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Bosskelot wrote: This thread is an excellent microcosm for one of the reasons why people are actually mad at Marine dominance and prevalence.
It's not that they are overwhelmingly powerful for a large swathe of factions to deal with, or that they're far too common on the tabletop and so you get burned out on facing them. It's that there's a significant portion of the LSM playerbase that just refuses to believe there is an issue with the army and will not only refuse to acknowledge imbalance but will try and argue in the opposite direction. I have legitimately seen people arguing (not so much on Dakka to be fair) that Salamanders and Iron Hands are not overpowered but that they're actually bad armies. This is despite both of them ripping through the tournament scene at the moment. Even discounting empirical evidence you can understand how strong the armies are just through stats and mathhammering.
But there's a significant part of the LSM playerbase that just outright refuses to understand the problem or even acknowledge there is one.
I never saw Craftworld players in 8th saying Altaioc Flyers or Ynnari Spears/Reapers were underpowered units. At most they would point to the rest of the Codex being sub-optimal and wanting to rely on the broken gak in order to win games and they might try and offer counterplay ideas. Same with Drukhari players and mass Venom, Grotesque and Talos spam, and triple Dissy Ravagers. Everyone acknowledged they were good and tournament results reflected that.
The current situation with Space Marines is unique in recent memory because you have OVERWHELMING empirical evidence of Marines being dominant and opinions from top-tier incredibly skilled players stating again and again and again that the army needs a redesign somehow. You have 3x3 Eradicators showing up in every single top list and absolutely crushing everything. And yet here we are. People in this thread trying to somehow argue that Marines are not dominant and not even wanting to maybe consider that there might be a problem with Eradicators or the Codex and its supplements in general.
It's absurd. This is actually why there's so much backlash against Marines. Because of people like this.
Nailed it. And it's crazy the persecution complex that this has created among Marines players too. I won't name names but the usual suspects are certainly out in force in this thread. Yeah, there are definitely people on Dakka that go too far in their statements about Marines players and we've seen some nutso melodramatic threads here about boycotts. But the answer to melodrama is not more melodrama; that certainly doesn't endear me to the plight of the Marines player.
It really is a shame -- there basically isn't anywhere else on the internet that *talks about 40k the game* like Dakka does as a large, broad community (I guess B&C, but again it's still through a Marines-focused lens), so if one were to take a break from here, then one misses out on that. But boy... it's not the community it once was. Maybe I'm just looking through rose-colored lenses but it seems a shame.
vict0988 wrote: Karol is a troll and it is high time we stop engaging with his troll posts. Ignore him entirely or only engage with him when he makes a reasonable point. He's just poking people where he knows he'll get a reaction.
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
"
Where were you in 7th? There was a campaign to stop playing against Eldar players LMAO.
Karol doesn't play SM, he plays GK. Which are not the "top dogs" by any stretch. Also they can't take eradicators.
You've not only completely missed the point, you've also managed to grossly misrepresent my statement at the same time. Well done!
Karol plays an army that went from being garbage tier for almost an entire edition, to one of the strongest in the PA-era of 8th edition. 9th has been a mixed bag for that army, but its still vastly overperforming a significant number of others. So what does that particular player do? Lord it over the armies that he can now dominate, while simultaneously arguing that they should be forced to suffer the same way he did.
That's not good for anyone involved.
Eradicators being a smoking crater of brokenness is irrelevant to this particular ball of vitriol and toxicity. But you go on and defend him because his army cant take that unit. Great example to be setting for both internal balance and basic civility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 16:04:30
vict0988 wrote: Karol is a troll and it is high time we stop engaging with his troll posts. Ignore him entirely or only engage with him when he makes a reasonable point. He's just poking people where he knows he'll get a reaction.
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
"
Where were you in 7th? There was a campaign to stop playing against Eldar players LMAO.
Doesn't have to be eldar, any none marine faction really.
And people still complain about csm 3.5 and R&H Malefic Lords.... the list could go on. No, definitely not just a Loyalist Dogs thing. Just them now because they're the faction with the most "problem" units. If something else becomes an issue I'm sure it will get plenty of attention.
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
What eldar releases? Do you mean codex/supplements that everyone got?
