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**Breton**

BrianDavion wrote:

So your problem is indeed reading comprehension. Go back and read his whole statement. as Breton said, it was a rhetorical question he provided the answer to.

Dishonesty is still in the running. Truncating a quote until it’s out of context is one of the easiest dishonest tricks to pull.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been awake enough to see the Community Post.

The Bladeguard get the Deathwing/Wolfguard tag.

The Speeder CAN have the Ravenwing tag if taken in a DA or Successor chapter.

I'm still pretty sure you won't be able to have mixed units - no neophytes in Primaris Crusader Squads - but maybe Phobos I still doubt it. No Wolf Guard in SW squads.

I think the fluff is going to morph. I suspect the Deathwing company will look like Termies and Heavy Intercessors. Non characters (Termies and Heavy Intercessors) may lose the Deathwing rule, or maybe you can add it to Heavy Intercessors. Regardless I suspect you can paint Heavy Intercessors Bone White, so a Deathwing or Combi-wing army will have some Troops choices without FOC shenanigans and they'll have some ObSec. Belial may or may not cross the Rubicon for the Heavy Intercessor style Primaris Captain. Sammael is almost certainly remaining the same - I don't see a plastic Primaris Jetbike sculpt any time soon.

Despite the hype suggesting DA are among the most suspicious of Primaris, the Wolves are the furthest behind on conversions. I would absolutely expect at least one Wolf character to cross the Rubicon. Logan on foot, or Ragnar. I wouldn't be surprised if two cross at once, one Captain type, one alternate character type Ulrich, Njall, Bjorn, etc. I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis. I'd be surprised if they a NEW named in Primaris. They have no named Primaris yet.

Assault/Shooty Intercessors give a Rhino/Impulsor Rush augmented with Bikers a White Scar Biker army an easy list build with Objective Secured.

Wild Riders are, sadly, still screwed so far.

**Racerguy180**

Ragnar already crossed over

**Breton**

One final note, did anyone else see the Versioning typo/error on the Heavy Intercessors? I'm guessing the Hellstorm was originally called a Heavy Auto Bolt Rifle, then had a name change. Check the upgrade options.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Ragnar already crossed over

I wondered about that with the SW Boxed Set he was in, but I couldn't find any datasheet that listed him as Primaris. OK this one will make it official, and I'd expect to see another character, possibly two. I'd expect to see another DA toon cross over, maybe two. They got a new named "generic" company Primaris Master. I suspect Azrael or Belial, potentially in addition to Asmodai, Ezekiel is less likely, Sammael is a long shot.

Mephiston already crossed, Dante is likely. The Sanguinor less so, but eventually. Tycho needs an update one way or another. The guy died before the first Primaris was able to breathe non-Martian Air. They could end up with a CM And a Captain, or one plus a Chaplain. BA Fluff is going to get a morph as well if Primaris don't suffer Red Thirst/Black Rage.

**Justyn**

BA Fluff is going to get a morph as well if Primaris don't suffer Red Thirst/Black Rage.

There were Death Company Assault Intercessors shown.

**Breton**

Justyn wrote:
BA Fluff is going to get a morph as well if Primaris don't suffer Red Thirst/Black Rage.

There were Death Company Assault Intercessors shown.

Right, No matter what there's going to be a morph. Either the Primaris aren't immune after all, or they were losing the Death Company etc. So now we're going to see they aren't immune, and they're going to have to fluff why no Primaris suffered from the Black Rage until now. My money is on some sort of psychic link spreading the Red Thirst and Black Rage like a disease and the Primaris were quarantined away until now.

**BrianDavion**

primaris death company are already a thing per Psykic awakening

**Breton**

BrianDavion wrote:
primaris death company are already a thing per Psykic awakening

Didn't buy that one, did they fluff it or drop it and walk away stage-whistling?

**BrianDavion**

Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
primaris death company are already a thing per Psykic awakening

Didn't buy that one, did they fluff it or drop it and walk away stage-whistling?

rules are in the supplement,

**Breton**

BrianDavion wrote:
Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
primaris death company are already a thing per Psykic awakening

Didn't buy that one, did they fluff it or drop it and walk away stage-whistling?

rules are in the supplement,

Not rules, fluff. Did they explain why for years and years on Mars and in the Indomitus Fleet no Primaris BA had the Red Thirst or the Black Rage, but now they do?

