Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Ice_can wrote: Someone did the maths in the news and roumers thread with vulkan 1 6 man unit can 1 shot an Acastus class Knight which is 850 points
*sigh* With Vulkan 6 heavy melta eradicators do 24 wounds outside of 12, 33 within 12, average to a T9 2+ Fellblade. Good grief. If they don't errata the super doctrines Salamanders will have the equivalent to a Falchion in an infantry unit outside of 12, and something better inside of 12.
Ice_can wrote: Someone did the maths in the news and roumers thread with vulkan 1 6 man unit can 1 shot an Acastus class Knight which is 850 points
*sigh* With Vulkan 6 heavy melta eradicators do 24 wounds outside of 12, 33 within 12, average to a T9 2+ Fellblade. Good grief. If they don't errata the super doctrines Salamanders will have the equivalent to a Falchion in an infantry unit outside of 12, and something better inside of 12.
Yeah at this point they need banned, day 1 FAQ'd or LoW need some seriously massive buffs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/02 21:05:25
Ice_can wrote: Someone did the maths in the news and roumers thread with vulkan 1 6 man unit can 1 shot an Acastus class Knight which is 850 points
*sigh* With Vulkan 6 heavy melta eradicators do 24 wounds outside of 12, 33 within 12, average to a T9 2+ Fellblade. Good grief. If they don't errata the super doctrines Salamanders will have the equivalent to a Falchion in an infantry unit outside of 12, and something better inside of 12.
Yeah at this point they need banned, day 1 FAQ'd or LoW need some seriously massive buffs.
LOWs? Hell, every vehicle. If they can do that to one of the toughest units in the game, nothing's safe. +1 to wound needs to die.
Tyel wrote: FWIW - overkill is a thing.
But that's why you probably won't take the full 6. Three units of 4 is probably enough in most scenarios.
The mere threat of these guys, coupled with the fact that the buffs are beneficially against infantry as well as vehicles means that we are about to enter into yet another Horde edition, but SM players are going to do just fine with that because yay they still have aggressors which unbuffed nuke 20 boyz a turn.
Tyel wrote: FWIW - overkill is a thing.
But that's why you probably won't take the full 6. Three units of 4 is probably enough in most scenarios.
Right, if you have something really tough to kill (like a Fellblade or Achilles), just fire two squads at it, otherwise 4 man squads should melt normal vehicles.
Yeah Aggressors can "only" kill 2/3rd's of their points in Orks every single turn without any buffs or auras, while still having a solid defensive statline and having powerfists too. And now their flamers get increased range too.
Ice_can wrote: Someone did the maths in the news and roumers thread with vulkan 1 6 man unit can 1 shot an Acastus class Knight which is 850 points
According to Marine players...."Balanced"
Waits for Breton to claim they are underpowered......
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Daedalus81 wrote: Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aggressors LOST double tap.
So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.
Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.
Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.
CS?
If I'm piecing together the correct leaks and they are true we now have eradicators at same old points more damage, is that actually an easier to use shoot twice as they do NOT have to shoot 1 unit with all 6 of them?
Plus they now pack MultiMeltas.
I really want GW to include some of whatever their deaigners are smoking in the next WD as it's got to be crazy.
Combat squadding. Take 6 and split em for more sally rerolls and less overkill.
Daedalus81 wrote: Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aggressors LOST double tap.
So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.
Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.
Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.
CS?
If I'm piecing together the correct leaks and they are true we now have eradicators at same old points more damage, is that actually an easier to use shoot twice as they do NOT have to shoot 1 unit with all 6 of them?
Plus they now pack MultiMeltas.
I really want GW to include some of whatever their deaigners are smoking in the next WD as it's got to be crazy.
Combat squadding. Take 6 and split em for more sally rerolls and less overkill.
And more efficient use of detachment slots. Want two 3 man squads? Take one six man squad and split it, you still have two hs slots remaining. Or take two six man squads, split into four, one hs slot for that leviathan, new dakka floaty-not-a-predator, etc. Kills the whole "Three squads is all my hs choices!" argument doesn't it?
