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“All the while Marines are still capable of losing regularly”. Mate Castellan in its Prime lost regularly. Ynnari lost regularly. 5th Ed GK lost regularly. The fact that you keep leaning on this deceptive language tells us all you know that Marines are OP. OP doesn’t mean losing isn’t a regular occurrence, this is just a sorry fallback.
Eliminators didn’t really lose the +1 to hit, they actually got the baked into their base stats with BS 2+ now, without the serge needing to give up his shots.
While the rifle lost the scoot after overwatch, it now has scoot after every shooting phase.
The biggest nerf to them is the mortal wound shot is on an unmodified 6 now.
lol at listing Dreadnoughts as being nerfed because they lost Bolter discipline. Yeah forget about everything they gained right, they are NERFED because they lost one rule that barely even makes a difference for their usual loadouts.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I will say, normally, we'll be finding out soon enough how well the codexes will be performing. Of course, with real world issues right now, that might not be as easy as it sounds for us to get a decent data set to start making judgement on.
I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
How much do other armies pay for that statline, those guns and those abilities (if they even have access to them)? How many of those armies also have access to re-rolls which don't cost CP or aren't once per game abilities?
There's your answer.
Alternatively, read the thread to see all of the countless comparisons showing how much Eradicators outperform literally every single other anti-tank unit in the game, while often costing less.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/04 23:13:14
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Ice_can wrote: Seriously those defending Marines as Balanced need to watch the Tabletob Titans Review of the codex.
Spoiler:
They state the codex has NOT BEEN NERFED it just aide shifted into you will now want different units.
To be fair to this, they also said that before they knew that all the Repulsor style tanks had lost fly, and a few other things.
That being said, marines still look to be on the strong side, but I think there has been enough toned down that they hopefully won't be opressive anymore. I also think they hit the nail on the head when the mentioned that it's also a really easy army to play, which is a huge factor.
Eradicators should get day 1 FAQd with higher points though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 23:14:40
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Nothing at all. Its just a conspiracy because everyone hates marines..
Ice_can wrote: Seriously those defending Marines as Balanced need to watch the Tabletob Titans Review of the codex.
Spoiler:
They state the codex has NOT BEEN NERFED it just aide shifted into you will now want different units.
To be fair to this, they also said that before they knew that all the Repulsor style tanks had lost fly, and a few other things.
That being said, marines still look to be on the strong side, but I think there has been enough toned down that they hopefully won't be opressive anymore. I also think they hit the nail on the head when the mentioned that it's also a really easy army to play, which is a huge factor.
Eradicators should get day 1 FAQd with higher points though.
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword?
And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 23:19:14
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Nothing at all. Its just a conspiracy because everyone hates marines..
Ice_can wrote: Seriously those defending Marines as Balanced need to watch the Tabletob Titans Review of the codex.
Spoiler:
They state the codex has NOT BEEN NERFED it just aide shifted into you will now want different units.
To be fair to this, they also said that before they knew that all the Repulsor style tanks had lost fly, and a few other things.
That being said, marines still look to be on the strong side, but I think there has been enough toned down that they hopefully won't be opressive anymore. I also think they hit the nail on the head when the mentioned that it's also a really easy army to play, which is a huge factor.
Eradicators should get day 1 FAQd with higher points though.
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword?
And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Fly makes a huge difference even after the nerfs with all the terrain on battlefields and the size of those tanks. It's the difference between staying completely out of LoS, and then being able to move and shoot fully, or being able to be shot out in the open because you cannot maneuver as well.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Nothing at all. Its just a conspiracy because everyone hates marines..
Ice_can wrote: Seriously those defending Marines as Balanced need to watch the Tabletob Titans Review of the codex.
They state the codex has NOT BEEN NERFED it just aide shifted into you will now want different units.
To be fair to this, they also said that before they knew that all the Repulsor style tanks had lost fly, and a few other things.
That being said, marines still look to be on the strong side, but I think there has been enough toned down that they hopefully won't be opressive anymore. I also think they hit the nail on the head when the mentioned that it's also a really easy army to play, which is a huge factor.
Eradicators should get day 1 FAQd with higher points though.
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword?