**Dudeface**

Catulle wrote:
I am aware, in the sense that it may make Mr. Face's trolling utterly transparent

Yes I'm trolling by quoting Stu Black on the 9th/indomitus reveal when they explained they intentionally didn't put PA content out for necrons as they acknowledged it would have been ridiculous to release it and simultaneously make it redundant the same week.

I also didn't mention marines, that was all you.

**Dysartes**

Breton wrote:
I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.

Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.

Breton wrote:
The Sanguinor less so, but eventually.

Given the Sanguinor appears to be a manifesting spirit, rather than a physical Marine, it seems unlikely.

**Lord Damocles**

Dysartes wrote:
Breton wrote:
I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.

Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.

They've got a white load of 13th Company now. Bjorn isn't special anymore.

**Breton**

Dysartes wrote:
Breton wrote:
I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.

Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.

That's whispered and will be whispered no more if they swap Bjorn over to squad Old Marines. Much like the idea Primaris are immune to the Red Thirst, Black Rage, Curse of the Wulfen, etc etc etc.

Breton wrote:
The Sanguinor less so, but eventually.

Given the Sanguinor appears to be a manifesting spirit, rather than a physical Marine, it seems unlikely.

I thought the Sanguinor was some dude welded into a Death Mask to hide his own identity and become a symbol? Or am I confusing something from 30K? Not that the fluff doesn't serve the game instead of the other way around. If they want to make him Primaris, they'll find an excuse. He may just get a bigger resculpt at the same time they drop the Primaris Keyword if/when old marines are squatted and they no longer need the Primaris Keyword. It's not like The Sanguinor is riding in a lot of transports anyway.

Thus why I'm looking forward to how/when/if they dance Bjorn into the Redemptor. That one is no-win. If they move him, everybody now knows Old Marines are getting squatted. I mean most people are already pretty sure it's going to happen, but there's no missing that as a confirmation. I suppose the easiest way is the also the laziest way. Ulrik collaborates with Cawl, and they transfer the sarcophagus directly from one to the other, and as long as Cawl isn't busy he builds a Redemptor Claw to replace the Redemptor Fist. Supposedly it's the sarcophagus that drains the inhabitant not the Dread or some such so both get to be true. Maybe Cawl crafts the new Bjorn Redemptor from scratch all by himself to fix the problem and make the claw. They're going to have to assign a pretty good writer to make this not suck fluff wise if/when they do it. And IF/WHEN they squad old marines, they'll do it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Damocles wrote:

They've got a white load of 13th Company now. Bjorn isn't special anymore.

Hes the first non-primarch to lead em. He's special. Always will be. He and Sammael are about the only Commander Types not Infantry. Bjorn aint going anywhere. They'll kill off Logan before they kill Bjorn.

**BrianDavion**

Lord Damocles wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Breton wrote:
I've already said I'm looking forward to seeing how they work Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis.

Given Redemptors destroy the interred Marine after a period of time, there's no way the Wolves would risk moving Bjorn into a Redemptor chassis (ignoring the GW Model team here, anyway) - he's their link back to Russ, and far too valuable to risk that way.

They've got a white load of 13th Company now. Bjorn isn't special anymore.

there's literally been no referance of that book since. I think we can throw it on the "gak GW's ignoring" pile. and frankly I'm fine with that, it wasn't a very good book

**Nitro Zeus**

Xenomancers wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.
It takes...

12 railed saves
72 wounds
216 5+ Overwatch hits
648 shots, or 216 Fire Warriors in range of a Cadre Firebalde to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.

It takes...

6 failed saves
12 wounds
36 hits
108 shots from a Heavy Burst Cannon to kill a Lord Discordant on Overwatch.

And a Lord Discordant can get a first-turn charge easily, by using Warptime.

Now calculate it for a simple rhino charging in before its payload and see how its not getting blown up on average

FTGG is a real thing. It's not going to survive overwatch from 3 mega units on overwatch. It would be a waste to try.

Standard riptide build now is ATS and reroll overwatch. Stratagem for overwatch on 5's. So 55% hits. Some cover gives 5+ to hit in overwatch too - if I was tau...thats where I'd put my broadsides and riptide for sure. Literally just giving tau free shooting phases. Don't act like this is viable strategy...It's called throwing units away to the wolves IMO.

Im telling you this as an ultramarines player who frequently overwatches with 4 units against people trying to charge with a disco lord. DONT DO IT. YOU ARE HANDING ME THE W.