So are you getting the same feeling from what we've seen so far as me Daed? I.E.: loyalists toned down for the most part, but eradicators = "Holy scatbikes all over again 2020 Batman!"?
Edit: double post.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/02 23:57:16
So are you getting the same feeling from what we've seen so far as me Daed? I.E.: loyalists toned down for the most part, but eradicators = "Holy scatbikes all over again 2020 Batman!"?
Edit: double post.
So you're saying we should have waited for the codex?
I very much dislike the squad sizes. I don't know that GW has any other levers to pull to reign them in other than changing super docs.
Have we seen those leaked?
They have a bit less mobility which is helpful. That Aggressors got slapped hives me some hope they still have some other tweak, but the window is getting small.
So are you getting the same feeling from what we've seen so far as me Daed? I.E.: loyalists toned down for the most part, but eradicators = "Holy scatbikes all over again 2020 Batman!"?
Edit: double post.
So you're saying we should have waited for the codex?
I very much dislike the squad sizes. I don't know that GW has any other levers to pull to reign them in other than changing super docs.
Have we seen those leaked?
They have a bit less mobility which is helpful. That Aggressors got slapped hives me some hope they still have some other tweak, but the window is getting small.
My issue is that the waiting never stops. Y'know, that whole "arms race" you're always talking about.
Super doctrines are a supplement thing, so I doubt we'll know if they change until those get erratad to match the rules in the new codex. So probably not until release day, at the earliest. But a change for Salamanders would seem to be needed. But eradicators will be an issue even without the Salamanders super doctrine. Two six man squads, split up or not, could kill a knight a turn if they're Ultramarines with the heavy meltas. Even if they aren't, with the -1 to hit from moving they'll average 16 wounds on a T8 3+ target for each six (doesn't matter if it's one squad of six or two of three). That's all without buffs btw. So that's a 365 PPM Repulsive Executioner slagged per turn by 240 points of models.
I'll always love how marine apologist respond with "But your unit is actually crap" when somebody mentions a actually competitive unit of their codex and how inferior it is to a space marine unit, even after this one has been nerfed.
Space Marine units exist in a perpetual state of being "fine" (That translates to absolutely OP) and "unusable crap" (That range goes from good to actually kinda bad)
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The straight D3 was why you were taking the Thunder Hammer anyway. They could've made it AP-1 and it would still be taken over a Power Fist.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The straight D3 was why you were taking the Thunder Hammer anyway. They could've made it AP-1 and it would still be taken over a Power Fist.
Go on.
Uh not much to go on about. The straight reliability of the Thunder Hammer while not being stuck to just Terminators made them incredibly popular for your Smash Characters. The AP didn't really matter since most worthy targets will have an Invul of some kind.
Ergo if the Thunder Hammer isn't still absurdly expensive it will still be taken over a Power Fist. Power Fists are straight D2 I think now though which helps but not much.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
My issue is that the waiting never stops. Y'know, that whole "arms race" you're always talking about.
480 for 12
"The waiting never stops"
It didn't for GK for quite a long time. So for 1 in 25 there was a lot of waiting.
Everything else happened along the schedule GW defined. Whether or not it changed things the way you or I wanted or expected is irrelevant. What did happen was continual updates that attempted to tackle root issues. We knew the design after a few books.
I don't buy a car without knowing the price, right?
Why would I spend my time bitching about Aggressors (and setting up disingenuous comparisons by using max shots - not you)?
And low and behold the anticipated nerf was real. Waiting was appropriate, was it not?
Arms race is less of a concern. We have PA as a stop gap and were not looking at index to codex levels of variance in play style (but certainly in potential unit updates). The new gear is points based so if the points are reasonable it may be a wash.
So, yes, ill wait and see if there's more info on eradicators. If they're bs then they're bs. If the 2 week FAQ doesn't turn them around *if* they're bsthen riot.
