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Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Interesting list. No Makari (painboy instead) and no KFF...
My Ultras would mulch this list.
Seems he had some success though. I've honestly never had any issue with boys. IMO Gazz is also really overcosted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 14:44:58
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Xenomancers wrote: Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.
Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
I feel its hard to keep squaring this "orks are bad mkay" with decent tournament performances. When it was literally 2 results it could have been put down as a fluke, but it seems to be getting replicated every other weekend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 16:15:15
Tyel wrote: I feel its hard to keep squaring this "orks are bad mkay" with decent tournament performances. When it was literally 2 results it could have been put down as a fluke, but it seems to be getting replicated every other weekend.
People are figuring out how to game the objectives and manufacture wins still. Can assure you a dude winning with basically an army of boys really just understood the objectives of the game better than his opponents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 16:51:10
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 17:00:05
Tyel wrote: I feel its hard to keep squaring this "orks are bad mkay" with decent tournament performances. When it was literally 2 results it could have been put down as a fluke, but it seems to be getting replicated every other weekend.
People are figuring out how to game the objectives and manufacture wins still. Can assure you a dude winning with basically an army of boys really just understood the objectives of the game better than his opponents.
Also don't forget the Ork army that won literally through making the clock run out.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Someone running "Thousand Sons" got Top 10 in a tournament in 6th, but nobody was talking about that because if it can't be replicated easily it's a fluke.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 17:28:22
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Someone running "Thousand Sons" got Top 10 in a tournament in 6th, but nobody was talking about that because if it can't be replicated easily it's a fluke.
People like to pretend army X is not a massive problem just because army Y managed to spike a tournament.
Besides, 'massive horde of bodies wins tournament' isn't something new and was brought up as a 'solution' to winning in 9th almost immediately.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 17:31:46
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Someone running "Thousand Sons" got Top 10 in a tournament in 6th, but nobody was talking about that because if it can't be replicated easily it's a fluke.
This is a little bit on a different level. We can clearly see it wasn't through advantageous rolls or clever/misunderstood play. He just straight said, "eff it i'll swarm the objectives and still be able to punch a hole through your army".
I don't doubt the game versus the Aggressors could have gone either way, but that's not a bad thing.
Orks were strong in 8th edition. 5 attacks at STR 5 on a regular boy when you have 120 of them on the table is going to do alot of damage, does not take a genius to figure it out.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
Man I'm pretty firmly pro-play-to-the-mission, but even I can recognize that building an army to sit in the magic circles and die as slowly as possible is pretty lame.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great as long as you sit on the point, die as slowly as possible, and don't try to actually fight with them must be disappointing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 17:37:26
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great as long as you sit on the point, die as slowly as possible, and don't try to actually fight with them must be disappointing.
Thats not remotely how the winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great as long as you sit on the point, die as slowly as possible, and don't try to actually fight with them must be disappointing.
Thats not remotely how the winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th.
You tell me how winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th, I honestly don't know. I'm responding to the idea of playing to the objectives to compensate for a weak army.
Also I just noticed the writing of the list fooled me. He does have the KFF. It is listed first.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You tell me how winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th, I honestly don't know. I'm responding to the idea of playing to the objectives to compensate for a weak army.
By being aggressive, mobile, and running up and punching things in the face, while still maneuvering to score objectives. The notion that you can only get stuck in or just sit back on objectives while hopefully not dying is an entirely unrealistic portrayal.
The Goonhammer breakdown of the Boyz list from its tourney outing is a good walkthrough:
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
Horses for courses. I disliked the idea of being able to completely ignore a mission to just try and kill everything mindlessly. It removed a massive swathe of tactical play simply because your sole consideration was kill x amount.
There is a second rundown of how the list in question works in an earlier article.
Taken straight from the site:
Spoiler:
As ever, Shane is extremely reliable at upholding Goonhammer honour and this exceptionally brutal list piloted him to second place. Since Shane will be putting together his own report on proceedings I don’t want to steal his thunder too much, but we should hit the key points. First up, Ghaz continues to prove that he’s really, really good in 9th Edition – when we put together the Ork faction focus we’d seen a few people have some success with him both with and without Goff backup, but it says a lot about just how powerful he is that taking Goffs becomes a serious option, having been barely relevant in 8th. Taking one turn off the game makes his damage prevention ability even better than it already was, and just like with the Orion in the previous list he’s going to be a thorn in your opponent’s side for a lot of the game. He is, also, the ultimate trump card in any sort of monster mash, given he literally can’t lose a melee ruck in the first round.
This army fully leans into the Goff lyfe by upgrading all four units of Boyz to Skarboyz. The extra point of Strength combined with the force multiplication Ghaz provides makes these units even more dangerous than they normally are, and making the individual attacks more threatening helps to make up for it being harder to maneuvre lots of models into melee thanks to the new coherency and melee range rules. Huge hordes of Boyz with amped up numbers of attacks and strength are a very good counter to the Nurgle nonsense that’s been popular thus far, being one of the best tools for pushing through large wound sacks like Beasts and Chaos Spawn, which combined with them being Obsec lets this army counter that plan extremely well.