Because books is basically what aeldari players got in the last X years, barring a handful of models (mostly updated kits of already existing units). So yeah, give them their right to like those "releases" at least
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 17:59:37
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
What eldar releases? Do you mean codex/supplements that everyone got?
Because books is basically what aeldari players got in the last X years, barring a handful of models (mostly updated kits of already existing units). So yeah, give them their right to like those "releases" at least
I wouldn't take their right to enjoy releases away, but they've as much right to enjoy a release as a blood angels player. Guess which one would get immediately attacked on these boards though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 18:29:55
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
What eldar releases? Do you mean codex/supplements that everyone got?
Because books is basically what aeldari players got in the last X years, barring a handful of models (mostly updated kits of already existing units). So yeah, give them their right to like those "releases" at least
I wouldn't take their right to enjoy releases away, but they've as much right to enjoy a release as a blood angels player. Guess which one would get immediately attacked on these boards though.
Neither.
It's not the players, by and large, that are being attacked. It's GW for releasing such garbage balance.
If a player says "I can't wait to crush new players with these OP units!" then yeah, they're a jerkwad, but if they're more along the lines of "Oh, sweet! New models! Hope they look cool," then that's fine.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
What eldar releases? Do you mean codex/supplements that everyone got?
Because books is basically what aeldari players got in the last X years, barring a handful of models (mostly updated kits of already existing units). So yeah, give them their right to like those "releases" at least
I wouldn't take their right to enjoy releases away, but they've as much right to enjoy a release as a blood angels player. Guess which one would get immediately attacked on these boards though.
Neither.
It's not the players, by and large, that are being attacked. It's GW for releasing such garbage balance.
If a player says "I can't wait to crush new players with these OP units!" then yeah, they're a jerkwad, but if they're more along the lines of "Oh, sweet! New models! Hope they look cool," then that's fine.
I still remember people being slammed with "shill", "marine sympathiser" and good old "white knight" because they dared to like some of the new stuff last time. Let's see what the new coddx and supplements bring.
I do accept gw is often the cause of the ire, but to poor timmy who wanted to talk about how cool it was his new winged dreadnought was that had fly. To be hit with a slew of ban marines, oh yay another unit to beat my npc faction with etc. Type comments, it must be draining.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 18:37:12
Anyone mentioning anything pro-marine on here will get heckled, I understand why they are frustrated but if someone posts "I really like new eldar releases" they'll get a pat on the back. Post "I'm looking forwards to a blood angels supplement" and you'll get raged at endlessly.
What eldar releases? Do you mean codex/supplements that everyone got?
Because books is basically what aeldari players got in the last X years, barring a handful of models (mostly updated kits of already existing units). So yeah, give them their right to like those "releases" at least
I wouldn't take their right to enjoy releases away, but they've as much right to enjoy a release as a blood angels player. Guess which one would get immediately attacked on these boards though.
Neither.
It's not the players, by and large, that are being attacked. It's GW for releasing such garbage balance.
If a player says "I can't wait to crush new players with these OP units!" then yeah, they're a jerkwad, but if they're more along the lines of "Oh, sweet! New models! Hope they look cool," then that's fine.
I still remember people being slammed with "shill", "marine sympathiser" and good old "white knight" because they dared to like some of the new stuff last time. Let's see what the new coddx and supplements bring.
I do accept gw is often the cause of the ire, but to poor timmy who wanted to talk about how cool it was his new winged dreadnought was that had fly. To be hit with a slew of ban marines, oh yay another unit to beat my npc faction with etc. Type comments, it must be draining.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: There are no winners here today friend..
Actually there are , the gw Arms Dealer allways wins.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Nailed it. And it's crazy the persecution complex that this has created among Marines players too. I won't name names but the usual suspects are certainly out in force in this thread. Yeah, there are definitely people on Dakka that go too far in their statements about Marines players and we've seen some nutso melodramatic threads here about boycotts. But the answer to melodrama is not more melodrama; that certainly doesn't endear me to the plight of the Marines player.
It really is a shame -- there basically isn't anywhere else on the internet that *talks about 40k the game* like Dakka does as a large, broad community (I guess B&C, but again it's still through a Marines-focused lens), so if one were to take a break from here, then one misses out on that. But boy... it's not the community it once was. Maybe I'm just looking through rose-colored lenses but it seems a shame.