And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Fly makes a huge difference even after the nerfs with all the terrain on battlefields and the size of those tanks. It's the difference between staying completely out of LoS, and then being able to move and shoot fully, or being able to be shot out in the open because you cannot maneuver as well.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! It means primaris tanks have to play by the same terrain rules as real tanks. It's an even bigger nerf to Impulsors that can no longer just pass straight over terrain in order to get their payload where they want it. I dig it.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Nothing at all. Its just a conspiracy because everyone hates marines..
Ice_can wrote: Seriously those defending Marines as Balanced need to watch the Tabletob Titans Review of the codex.
Spoiler:
They state the codex has NOT BEEN NERFED it just aide shifted into you will now want different units.
To be fair to this, they also said that before they knew that all the Repulsor style tanks had lost fly, and a few other things.
That being said, marines still look to be on the strong side, but I think there has been enough toned down that they hopefully won't be opressive anymore. I also think they hit the nail on the head when the mentioned that it's also a really easy army to play, which is a huge factor.
Eradicators should get day 1 FAQd with higher points though.
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword? And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Fly makes a huge difference even after the nerfs with all the terrain on battlefields and the size of those tanks. It's the difference between staying completely out of LoS, and then being able to move and shoot fully, or being able to be shot out in the open because you cannot maneuver as well.
Fair point. But in my mind nobody ever took repulsors for their manoeuvrability... trying to hide them never been easy even with fly. Their high toughness wounds and guns is still their shtick.
Did impulsor also loose fly ? I think that would be a much bigger nerf.
I think its only fair due to ad-mech tanks getting shafted
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Nothing at all. Its just a conspiracy because everyone hates marines..
Ice_can wrote: Seriously those defending Marines as Balanced need to watch the Tabletob Titans Review of the codex.
They state the codex has NOT BEEN NERFED it just aide shifted into you will now want different units.
To be fair to this, they also said that before they knew that all the Repulsor style tanks had lost fly, and a few other things.
That being said, marines still look to be on the strong side, but I think there has been enough toned down that they hopefully won't be opressive anymore. I also think they hit the nail on the head when the mentioned that it's also a really easy army to play, which is a huge factor.
Eradicators should get day 1 FAQd with higher points though.
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword?
And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Fly makes a huge difference even after the nerfs with all the terrain on battlefields and the size of those tanks. It's the difference between staying completely out of LoS, and then being able to move and shoot fully, or being able to be shot out in the open because you cannot maneuver as well.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! It means primaris tanks have to play by the same terrain rules as real tanks. It's an even bigger nerf to Impulsors that can no longer just pass straight over terrain in order to get their payload where they want it. I dig it.
Feels like skimmers are going to have a nieche again.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/04 23:32:48
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
How much do other armies pay for that statline, those guns and those abilities (if they even have access to them)? How many of those armies also have access to re-rolls which don't cost CP or aren't once per game abilities?
There's your answer.
Alternatively, read the thread to see all of the countless comparisons showing how much Eradicators outperform literally every single other anti-tank unit in the game, while often costing less.
CSM pay 25 PPM for T4 1W 3+ dude with a single shot 12" Melta. (Champ has a Combi-Melta, not just a normal one, though.)
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword?
And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Well it depends on how you play I suppose but over here that thing having FLY made it incredibly frustrating to fight against. We play with quite a bit of high terrain/buildings and that thing parking itself on top of them being nonchargeable or being able to deliver it payload guaranteed T2 at the latest when all other transports/tanks had to take the long way around for LoS/transporting made it so much better than other tanks/transports. While I agree overall game balance should be more important than fluff, in this case the things being able to park themselves on top of buildings being unfluffy also bothered me.
Nitro Zeus wrote: lol at listing Dreadnoughts as being nerfed because they lost Bolter discipline. Yeah forget about everything they gained right, they are NERFED because they lost one rule that barely even makes a difference for their usual loadouts.
Deceptive was right. Wow.
I said I was going to list nerfs. That was a nerf. If I said I was going to call everything out then I would be being deceptive, but you're just a goon looking to pick a fight so push off, yea?
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword?
