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Do you actually WANT the only objective to be killing enemy models?
Because to me, that sounds boring as hell as a default. An occasional game of that, whether to get a new player acquainted with the rules, or just a relaxing break from actually having to think beyond target priority is fine. But as the main ruleset? No. Not good.
I'm not going near the Tau Overwatch whatever the hell that is, but even in a game where the primary goal is to sit on objectives and secure them, the objective is killing enemy models. There are people who will make game losing decisions because their personal objective is to kill more. GW has continually tried to revamp their mission system, while inertia, human nature, and GW's own failures have pushed back on it. Look at the arguments over the secondaries. Its all about which skew lists can or can't give up or take which secondaries easily.
Daedalus81 wrote: It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.
There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.
15+15*6+6+5*1=116 not including BA, DA, DW, GK or SW. Adeptus Astartes have over 130 relics between them. Necrons have less than 20 between them. There are far more Necron characters than SM characters in the galaxy, they have the tech to make better relics as well. While any on Chapter might have access to as "little" as 23, Necron Dynasties have access to as few as 6 and no more than 7. Sorry about using SM and Adeptus Astartes interchangeably, I'm just thinking it's the same thing in low and high gothic respectively, didn't mean to say Codex SM.
Breaking news for you, there is a new necron codex, this will likely have different relics. Stop whining about a book thats got less than a month of life in it.
Different yes. Not 80 more though.
Breaking news: you can't use old book relics with new book
Daedalus81 wrote: It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.
There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.
15+15*6+6+5*1=116 not including BA, DA, DW, GK or SW. Adeptus Astartes have over 130 relics between them. Necrons have less than 20 between them. There are far more Necron characters than SM characters in the galaxy, they have the tech to make better relics as well. While any on Chapter might have access to as "little" as 23, Necron Dynasties have access to as few as 6 and no more than 7. Sorry about using SM and Adeptus Astartes interchangeably, I'm just thinking it's the same thing in low and high gothic respectively, didn't mean to say Codex SM.
Breaking news for you, there is a new necron codex, this will likely have different relics. Stop whining about a book thats got less than a month of life in it.
Different yes. Not 80 more though.
Breaking news: you can't use old book relics with new book
Can you honestly source that last bit? Because GW has been adament that you can play anything from 8th in 9th unless they outright say that it doesn't exist or is Heroes etc. I never saw where they said relics from 8th can't be used in 9th. I would love to ruin the day of a person in my local meta that is doing that to the extreme.
Seems a bit disingenuous to talk about Space Marines having 130 relics.
I mean when's the last time someone fielded a Space Marine Ultramarine Blood Angel Space Wolf Deathwatch Grey Knight Dark Angel White Scar Iron Hands Imperial Fist Crimson Fist Black Templar Salamander Raven Guard army?
My guess is never, so adding all the relics from the various Marine books is overselling it a tad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 15:42:12
H.B.M.C. wrote: Seems a bit disingenuous to talk about Space Marines having 130 relics.
I mean when's the last time someone fielded a Space Marine Ultramarine Blood Angel Space Wolf Deathwatch Grey Knight Dark Angel White Scar Iron Hands Imperial Fist Crimson Fist Black Templar Salamander Raven Guard army?
My guess is never, so adding all the relics from the various Marine books is overselling it a tad.
I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Seems a bit disingenuous to talk about Space Marines having 130 relics.
I mean when's the last time someone fielded a Space Marine Ultramarine Blood Angel Space Wolf Deathwatch Grey Knight Dark Angel White Scar Iron Hands Imperial Fist Crimson Fist Black Templar Salamander Raven Guard army?
My guess is never, so adding all the relics from the various Marine books is overselling it a tad.
And then there is the fact special issue wargear is identical between the chapters (save for special ammo and last item on list) so that number was wrong to begin with. AM/AA/DW/MCW counts as 4, not however many it was multiplied for bigger effect.
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Exactly, so theyll get 4 melta shots. Better cost like 60 points
What a friggin' gut punch that gun and the heavy intercessors are. It should be well more than 60 points. The double shoot just needs to go away at this point. Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.
The only thing I can glean is a gravis body is ~25 points. So the ultra Eradicators will be...45 points...
Oh...there is also a new keyword - CORE.
Chance of this not being a gak show is low at this point.
Xenomancers wrote: Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.
It takes...
12 railed saves
72 wounds
216 5+ Overwatch hits
648 shots, or 216 Fire Warriors in range of a Cadre Firebalde to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
It takes...