I actualy remember 8th, and after every supposed nerf, eldar players were saying that now their army was fixed. Only it was never fixed, mass reapers procing off flocks of DE birds. Gone and Inari were suppose to be fixed. Rule of 3, were suppose to be fixed. Double dipping on stratagems, and again same thing. This is no persecution this is just remember how it was.
Same with advice given to marine players. Just play this one specific tournament lists in casual games and you are good. Ultramarine build won one tournament in Australia, guess marines are good. Never mind you are playing DA or SW.
We don't even have the marine codex or even the slightest idea what is in the necron or further books, and people are crazy enough to ask for deep marine nerfs. After an edition when marines were bad for most of the time. I get people asking for their armies being buffed. Armies should be buffed, and asking for nerfs out of spite , or worse because they think their faction is the one that should be on the top is an evil thing to do.
My only friend quit because of the anti IH hate. Started them at the start of 8th, full primaris army out of two dark empires. And over night he was turned in to the scaped goat of WAAC behaviour, by people who didn't mind tabling him for 2+ years. Worse I noticed that this wasn't a my store only thing. The whole world acted like that. Eldar players that had been dominating for years, suddenly couldn't live in a world where at the very end of an edition some other army was better. It tought me a lot about w40k and game balance in practic. No one cares about real balance, only about their factions being good, and it is better to have a fun and good set of rules, then a bad one. And people are willing to have a good set, over other people having their nerfed.
So in the end it is better to enjoy the time an army is fun, because waiting for it being good again can take years.
I also want to see tau or eldar players acting when their books come out. Wonder what happens if those are better then marines right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 791574 10918843 wrote:
No, the balancing is supposed to start whenever there is an imbalance. You know that, but because your army is currently on the top arc of the pendulum, you dont care and would rather gak on anyone who you can now look down on.
How about you stop being a complete narcissist and realize that maybe, just maybe, your poster army steamrolling everyone and everything isnt an ideal state for the game to be in?
I play GK. I have no access to any of the units or rules that make marines good right now. I am not steam rolling anyone, although comparing to 8, which was horrible by the way for a termintor GK army, 9th is fun for me. Hey GW even decided to add a core rule that screws my army over, because it gives a free minor by virtue of every model being a psyker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 21:42:30
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
I actualy remember 8th, and after every supposed nerf, eldar players were saying that now their army was fixed. Only it was never fixed, mass reapers procing off flocks of DE birds. Gone and Inari were suppose to be fixed. Rule of 3, were suppose to be fixed. Double dipping on stratagems, and again same thing. This is no persecution this is just remember how it was.
I mean, you list 'fixes' for four different armies there, and label them all under "problem Eldar players". Even though most of these things only affected a small subset of a small subset of people who play 'Eldar'.
Rule of 3 wasn't even really an Eldar thing, though it did affect them, as for a lot of 7th and 8th they only had 3 or 4 units that were actually 'good', and so spamming them was the easiest way to make a strong army.
Also, after "every supposed nerf", you're saying Eldar still isn't 'fixed'? Craftworlds is by far the weakest its ever been, with hardly any units actually competitively viable. All the things that made them viable have been removed, with nothing to replace it. Dark Eldar are bottom tier. Ynnari are -below- bottom tier, dwelling in some sub-basement somewhere, putting lotion on its skin or else it gets the nerf-hose again.
In fact the only Eldar army you didn't even mention, is the only one that's actually still good. It's also the only one that still feels like an 'Eldar' army.
People aren't annoyed with Marines because they have one or two strong units that can be spammed in tournament lists (which is the only thing that made Eldar "overpowered" before, those one or two units that were broken and spammable, as the rest of the book was average at best). People are annoyed because even the worst Marine units are better than most things other armies can put on the table. The average marine unit is becoming a force to be reckoned with.
If every army ends up in the same place... well that would be great. But it's also 12-36 months before we will know this. And going by the Necron codex (which is a lot weaker, so far, than the Marine one) it's not looking good.
So people are annoyed. Cos they want to play fun games with a variety of armies. But they would still like to win. And to win, right now, you need to wear power armour.
(My own view on this, is actually that while Marines is very very strong right now, the bigger winners of these changes will be Chaos. But Chaos don't get things like Eradicators, so maybe that will balance out.)