And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Well it depends on how you play I suppose but over here that thing having FLY made it incredibly frustrating to fight against. We play with quite a bit of high terrain/buildings and that thing parking itself on top of them being nonchargeable or being able to deliver it payload guaranteed T2 at the latest when all other transports/tanks had to take the long way around for LoS/transporting made it so much better than other tanks/transports. While I agree overall game balance should be more important than fluff, in this case the things being able to park themselves on top of buildings being unfluffy also bothered me.
I am guilty of parking my wave serpent on a ruin pinnacle a foot above the battle field
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
How much does loosing fly really matter when its no longer god level keyword? And the fly nerf hits other factions & units much harder then repulsor/impulsor so its not really a marine specific nerf.
Well it depends on how you play I suppose but over here that thing having FLY made it incredibly frustrating to fight against. We play with quite a bit of high terrain/buildings and that thing parking itself on top of them being nonchargeable or being able to deliver it payload guaranteed T2 at the latest when all other transports/tanks had to take the long way around for LoS/transporting made it so much better than other tanks/transports. While I agree overall game balance should be more important than fluff, in this case the things being able to park themselves on top of buildings being unfluffy also bothered me.
I am guilty of parking my wave serpent on a ruin pinnacle a foot above the battle field
Oh make no mistake if my tanks could do it I'd do the same, we play to win over here (in fact I'm known for tokyo drifting my tanks for advantage). I'm just saying a hovertank being able to scale buildings like that makes no sense fluffwise and I'm glad they lost the ability to do so .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 00:41:17
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
You rarely split fire melta weapons so you can easily consider them as being 2 shots.
Find me an equivalent unit that have the damage output, at similar ranges while being as durable and prove to us all how they are not broken.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
You rarely split fire melta weapons so you can easily consider them as being 2 shots.
Find me an equivalent unit that have the damage output, at similar ranges while being as durable and prove to us all how they are not broken.
Old marine attack bike with a multi melta?
Honestly if you guys are still getting pissed about eradicators you are going to hate the new melta rules in general. Any unit with multi meltas will be putting out similar damage to the new eradicators. Even if you nerf eradicators any other melta option in SM will just replace them.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
You rarely split fire melta weapons so you can easily consider them as being 2 shots.
Find me an equivalent unit that have the damage output, at similar ranges while being as durable and prove to us all how they are not broken.
Old marine attack bike with a multi melta?
Honestly if you guys are still getting pissed about eradicators you are going to hate the new melta rules in general. Any unit with multi meltas will be putting out similar damage to the new eradicators. Even if you nerf eradicators any other melta option in SM will just replace them.
You realise that eradicators get a multiMelta for +10 points aka 50 and gets 4 shoots with it so cheaper than your example for twice the shots.
Also can marine player's try looking outside of their top codex in the game of units for something if they are going to claim eradicators are needed/okay.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
An Ork Deff Kopta would be the closest thing I can think of as far as durability wise and weapon wise, the best unit we have for anti-tank would be hte tankbustas but they are the definition of glass cannon.
Eradicator is T5, 3W 3+ save and comes standard with what amounts to a 2 shot melta gun that does D6+2 damage per wound at half range, so min 3, likely 5+.
The Deff Kopta is T5 4W but 4+ save and comes with an upgrade to 2 S8 -2 AP 3dmg rokkitz but they hit on 5s instead of 3s. And it costs 10pts more.
The equivalent to 1 eradicator would be 2 Tankbustas at 34pts. T4 1W 6+ save armed with a single shot Rokkit at 24' range S8 -2AP 3dmg, however they get to reroll misses against vehicles, but they also hit on 5s, so full rerolls equates to basically BS4.
At max range the Tankbustas have a 1.2 chance to hit a T7 or less vehicle, 0.8 chance to wound and .53 chance to go through a 3+ save to do 3 dmg. So they average about 1.5dmg a turn.
The Eradicator has a 1.2 chance to hit a T7 or less vehicle, .8 chance to wound and it will go through all but a 2+ or invuln so .8 chance to do D6dmg which averages out to 2.8 dmg a turn, if he is within half range it becomes 4.8
In return, the Marine at T5 3W 3+ save takes 27 bolter hits to die on average, the Tankbustas need 4-5 bolter hits. So the Marine is roughly 5x more durable to small arms fire.