+1A per claw is a decent little buff, wonder if when we get a CSMfaq to change all the weapons they remember to apply that to my Claws of the Black Hunt relic.
Although (assuming no points changes) does +1A and +1W make a warp talon worth 27points? Still don't think so, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/03 04:06:02
Vanican wrote: +1A per claw is a decent little buff, wonder if when we get a CSMfaq to change all the weapons they remember to apply that to my Claws of the Black Hunt relic.
Although (assuming no points changes) does +1A and +1W make a warp talon worth 27points? Still don't think so, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.
If assault intercessors stay 27 then it is +1 ap, 5++, reroll wounds and deepstrike/fly for 10. Feels steep.
Is that in reference to my efficiency remark on eradicators vs a Repulsor Executioner? That was 6 eradicators. Double firing, assuming they moved to get the shot so are - 1 to hit: 12×.5=6 hits, S8 vs T8 wounding on 4s 6×.5=3 wounds, AP-4 blows right through the armour so no save Dd6+2 averages 5.5 damage per wound gets you 16 wounds, or a dead Repulsor Executioner. That's from 6 eradicators: 240 points.
"The waiting never stops"
It didn't for GK for quite a long time. So for 1 in 25 there was a lot of waiting.
Everything else happened along the schedule GW defined. Whether or not it changed things the way you or I wanted or expected is irrelevant. What did happen was continual updates that attempted to tackle root issues. We knew the design after a few books.
I don't buy a car without knowing the price, right?
Why would I spend my time bitching about Aggressors (and setting up disingenuous comparisons by using max shots - not you)?
And low and behold the anticipated nerf was real. Waiting was appropriate, was it not?
Arms race is less of a concern. We have PA as a stop gap and were not looking at index to codex levels of variance in play style (but certainly in potential unit updates). The new gear is points based so if the points are reasonable it may be a wash.
So, yes, ill wait and see if there's more info on eradicators. If they're bs then they're bs. If the 2 week FAQ doesn't turn them around *if* they're bsthen riot.
Oh, I'm not rioting. We've all seen this before. Like I said "scatbikes 2020". I just find it odd they did such a good job on the rest of the codex but missed the mark on eradicators. But if they change the Salamanders super doctrine, no worries, they'll still bounce off of my Fellblade and Achilles, assuming I'm stupid enough to let a full squad get within 24. I like a lot of these changes and they've got me excited for the new csm codex and the Imperial Armour Compendium. I hope I'm not disappointed.
BTW did you notice +1A per LC?
No, I didn't. See, something to get excited about. Warp talons with 4 attacks on the charge. They'll shred loyalists. Assuming they kept shred. They still reroll wounds right? And Reaper ACs are AP-2 now. I'm sure that will apply to normal ACs as well. Maybe butcher cannons? Yeah, can't wait to see the Compendium.
Vanican wrote: +1A per claw is a decent little buff, wonder if when we get a CSMfaq to change all the weapons they remember to apply that to my Claws of the Black Hunt relic.
Although (assuming no points changes) does +1A and +1W make a warp talon worth 27points? Still don't think so, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.
If assault intercessors stay 27 then it is +1 ap, 5++, reroll wounds and deepstrike/fly for 10. Feels steep.
Not for Night Lords if we keep Prey On The Weak and Raptor Strike.
Edit: Oh yeah. Chainfists are flat 3 damage against vehicles. Now that's how they're supposed to work. Almost like having Armourbane back again. Here's hoping dreadnought chainfists/claws get a similar boost (build sheet for the ironclad had them at D2d3, so, flat 6 against vehicles? My Contemptor would love that).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/03 05:22:49
double post.
I just find it odd they did such a good job on the rest of the codex but missed the mark on eradicators. But if they change the Salamanders super doctrine, no worries, they'll still bounce off of my Fellblade and Achilles, assuming I'm stupid enough to let a full squad get within 24. I like a lot of these changes and they've got me excited for the new