I actualy remember 8th, and after every supposed nerf, eldar players were saying that now their army was fixed. Only it was never fixed, mass reapers procing off flocks of DE birds. Gone and Inari were suppose to be fixed. Rule of 3, were suppose to be fixed. Double dipping on stratagems, and again same thing. This is no persecution this is just remember how it was.
I mean, you list 'fixes' for four different armies there, and label them all under "problem Eldar players". Even though most of these things only affected a small subset of a small subset of people who play 'Eldar'.
in fairness that's not unique here. I can't remember how often I've heard people act like iron hands, space wolves dark angels and even grey knights and custodes are "the same thing!"
It really is a shame -- there basically isn't anywhere else on the internet that *talks about 40k the game* like Dakka does as a large, broad community (I guess B&C, but again it's still through a Marines-focused lens), so if one were to take a break from here, then one misses out on that. But boy... it's not the community it once was. Maybe I'm just looking through rose-colored lenses but it seems a shame.
there are a few discords out there that manage to discuss the game, while also not being a endless pit of negativity. but I agree DakkaDakka is NOT what it once was, the hyperbolic negativity tends to drown everything out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 22:27:43
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Its a combination of power, the seemingly endless deluge of releases, and just raw comparisons.
In Dark Eldar world - if Lelith gets a 2 damage bump then she might be quite interesting. Still probably in worst cult - but you can get round that. But Jain Zar is standing right there looking obsolete so my faith isn't great. On the other hand Drazar did get a bump so... who knows?
in fairness that's not unique here. I can't remember how often I've heard people act like iron hands, space wolves dark angels and even grey knights and custodes are "the same thing!"
Oh I agree. It certainly happens both ways. I wouldn't have included grey knights or custodes in that list, but the others do get lumped together a lot. But then when it comes to -units- (rather than traits) being overpowered, it's fairer for the legions that all get access to those units to be lumped together.
Tyel wrote:Its a combination of power, the seemingly endless deluge of releases, and just raw comparisons.
In Dark Eldar world - if Lelith gets a 2 damage bump then she might be quite interesting. Still probably in worst cult - but you can get round that. But Jain Zar is standing right there looking obsolete so my faith isn't great. On the other hand Drazar did get a bump so... who knows?
I mean, Phoenix Lords are some of the worst units (for their points) in the game, and they have been for as long as I can remember. I suspect the reason for this is that GW have no interest in remaking the sculpts, and so they just throw down some basic rules and heap on a high points cost, so they know for sure they wont get played. Means they can just forget about them for an entire edition (or 4-5 editions, so far, and counting).
Problem is, this is the same thing they do with a lot of Eldar units. They take the rules that made them good (like advancing, remember that), give them out to everyone, but then don't reduce the points cost of the unit to compensate. This is why Eldar currently pay space marine prices, for guardsman defence profiles.
Well, we did get a new Jain Zar within the last year, so I'm hopeful that we'll see additional Phoenix Lord resculpts over the next few years.
The PLs just feel like no one has really give them a proper review in over a decade. Most of them don't have invuls, for instance. Which wasn't that big a deal when most weapons couldn't reduce or remove a 2+ armor save and you could hide the phoenix lord inside a squad of ablative wounds. But obviously that's no longer the case.
Right now, they're all hovering around 100 points, hit with less oomph than an optimized marine captain, and have buff auras that are roughly comparable to a captain's (but generally only work on a single type of unit). Which just... isn't all that useful.
I used to love running Baharroth because he gave my swooping hawks hit & run, chipped in an extra grenade pack, and (at one point) could even make enemies only hit on 6's. His squad of hawks behaved differently than they did without him. Now, he's basically a power sword jump captain whose buff only works on one type of unit (and not on himself oddly enough) and who ocassionally manages to toss out a couple cheeky mortal wounds instead of having an invul save.
I'd prefer he be roughly as powerful (and expensive) as one of the named marine characters (thinking chapter masters) and cost comparable points. Let PLs be the Shrikes and Calgars and Vulkan He'Stans of the craftworlders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/06 00:54:43
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
It's not the players, by and large, that are being attacked. It's GW for releasing such garbage balance.
.
Scroll up a couple posts to see non-marine players blame marine players for A) Not getting much sympathy when Marines were bad, and B) Earning the enmity they're getting now that Marines are good.