You’re telling him this as an Ultramarine player who has consistently demonstrated an inability to understand your own army, let alone others, at even a casual level let alone the competitive level you insist on weighing in on all the time with completely underprepared, inexperienced, and downright illogical statements.

I’m not saying Tau aren’t a good army in 9th, I’m not going as far as some others have. But I will say absolutely nothing you’ve said so far has been even remotely accurate, and you are just clearly demonstrating how your incorrect gameplay decisions have led you to build up beliefs about the game from the perspective of a very casual level of play. Applying it to competitive discussion is a fallacy. Xenos you simply are not playing the game at the level of most the other posters weighing in here, let alone the higher level of play above that, that you assume your experiences will hold true all the way up to. I don’t doubt your experience has been what you claim. I’d just like to put it to you that your experience means far less than what you assume it does, and you having admitted to never even attending a competitive event, and self professing to not understanding the depth to how this game can be played competitively that some people are able to consistently win events without CHEATING, I really don’t think you should be making soooooo many posts always staunchly arguing these things with people and never ever even considering backing down or admitting you may be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence that you are mistaken gets. Even if your overall point is right here (doubtful) it would be by pure chance and absolutely not for any of the illogical reasons you’ve put forth so far. That’s not a good place to ALWAYS be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And wow, the idea that having to control objectives and actually having tactical spaces to play around, is less skillful than just lining Up models at their appropriate ranges each turn and seeing what the dice say, is just astounding to me. Have you put any real thought into the path your argument is currently taking, or are you just whipping that stuff out there because it’s a statement you can use to support your core argument here?
Ahh yes - here comes this guy to tell me I am not competitive. Thanks bud. Noted.

Have you seen all the new marine releases today? As a marine hater you must really be upset about the new toys we got to play with.

I'm one of the biggest Marine fanboys ever. All my books are marine related. My prize army is Marines. I have a Space Marine cover on my phone. I commissioned an artist to DRAW ME as a Space Marine - lol.

You knew all this though, because I mentioned it last time. You simply don't have any other response to what has been put forth, so this empty fallback is all you got. Someone thinks your points are, well, stupid? MUST BE A MARINE HATER

**Alcibiades**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.

Mechanicus has had T5 W3 troops for ages (with heavy weapons). Admittedly they are BS and WS 4+. But it's not like this is new.

If they are priced approximately the same as Breachers, or a bit more, I'm not sure I know what the novelty is.

**Insularum**

Thread seems to be getting a bit off topic to say the least...

After seeing that a multi melta is soon to be available to crank this unit up to 11, got me thinking about space wolves lone wolf strat, a 5w hide-able character that can quad shot a melta with all the rerolls seems to be the ultimate peak of how broken this unit can be.

Ridiculous niche scenarios aside, I still believe that it is the durability of gravis infantry more than anything else that elevates this unit above it's peers. Plenty of non-SM armies have access to similar levels of shooting; for example 6 fire dragons are only slightly more expensive, get the same total number of melta shots and benefit from battle focus, better movement stat and an exarch power - but none of that matters as dragons will be dead immediately after they expose themselves whilst eradicators (if you spam them) could largely shrug off the counter attack to go again next turn.

**Argive**

Insularum wrote:
Thread seems to be getting a bit off topic to say the least...

After seeing that a multi melta is soon to be available to crank this unit up to 11, got me thinking about space wolves lone wolf strat, a 5w hide-able character that can quad shot a melta with all the rerolls seems to be the ultimate peak of how broken this unit can be.

Ridiculous niche scenarios aside, I still believe that it is the durability of gravis infantry more than anything else that elevates this unit above it's peers. Plenty of non-SM armies have access to similar levels of shooting; for example 6 fire dragons are only slightly more expensive, get the same total number of melta shots and benefit from battle focus, better movement stat and an exarch power - but none of that matters as dragons will be dead immediately after they expose themselves whilst eradicators (if you spam them) could largely shrug off the counter attack to go again next turn.

You're obviously just a marine hater..

**Daedalus81**

Alcibiades wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.

Mechanicus has had T5 W3 troops for ages (with heavy weapons). Admittedly they are BS and WS 4+. But it's not like this is new.

If they are priced approximately the same as Breachers, or a bit more, I'm not sure I know what the novelty is.

Yes, the more I think about them the less I worry since they won't want to move much.