6 failed saves
12 wounds
36 hits
108 shots from a Heavy Burst Cannon to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
And a Lord Discordant can get a first-turn charge easily, by using Warptime.
Now calculate it for a simple rhino charging in before its payload and see how its not getting blown up on average
FTGG is a real thing. It's not going to survive overwatch from 3 mega units on overwatch. It would be a waste to try.
Standard riptide build now is ATS and reroll overwatch. Stratagem for overwatch on 5's. So 55% hits. Some cover gives 5+ to hit in overwatch too - if I was tau...thats where I'd put my broadsides and riptide for sure. Literally just giving tau free shooting phases. Don't act like this is viable strategy...It's called throwing units away to the wolves IMO.
Im telling you this as an ultramarines player who frequently overwatches with 4 units against people trying to charge with a disco lord. DONT DO IT. YOU ARE HANDING ME THE W.
You’re telling him this as an Ultramarine player who has consistently demonstrated an inability to understand your own army, let alone others, at even a casual level let alone the competitive level you insist on weighing in on all the time with completely underprepared, inexperienced, and downright illogical statements.
I’m not saying Tau aren’t a good army in 9th, I’m not going as far as some others have. But I will say absolutely nothing you’ve said so far has been even remotely accurate, and you are just clearly demonstrating how your incorrect gameplay decisions have led you to build up beliefs about the game from the perspective of a very casual level of play. Applying it to competitive discussion is a fallacy. Xenos you simply are not playing the game at the level of most the other posters weighing in here, let alone the higher level of play above that, that you assume your experiences will hold true all the way up to. I don’t doubt your experience has been what you claim. I’d just like to put it to you that your experience means far less than what you assume it does, and you having admitted to never even attending a competitive event, and self professing to not understanding the depth to how this game can be played competitively that some people are able to consistently win events without CHEATING, I really don’t think you should be making soooooo many posts always staunchly arguing these things with people and never ever even considering backing down or admitting you may be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence that you are mistaken gets. Even if your overall point is right here (doubtful) it would be by pure chance and absolutely not for any of the illogical reasons you’ve put forth so far. That’s not a good place to ALWAYS be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And wow, the idea that having to control objectives and actually having tactical spaces to play around, is less skillful than just lining Up models at their appropriate ranges each turn and seeing what the dice say, is just astounding to me. Have you put any real thought into the path your argument is currently taking, or are you just whipping that stuff out there because it’s a statement you can use to support your core argument here?
Ahh yes - here comes this guy to tell me I am not competitive. Thanks bud. Noted.
Have you seen all the new marine releases today? As a marine hater you must really be upset about the new toys we got to play with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 16:33:17
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/12 17:38:49
GW wrote:The kit includes loads more options, such as the ability to swap out their melta rifles for an even harder-hitting heavy version.
Why..
Why do we need MOAR primaris, with MOAR options when we have whole ranges neglected and or discountinued.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
...
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
I'm not the person talking about squid piss or replying with "So... you don't have a rebuttal?" I was only being exactly as childish as my interlocutors.
Necrons were the only Codex army not to get any love from PA, the armies that got buffs in White Dwarf got more than Necrons AFAIK. 1 updated character sculpt and datasheet. Cool. So no Necrons have not gotten a massive release, unless you mean Indomitus, mine is still in production so I haven't actually gotten those rules or models, besides most of the rules inside are either meh or useless. The Necron codex is still several months away as well. Maybe it was a dumb idea making a thread about how a unit is okay now because of meta changes several months in the future and maybe it's a bad idea to say that someone has gotten a massive release before it has been released. You know who got a massive release? SM, almost 12 months ago now and each SM then got more rules in PA and the sister codices got a lot of love in PA, far more than a single character upgrade, what was it BA got? 1 character upgrade, Doctrines, super doctrine, lots of Stratagems, a new chapter with its own relics, WL traits and Stratagems. Necrons have not gotten Doctrines, super doctrines, lots of Stratagems or a new faction with its own relics, Wl traits and Stratagems, we will in a couple of months, until then I think it is 100% valid for me to shut down any SM player that whines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 17:44:44
My point was that it was dishonest to talk about Marines having 130 relics, because "Marines" is too broad a term. You can't use all 130 relics because you cannot combine all the various Codices.