Am I the only person on the planet that plays more than one army? Seriously, some of the SM defenders act like everyone is locked into their armies and that they could never possibly understand that struggles of a marine player. I play 12 armies because I have been playing for 20+ years, including SM.
How is it hard to understand that people are getting annoyed by the constant stream of SM releases topped by the best codex in the game generally. Eldar have models that have been around longer than a good deal of the players in the game but SM are getting their entire line updated to "Primaris" status.
I completely agree that Eradicators punch way above their point cost which is plainly evident if you compare them to any other melta based unti. The argument that they are the new norm for melta units is a joke because it is not the norm until the majority of the units in the game reach that level, not if it is just the one.
If by some miracle Necrons do come out at the same level as SM when they get their codex that means that we are looking at a pretty cool edition once everyone gets a codex. Which could take up to three years. Which could also suffer from power creep that is inevitable in all things GW leading to SM becoming garbage until they get a 2.0 codex about halfway through the edition, but of course Necrons wont get any kind of update in the same vein.
I know their is a joke thread out there right now talking about Assault Intercessors but in my experience they also punch WAY above their point cost. I ran a group of 5 Assault Intercessors into a group of 4 GK Paladins and won handily, hitting 2+ saves with model with a high number of -2AP attacks coupled with SM's ease of access to rerolls is just insane.
So the balancing is suppose to start now, when tau and eldar, who were much better then marines in the past, are having less fun.
Ideally it would have started when the game was first created and been preserved forever, or at least when eighth edition started. Balance should start now because as far as I know no one has a time machine with which they can retroactively make earlier game states more balanced. So it should start now because now is the only time we have available to us to make it balanced.
So that's the first claim you put in my mouth.
And the starting is not suppose to be made by making other armies better, but by making marines weaker.
On the contrary, generally I'd prefer weaker books to get elevated to a level more on par with the Marines codex so they too can have a relative wealth of options with many viable picks instead of having to rely on one or two units.
Second claim you put in my mouth.
Just so when xeno players get their books they would double dip on power buffs, because not only would their books be made better, but also marines were made weaker.
Even if that is true, your presuming that relative parity can not be achieved this way when, frankly, this is not the case.
Yeah, I don't even play marines, I call bs on that. How about xeno player wait till they get their codex to have claims about power level of 9th, and then if those are unbalanced they can wait for a CA or FAQ to fix those problems. You know the way they were saying this to marine players in 8th.
You could also just see a therapist to work out your inferiority complex towards xenos players my man.
"Its different when I do it or it happens to me" doesn't generate a lot of sympathy either. Balance would be lovely. Expecting people to have a whole lot of sympathy for people who told SM players to suck it up and learn2play when Marines sucked - or worse told Marine players their armies deserved to suck because GW gave them all the cool models - well, I wouldn't hold my breath. Now you could say Karol should think further ahead, and realize the sucky army today will be the power house tomorrow who could support his complaints to GW, or tell him to learn2play again. As for me, I've seen too many GW cycles to worry if Marines go in the tank again for a year or two, and too much human nature to expect the people who don't care about Marine armies to care when it does. There's plenty of time for all kinds of long views.
Stop validating his whiny garbage, he assumes everyone is a xenos player.
Guess what? The only xenos army I've played in years except for a very recent Harlequins game (and Harlies are doing awesome right now) are Necrons, who were among the worst armies in eighth edition and unlike his precious Grey Knights never actually received buffs to make them good. Other armies I play? Custodes (also amazing right now), mono-Chaos Daemons, Thousand Sons, and... Grey Knights, his army of choice. But this dude is still rolling up on me with his anti-xenos spiteful bslol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/06 05:55:49
Engaging with Karol on anything eldar related is just tiresome.
He should draw some satisfaction that Richard siegler, arguably the best competitive player in the world, chose grey knights over custodes as one of his three armies in the art of war streamhouse RTT featuring four really top tier players. Considering how good custodes are I don't think grey knights players have anything to worry about. He can go crush eldar and t'au players while they wait for a new codex.
Argive wrote: There are no winners here today friend..
Actually there are , the gw Arms Dealer allways wins.
Touche....