So why are they broken? Well, they do more damage than basically every other dedicated anti-tank unit in the game point for point and are incredibly durable for their cost. Throw in the upgrades to heavy and multi-melta and its even worse.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
You rarely split fire melta weapons so you can easily consider them as being 2 shots.
Find me an equivalent unit that have the damage output, at similar ranges while being as durable and prove to us all how they are not broken.
Old marine attack bike with a multi melta?
Honestly if you guys are still getting pissed about eradicators you are going to hate the new melta rules in general. Any unit with multi meltas will be putting out similar damage to the new eradicators. Even if you nerf eradicators any other melta option in SM will just replace them.
Attack bike is actually slightly more durable with 4 W at T5 and 3+. However, the old Multi-melta was 1 shot at S8, so its literally got HALF the damage output as an Eradicator and it costs 55pts with the upgrade, so its 15pts more expensive. I believe in 9th, because GW is ridiculous, it actually dropped to 50pts but meh.
Also, I do love when SM players are asked to find a unit as broken as this and they immediately respond with another SM unit
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
That was my original question. They're good. They're not as good as most of the people whining about them are making them out to be. That Melta Rifle is an Assault Weapon, meaning they can advance + shoot. 5" move plus 3.5" advance + 1" Guilliman + It's always Tactical In Eradicataor Town (Multiple Warlord Trait/Strat Shenanigans) is pretty good. Supposedly there's some way to Deep Strike them, but I never found it.
Samuhell wrote:I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
Breton wrote:That was my original question. They're good. They're not as good as most of the people whining about them are making them out to be. That Melta Rifle is an Assault Weapon, meaning they can advance + shoot. 5" move plus 3.5" advance + 1" Guilliman + It's always Tactical In Eradicataor Town (Multiple Warlord Trait/Strat Shenanigans) is pretty good. Supposedly there's some way to Deep Strike them, but I never found it.
There are precious few units in the game that can throw out 1 melta shot per 20pts invested, out to a range of 24", on a platform with T5/W3/3+ for 40ppm.
If Eradicators aren't absolutely fantastic in your mind, I want to see an example of what is, and show us how it compares in terms of damage-per-cost while having comparable range and durability. Seriously, what would you consider better?
Bonus points: Something that isn't also Marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 05:10:35
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
That was my original question. They're good. They're not as good as most of the people whining about them are making them out to be. That Melta Rifle is an Assault Weapon, meaning they can advance + shoot. 5" move plus 3.5" advance + 1" Guilliman + It's always Tactical In Eradicataor Town (Multiple Warlord Trait/Strat Shenanigans) is pretty good. Supposedly there's some way to Deep Strike them, but I never found it.
yes, nothing to see here folks, just a T5 3 wound marine with what amounts to a 2 shot melta gun at 24' range for 40pts, no biggie. Care to compare that to a similar unit like we've been doing for awhile now? How do they stack up against each other? Yeah, that is what I thought.
Samuhell wrote: I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.
I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?
That was my original question. They're good. They're not as good as most of the people whining about them are making them out to be. That Melta Rifle is an Assault Weapon, meaning they can advance + shoot. 5" move plus 3.5" advance + 1" Guilliman + It's always Tactical In Eradicataor Town (Multiple Warlord Trait/Strat Shenanigans) is pretty good. Supposedly there's some way to Deep Strike them, but I never found it.
If you can't find a way to deepstrike them you obviously never read the 9th edition rules, aka you are willfully obtuse. Which is what I expect out of you at this point, but even without it they are way to good for their point cost.
That was my original question. They're good. They're not as good as most of the people whining about them are making them out to be. That Melta Rifle is an Assault Weapon, meaning they can advance + shoot. 5" move plus 3.5" advance + 1" Guilliman + It's always Tactical In Eradicataor Town (Multiple Warlord Trait/Strat Shenanigans) is pretty good. Supposedly there's some way to Deep Strike them, but I never found it.
Maybe try reading the ninth edition rulebook before making posts on the game state my man.
Eldar- 4436 pts
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
.