Ghaz and Da Boyz are obviously the focus of the list, and the rest of it appears to focus on making sure there’s a clear plan for the early game. Big Nobz in trukks (which can set up within a KFF bubble) provide a tool to push onto a mid board objective without exposing the Boyz to getting charged first by other high volume lists, and the Big Mek’s warlord trait ensures there’s coverage of ‘Ere We Go on turn 1 if Ghaz goes in a Tellyporta. Finally, a Weirdboy means the opponent has to operate under the ever-present threat of getting bowled over by a Da Jumping squad (and Unstoppable Green Tide also needs to be watched out for).
This list is a mean, green killing machine, and very much an army that you need to have some sort of plan to deal with, as I suspect it’ll only get more popular as time goes on.
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
Horses for courses. I disliked the idea of being able to completely ignore a mission to just try and kill everything mindlessly. It removed a massive swathe of tactical play simply because your sole consideration was kill x amount.
There are no less tactics involved in trying to kill everything than there is trying to control certain areas. You move models to certain areas of the map and try to kill particular units - while keeping certain units of yours alive. It is the exact same strategy...In fact - it is a great deal more reliable than taking a risk and going to a tabling.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
a_typical_hero wrote: There is a second rundown of how the list in question works in an earlier article.
Taken straight from the site:
Spoiler:
As ever, Shane is extremely reliable at upholding Goonhammer honour and this exceptionally brutal list piloted him to second place. Since Shane will be putting together his own report on proceedings I don’t want to steal his thunder too much, but we should hit the key points. First up, Ghaz continues to prove that he’s really, really good in 9th Edition – when we put together the Ork faction focus we’d seen a few people have some success with him both with and without Goff backup, but it says a lot about just how powerful he is that taking Goffs becomes a serious option, having been barely relevant in 8th. Taking one turn off the game makes his damage prevention ability even better than it already was, and just like with the Orion in the previous list he’s going to be a thorn in your opponent’s side for a lot of the game. He is, also, the ultimate trump card in any sort of monster mash, given he literally can’t lose a melee ruck in the first round.
This army fully leans into the Goff lyfe by upgrading all four units of Boyz to Skarboyz. The extra point of Strength combined with the force multiplication Ghaz provides makes these units even more dangerous than they normally are, and making the individual attacks more threatening helps to make up for it being harder to maneuvre lots of models into melee thanks to the new coherency and melee range rules. Huge hordes of Boyz with amped up numbers of attacks and strength are a very good counter to the Nurgle nonsense that’s been popular thus far, being one of the best tools for pushing through large wound sacks like Beasts and Chaos Spawn, which combined with them being Obsec lets this army counter that plan extremely well.
Ghaz and Da Boyz are obviously the focus of the list, and the rest of it appears to focus on making sure there’s a clear plan for the early game. Big Nobz in trukks (which can set up within a KFF bubble) provide a tool to push onto a mid board objective without exposing the Boyz to getting charged first by other high volume lists, and the Big Mek’s warlord trait ensures there’s coverage of ‘Ere We Go on turn 1 if Ghaz goes in a Tellyporta. Finally, a Weirdboy means the opponent has to operate under the ever-present threat of getting bowled over by a Da Jumping squad (and Unstoppable Green Tide also needs to be watched out for).
This list is a mean, green killing machine, and very much an army that you need to have some sort of plan to deal with, as I suspect it’ll only get more popular as time goes on.
That sounds like a really fun army to play against, honestly. Gosh I haven't played against Orks in forever. Mid 7th, maybe.
You tell me how winning Ork armies have functioned in 9th, I honestly don't know. I'm responding to the idea of playing to the objectives to compensate for a weak army.
By being aggressive, mobile, and running up and punching things in the face, while still maneuvering to score objectives. The notion that you can only get stuck in or just sit back on objectives while hopefully not dying is an entirely unrealistic portrayal.
The Goonhammer breakdown of the Boyz list from its tourney outing is a good walkthrough:
Actually reading through that it does seem that's exactly what he was doing against certain lists (More elite lists) and just was able to smash the CC armies off objectives.
It all seems like GW have made an epic fail in limiting a model to taking 4 wounds then giving you a way to heal that model for multiple wounds per turn. Especially given most armies will struggle to land 4 wounds in more than 2 phases and some are limited to realistically only having 1 phase against Gaz as charging him sounds like suicide.
a_typical_hero wrote: There is a second rundown of how the list in question works in an earlier article.