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
That is all the rebuttal that is needed, an SM player that whines because half their relics are bad should be told off and that's what I did. I didn't think it mattered that I counted 130+ because I had to count for the individual legion so 7 Relics vs 30. 11 vs 65 or 100 doesn't sound equal either. You can dance around this stupid pole all day, but SM players have no right to whine about half their relics being bad because it applies to every faction. Just like the SM players that whined when IH got nerfed, poor babies, you don't get more competitive relics than Necrons have relics all told.
Somebody please give Racerguy some more relics, the poor baby is crying.
I was the one complaining about Marine relics (and by the way I'm a Necron player too so there ya go), so plan your rebuttal for me. Also YEAH around 75% of the Marine relics are bad. For crying out loud, Iron Hands and Ultramarines get a worse version of the Burning Blade just because they needed to fill 6 relic entries! It's pointless!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Xenomancers wrote: Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.
It takes...
12 railed saves
72 wounds
216 5+ Overwatch hits
648 shots, or 216 Fire Warriors in range of a Cadre Firebalde to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
It takes...
6 failed saves
12 wounds
36 hits
108 shots from a Heavy Burst Cannon to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.
And a Lord Discordant can get a first-turn charge easily, by using Warptime.
Now calculate it for a simple rhino charging in before its payload and see how its not getting blown up on average
FTGG is a real thing. It's not going to survive overwatch from 3 mega units on overwatch. It would be a waste to try.
Standard riptide build now is ATS and reroll overwatch. Stratagem for overwatch on 5's. So 55% hits. Some cover gives 5+ to hit in overwatch too - if I was tau...thats where I'd put my broadsides and riptide for sure. Literally just giving tau free shooting phases. Don't act like this is viable strategy...It's called throwing units away to the wolves IMO.
Im telling you this as an ultramarines player who frequently overwatches with 4 units against people trying to charge with a disco lord. DONT DO IT. YOU ARE HANDING ME THE W.
You’re telling him this as an Ultramarine player who has consistently demonstrated an inability to understand your own army, let alone others, at even a casual level let alone the competitive level you insist on weighing in on all the time with completely underprepared, inexperienced, and downright illogical statements.
I’m not saying Tau aren’t a good army in 9th, I’m not going as far as some others have. But I will say absolutely nothing you’ve said so far has been even remotely accurate, and you are just clearly demonstrating how your incorrect gameplay decisions have led you to build up beliefs about the game from the perspective of a very casual level of play. Applying it to competitive discussion is a fallacy. Xenos you simply are not playing the game at the level of most the other posters weighing in here, let alone the higher level of play above that, that you assume your experiences will hold true all the way up to. I don’t doubt your experience has been what you claim. I’d just like to put it to you that your experience means far less than what you assume it does, and you having admitted to never even attending a competitive event, and self professing to not understanding the depth to how this game can be played competitively that some people are able to consistently win events without CHEATING, I really don’t think you should be making soooooo many posts always staunchly arguing these things with people and never ever even considering backing down or admitting you may be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence that you are mistaken gets. Even if your overall point is right here (doubtful) it would be by pure chance and absolutely not for any of the illogical reasons you’ve put forth so far. That’s not a good place to ALWAYS be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And wow, the idea that having to control objectives and actually having tactical spaces to play around, is less skillful than just lining Up models at their appropriate ranges each turn and seeing what the dice say, is just astounding to me. Have you put any real thought into the path your argument is currently taking, or are you just whipping that stuff out there because it’s a statement you can use to support your core argument here?
Ahh yes - here comes this guy to tell me I am not competitive. Thanks bud. Noted.
Have you seen all the new marine releases today? As a marine hater you must really be upset about the new toys we got to play with.
I love how they act like there is only ONE TRUE WAY TO PLAY and all others are to be pitied and spat upon.
I'm glad that the level some people play at is soooooooo much higher than others, why even play the game if you dont?????
Man, the horse that they ride on must be Imperator sized.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 17:53:20
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
...
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
I'm not the person talking about squid piss or replying with "So... you don't have a rebuttal?" I was only being exactly as childish as my interlocutors.
