing. They've been trying to make Chaplains not be the last HQ picked on the playground for a while, limiting the second Det to a Chaplain or with some sort of boost for paired Cap/Chap double detachement things is in their comfort zone.

Company Support:
If your Army has two Batallion Detachments one led by a Captain one by a Chaplain, your infantry get to take free Dedicated Transports

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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