Frustration is a buisness model after all in the gaming industry, not to mention that GW can conveniently spread out earnings over all quartals by selling rules piecemeal.
the only real losers are all the players, especially those that get a dex either early or late, in general.
Well those and SM players which at this point should be rebranded as Cashcowmarines.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I do not think custodes are VERY good. They are much better than they were, but they aren't winning tournies and against very competitive lists I have only seen defeats.
Frustration is a buisness model after all in the gaming industry, not to mention that GW can conveniently spread out earnings over all quartals by selling rules piecemeal.
the only real losers are all the players, especially those that get a dex either early or late, in general.
Well those and SM players which at this point should be rebranded as Cashcowmarines.
From my understanding of MtG, GW is moving in their direction. The amount of rule releases seems to have gone up a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/06 10:23:36
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Am I the only person on the planet that plays more than one army? Seriously, some of the SM defenders act like everyone is locked into their armies and that they could never possibly understand that struggles of a marine player. I play 12 armies because I have been playing for 20+ years, including SM.
Its forum wars. There are people who have seemingly decided they were faction "X" 5-20 years ago, and that means they are faction "X" forever, they'll never buy any more models or do anything else but complain about it on the internet.
I'm pretty happy to say i whinged when Marines were rubbish, and I'm whinging when marines are ludicrously overpowered. 7th edition Ynnari rules should never have existed, Alaitoc should have gone in the first CA, and the whole consequent direction of CWE the last few years should have been different.
When were eldar not OP, I know only 8th, but from stories told, it looks like they were breaking 7th and 6th ed real well too, and were much more balanced in prior editions too.
Ideally it would have started when the game was first created and been preserved forever, or at least when eighth edition started. Balance should start now because as far as I know no one has a time machine with which they can retroactively make earlier game states more balanced. So it should start now because now is the only time we have available to us to make it balanced.
So that's the first claim you put in my mouth.
And balance is starting now. The new sm are the new normal and balanced. If there are weaker armies, then they should be brought up to the level. The idea that to get balance the good stuff has to be destroyed first is stupid. It as if in sports someone who isn't the top contender asked for those that are to have their legs broken just to make things fair.
But history and past do matter. I have my sympathy for an orc player right now, but I have zero for a tau/eldar one. Specialy if they try to high horse and make the balance some sort of moral issue. Which it clearly is not.
On the contrary, generally I'd prefer weaker books to get elevated to a level more on par with the Marines codex so they too can have a relative wealth of options with many viable picks instead of having to rely on one or two units.
GW has three modes. It has changes that don't fix or change anything mode. I doubt people are asking for those regarding marines. They have the buff mode, which I don't think they are asking for either. And they have the kill mode, the way they fixed castellans, BA jump lists, dakka tyrant lists, Inari with their WD codex etc. So yeah asking for changes to a book someone does not use, is asking for their army to be nerfed. Unless this is some sort of magical thing where GW after 8 editions of writing rules decides to write them totaly different in that balanced manner, which to me ends in one way. The DA and GK codex when they came out were called balanced too, and it only ment they turned bad real fast. On the other hand an OP codex like the eldar one lasted almost a whole edition, as a best codex, and was a good codex to the very end of 8th.
Even if that is true, your presuming that relative parity can not be achieved this way when, frankly, this is not the case.
So what are you asking for, all codex coming out at the same time? That won't happen. Codex designed a year later, by different people, for faction testers, designers , sells departaments care in different ways to have the same level. I mean that is like me wishing to not be autistic or having blue eyes.
You could also just see a therapist to work out your inferiority complex towards xenos players my man.
My therapists has much bigger problems, but when I started w40k he actualy okeyed it. But good job making fun at someone with mental problems. Very classy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/06 13:16:15
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Nailed it. And it's crazy the persecution complex that this has created among Marines players too. I won't name names but the usual suspects are certainly out in force in this thread. Yeah, there are definitely people on Dakka that go too far in their statements about Marines players and we've seen some nutso melodramatic threads here about boycotts. But the answer to melodrama is not more melodrama; that certainly doesn't endear me to the plight of the Marines player.
It really is a shame -- there basically isn't anywhere else on the internet that *talks about 40k the game* like Dakka does as a large, broad community (I guess B&C, but again it's still through a Marines-focused lens), so if one were to take a break from here, then one misses out on that. But boy... it's not the community it once was. Maybe I'm just looking through rose-colored lenses but it seems a shame.