Taken straight from the site:
Spoiler:
As ever, Shane is extremely reliable at upholding Goonhammer honour and this exceptionally brutal list piloted him to second place. Since Shane will be putting together his own report on proceedings I don’t want to steal his thunder too much, but we should hit the key points. First up, Ghaz continues to prove that he’s really, really good in 9th Edition – when we put together the Ork faction focus we’d seen a few people have some success with him both with and without Goff backup, but it says a lot about just how powerful he is that taking Goffs becomes a serious option, having been barely relevant in 8th. Taking one turn off the game makes his damage prevention ability even better than it already was, and just like with the Orion in the previous list he’s going to be a thorn in your opponent’s side for a lot of the game. He is, also, the ultimate trump card in any sort of monster mash, given he literally can’t lose a melee ruck in the first round.
This army fully leans into the Goff lyfe by upgrading all four units of Boyz to Skarboyz. The extra point of Strength combined with the force multiplication Ghaz provides makes these units even more dangerous than they normally are, and making the individual attacks more threatening helps to make up for it being harder to maneuvre lots of models into melee thanks to the new coherency and melee range rules. Huge hordes of Boyz with amped up numbers of attacks and strength are a very good counter to the Nurgle nonsense that’s been popular thus far, being one of the best tools for pushing through large wound sacks like Beasts and Chaos Spawn, which combined with them being Obsec lets this army counter that plan extremely well.
Ghaz and Da Boyz are obviously the focus of the list, and the rest of it appears to focus on making sure there’s a clear plan for the early game. Big Nobz in trukks (which can set up within a KFF bubble) provide a tool to push onto a mid board objective without exposing the Boyz to getting charged first by other high volume lists, and the Big Mek’s warlord trait ensures there’s coverage of ‘Ere We Go on turn 1 if Ghaz goes in a Tellyporta. Finally, a Weirdboy means the opponent has to operate under the ever-present threat of getting bowled over by a Da Jumping squad (and Unstoppable Green Tide also needs to be watched out for).
This list is a mean, green killing machine, and very much an army that you need to have some sort of plan to deal with, as I suspect it’ll only get more popular as time goes on.
That sounds like a really fun army to play against, honestly. Gosh I haven't played against Orks in forever. Mid 7th, maybe.
I love playing against orks and look to continue the beef with my buddy's free bootaz when we can get back to playing.
Freebootaz are fun, if occasionally unreliable way to run orks. Getting that +1 to hit through targeting priority, positioning and such feels very rewarding. Much better than, yay I rolled a 3 on my chaplain! Or just spending a CP or whatnot.
Kinda feel like we need more rules design like that. For the Eradicators and aggressors they're giving up something sure, but firing at the one target feels not as much of a negative as having to stand still with range 18 guns. And even then, still feels like you're not really making a tactical choice as much as saying, yeah why wouldn't I?
a_typical_hero wrote: So a bad army with weak units scored 2nd place in a tournament environment against (supposedly) Aggressor bombs, Eradicator spam and all the other Dakka boogeymen because the player understood objectives better?
Yeah but it doesn't count because only pussies win by the mission, real chads win by tabling their opponents all day everyday
I didn't say it didn't count. I'm just saying that isn't a good army. Winning by any means necessary is honorable - It doesn't matter how you chose to win. The issue is they have removed the way I want to win because a bunch of cry babies were like..."why do we even have objectives if all games end by a tabling at turn 3 or 4?"...Now in order to play competitive I have to use gamey tactics - build an army not how I want to but because it denies secondaries.
This has to be satire at this point it just has to be. So building a mindless list that can consistently win by tabling someone by turn 3, isn’t “gamey”, but playing Orks to conquer midfield ground and objectives and chop the gak out of anything you can make it into melee with is? God the complaints some of you guys make. When has it EVER been viable to run less than 120 boys, let alone in 9th where scoring is more valuable than ever? Orks are the definitive horde army and the definitive army for melee’ing units off the midfield with obsec bodies. In an edition where these two strengths are bigger than ever why would we suddenly stop doing that? LOL. On top of that, did you actually read the article, or just look at the list and make a snap decision on how it was played to win? Since I know you didn’t read it, let me give you a few spoilers, he rushed his opponent down in every single match. What is even the complaint here other than “this result doesn’t suit my narrative!”
Xenomancers wrote: I think now is the time I just become a campaign gamer.
Oh jeez you mean you’re not already? Yeah you should definitely consider this very strongly at this point.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 02:15:02
Alwrath wrote: Orks were strong in 8th edition. 5 attacks at STR 5 on a regular boy when you have 120 of them on the table is going to do alot of damage, does not take a genius to figure it out.
Only way to get 120 Boyz at S5 with 5 attacks each is to spend 4CP upgrading each one to Skarboyz, which requires Goff Kulture and then only on the charge and only if you are using Ghaz who prior to his re-release was garbage and honestly, against good lists he didn't stand a chance either.
I was able to one shot him in a few games in 8th using my Campaign tournament list, and honestly, if he didn't die turn 1, he was absolutely dying turn 2.
If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
Eldar 
Imperial Guard 
Space Marines