They'll make a great backfield babysitter, but in lists with point crunches to fit other good stuff we may only see them in synergy lists (IH,IF).

**Gadzilla666**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.

Mechanicus has had T5 W3 troops for ages (with heavy weapons). Admittedly they are BS and WS 4+. But it's not like this is new.

If they are priced approximately the same as Breachers, or a bit more, I'm not sure I know what the novelty is.

Yes, the more I think about them the less I worry since they won't want to move much.

They'll make a great backfield babysitter, but in lists with point crunches to fit other good stuff we may only see them in synergy lists (IH,IF).

Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.

**Breton**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Top that off with T5 W3 TROOPS.

Mechanicus has had T5 W3 troops for ages (with heavy weapons). Admittedly they are BS and WS 4+. But it's not like this is new.

If they are priced approximately the same as Breachers, or a bit more, I'm not sure I know what the novelty is.

Yes, the more I think about them the less I worry since they won't want to move much.

They'll make a great backfield babysitter, but in lists with point crunches to fit other good stuff we may only see them in synergy lists (IH,IF).

Price, as always, will be key. A ten man squad needs to be pricey. 30 T5 3+ obsec wounds will be hard to dig off of an objective, especially in a faction that can turn any weapon aimed at them into S5 for 2CP. You think Infiltrators are a problem? Wait until Raven Guard players use the same tactic with these things and Master of Ambush.

If we’re still talking about Heavy Intercessors they’re terminators who traded fists and invuln for obsec. I’m not sure I see a lot of units taking the heavy upgrades. They’ve got the three Intercessor style weapons, probably/maybe the strats for those get updated to include heavy intercessor versions, the heavy Bolter is still a heavy Bolter for those strats, but the other two Heavy choices are now maybe updates of maybe updates.

Aggressors + Heavy Auto/Hellstorm bolt rifles makes for a nice assault weapon Gravis Deathguard inexorable advance flavor.

Already mentioned they make good troops choices for DA DW or Combi wing lists. At 5 for 7PL I think we’re looking at about 28ppm, I’ve seen someone else say 25.

**ThePorcupine**

Breachers are 35 points for bs and ws 4.

**Gadzilla666**

ThePorcupine wrote:
Breachers are 35 points for bs and ws 4.

Right. Which means heavy intercessors should cost more than 35 PPM, unless gw thinks that 6++ is just that super awesome.

**JNAProductions**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
Breachers are 35 points for bs and ws 4.

Right. Which means heavy intercessors should cost more than 35 PPM, unless gw thinks that 6++ is just that super awesome.

To be fair, Breachers also have a pretty crazy gun. Not saying they're gonna be better than 25-28 PPM Heavy Intercessors, but that should be ntoed.

Unless that 35 PPM is their BASE cost.

**Sterling191**

JNAProductions wrote:

Unless that 35 PPM is their BASE cost.

Breachers are 25 points per body. Their wargear adds the extra 10.

**JNAProductions**

Sterling191 wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:

Unless that 35 PPM is their BASE cost.

Breachers are 25 points per body. Their wargear adds the extra 10.

Thanks for the knowledge.

**ThePorcupine**

That wargear is mandatory, so 35 is a minimum, but yes. If those marine dudes cost at least 35 with their weapons that would be ok

**Breton**

ThePorcupine wrote:
That wargear is mandatory, so 35 is a minimum, but yes. If those marine dudes cost at least 35 with their weapons that would be ok

Terminators are roughly 35 with a 2+, invuln, powerfist and an arguably equal/better gun.
Heavy intercessor war gear is also mandatory.

And as mentioned at 20 points per PL, 7 PL for 5 guys is 28ppm.

**McMagnus Mindbullets**

28-32 points a pop depending on loadout will sit about right with me. That would mean they don't get spammed as a clear favourite over other troops, but they're an attractive pick nonetheless.

I find it hard comparing them to breachers. Those dudes put out SHOTS

**psipso**

Breton wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
That wargear is mandatory, so 35 is a minimum, but yes. If those marine dudes cost at least 35 with their weapons that would be ok

Terminators are roughly 35 with a 2+, invuln, powerfist and an arguably equal/better gun.
Heavy intercessor war gear is also mandatory.

And as mentioned at 20 points per PL, 7 PL for 5 guys is 28ppm.

How's an storm bolter an arguably equal/better gun? Also, regular terminators are no op sec., are elite and they invul save almost pointless because they 2+ save