I actualy remember 8th, and after every supposed nerf, eldar players were saying that now their army was fixed. Only it was never fixed, mass reapers procing off flocks of DE birds. Gone and Inari were suppose to be fixed. Rule of 3, were suppose to be fixed. Double dipping on stratagems, and again same thing. This is no persecution this is just remember how it was.
Same with advice given to marine players. Just play this one specific tournament lists in casual games and you are good. Ultramarine build won one tournament in Australia, guess marines are good. Never mind you are playing DA or SW.
We don't even have the marine codex or even the slightest idea what is in the necron or further books, and people are crazy enough to ask for deep marine nerfs. After an edition when marines were bad for most of the time. I get people asking for their armies being buffed. Armies should be buffed, and asking for nerfs out of spite , or worse because they think their faction is the one that should be on the top is an evil thing to do.
My only friend quit because of the anti IH hate. Started them at the start of 8th, full primaris army out of two dark empires. And over night he was turned in to the scaped goat of WAAC behaviour, by people who didn't mind tabling him for 2+ years. Worse I noticed that this wasn't a my store only thing. The whole world acted like that. Eldar players that had been dominating for years, suddenly couldn't live in a world where at the very end of an edition some other army was better. It tought me a lot about w40k and game balance in practic. No one cares about real balance, only about their factions being good, and it is better to have a fun and good set of rules, then a bad one. And people are willing to have a good set, over other people having their nerfed.
So in the end it is better to enjoy the time an army is fun, because waiting for it being good again can take years.
I also want to see tau or eldar players acting when their books come out. Wonder what happens if those are better then marines right now.
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Sterling191 791574 10918843 wrote:
No, the balancing is supposed to start whenever there is an imbalance. You know that, but because your army is currently on the top arc of the pendulum, you dont care and would rather gak on anyone who you can now look down on.
How about you stop being a complete narcissist and realize that maybe, just maybe, your poster army steamrolling everyone and everything isnt an ideal state for the game to be in?
I play GK. I have no access to any of the units or rules that make marines good right now. I am not steam rolling anyone, although comparing to 8, which was horrible by the way for a termintor GK army, 9th is fun for me. Hey GW even decided to add a core rule that screws my army over, because it gives a free minor by virtue of every model being a psyker.
Except everything you listed ended up being fixed...
Dark reapers are still costed as if they could fire multiple times per turn.
Ynnari basically got destroyed.
How was rules of 3 put in the game because of eldar?
Double dipping on stratagems? What does that mean?
Again, you miss the point and focus on your eldar hatred.
The army doesnt matter, the balance does. When eldars were op, i was one of the people complaining about it even if i play the army myself.
There shouldnt be OP or unplayable armies in the game, you should know, you spent an entire edition crying about how your GK were gak.
Look at youself, you became the exact type of toxic player you were complaining about before.
EDIT:
Why does it matter if eldar were OP in past editions? GK also were in the past. Its a brand new edition, now is the perfect time to balance everything from the start.
Personally i just want balance, wheter that means nerfing SM or buffing everything else to their level (which i would prefer since theyre the only army that can actually play fluffy lists and still compete) doesnt matter, only the result does.
Oh and your therapist clearly didnt know who you were going to play 40k with because these people fethed you up big time with their toxicity.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/06 14:05:51
Karol wrote: And balance is starting now. The new sm are the new normal and balanced. If there are weaker armies, then they should be brought up to the level. The idea that to get balance the good stuff has to be destroyed first is stupid. It as if in sports someone who isn't the top contender asked for those that are to have their legs broken just to make things fair.
The problem with always buffing is lethality.
If Eradicators are the new normal then everything becomes so lethal the game is over in 2 shooting phases and whoever shoots first wins. That has already been a problem repeatedly throughout the game.
They had a make a basic Custodes t5 3w 2+/4++ just to be able to put out an army that actually fills the 'small elite force' without it being shot off the table in 1 turn (and even then I have run into plenty of armies that could cripple 9 bikes in 1 turn of shooting).
More lethal is often not better. So lets bring down the outliers to a more healthy level where battles actually last 5 turns with something left on the table and then buff what is below that.
Eldar- 4436 pts