Necrons were the only Codex army not to get any love from PA, the armies that got buffs in White Dwarf got more than Necrons AFAIK. 1 updated character sculpt and datasheet. Cool. So no Necrons have not gotten a massive release, unless you mean Indomitus, mine is still in production so I haven't actually gotten those rules or models, besides most of the rules inside are either meh or useless. The Necron codex is still several months away as well. Maybe it was a dumb idea making a thread about how a unit is okay now because of meta changes several months in the future and maybe it's a bad idea to say that someone has gotten a massive release before it has been released. You know who got a massive release? SM, almost 12 months ago now and each SM then got more rules in PA and the sister codices got a lot of love in PA, far more than a single character upgrade, what was it BA got? 1 character upgrade, Doctrines, super doctrine, lots of Stratagems, a new chapter with its own relics, WL traits and Stratagems. Necrons have not gotten Doctrines, super doctrines, lots of Stratagems or a new faction with its own relics, Wl traits and Stratagems, we will in a couple of months, until then I think it is 100% valid for me to shut down any SM player that whines.
Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
The codex is in October, it is September. This is next month not "several months away".
How about a blood angels player who in 12 months had to buy a psychic awakening book to be close to access all their units, then has to buy a marines codex, then has to buy a supplement. Do they not deserve to complain about shelling out endless cash?
It doesn't, it just complies with "a marine player comaining", arguably they might complain at no longer having an identity rules wise, since "best in faction" may cease to exist for blood angels.
Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
The codex is in October, it is September. This is next month not "several months away".
True. Also the 'why necrons got no love in PA?' question has to consider that this probably wasn't the original release plan. The end of PA and probably the codex release schedule got run over by Covid.
The 2020 release schedule GW was aiming for on paper in 2019 (and/or 2018) likely looked very different from the reality we got this year.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/12 18:21:44
vict0988 wrote: I forgot my other 5 Necron codices and my 9 supplements.
So... you don't have a rebuttal?
...
Mature. So if necrons get 1 relic in the next book with a "on a 2+ before the first turn you win the game" they'll both be amazing because that's 100% of relics useful but still worse than marines because having 20something is still better somehow.
Also add the: necron players still whining despite having a massive release.
I'm not the person talking about squid piss or replying with "So... you don't have a rebuttal?" I was only being exactly as childish as my interlocutors.
Necrons were the only Codex army not to get any love from PA, the armies that got buffs in White Dwarf got more than Necrons AFAIK. 1 updated character sculpt and datasheet. Cool. So no Necrons have not gotten a massive release, unless you mean Indomitus, mine is still in production so I haven't actually gotten those rules or models, besides most of the rules inside are either meh or useless. The Necron codex is still several months away as well. Maybe it was a dumb idea making a thread about how a unit is okay now because of meta changes several months in the future and maybe it's a bad idea to say that someone has gotten a massive release before it has been released. You know who got a massive release? SM, almost 12 months ago now and each SM then got more rules in PA and the sister codices got a lot of love in PA, far more than a single character upgrade, what was it BA got? 1 character upgrade, Doctrines, super doctrine, lots of Stratagems, a new chapter with its own relics, WL traits and Stratagems. Necrons have not gotten Doctrines, super doctrines, lots of Stratagems or a new faction with its own relics, Wl traits and Stratagems, we will in a couple of months, until then I think it is 100% valid for me to shut down any SM player that whines.
Necrons got no PA content because they had a new codex round the corner, it was an intentional choice.
The codex is in October, it is September. This is next month not "several months away".
How about a blood angels player who in 12 months had to buy a psychic awakening book to be close to access all their units, then has to buy a marines codex, then has to buy a supplement. Do they not deserve to complain about shelling out endless cash?
Every body lost
Blood Angels/Wolves/Dark Angels players as you note.
Everyone else because so very much of Psychic Awakening was completely wasted reprinting again and again the same data sheets which we now know was a total waste of time.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Dudeface wrote: How about a blood angels player who in 12 months had to buy a psychic awakening book to be close to access all their units, then has to buy a marines codex, then has to buy a supplement. Do they not deserve to complain about shelling out endless cash?
They can just not buy PA as some SM players have said they didn't do because they grew tired of it No SM whining decree! /s Nah, it's totally fair criticism, as is criticism of a lack of external balance because one faction has more rules options than another faction, as is criticism of a lack of internal balance between weapon options. Some of the special issue wargear is quite strong, I like the idea of making an Aggressor's weapon master-crafted, not something I had thought of.
Dudeface wrote: As just pointed in the news thread, if you give eradicators multimeltas, theyre now dropping 12 shots per unit
At a single target. That quickly becomes overkill, same as a (still theoretical) larger squad.
Its one of those options that sounds horrific on paper, but against normal vehicles and small squads, the only thing you're eradicating is your spare points.
No 