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 Daedalus81 wrote:


No. They do not get 36 shots. That is the maximum. They would kill 8 or 64 points.

You also mentioned the MANZ melee, but you didn't do the math.

12 * .5 * .833 = 5 wounds through armor -- equates to two Aggressors and 1 with a single wound left. 2.66 Aggressors is 120 points.
Those Aggressors likewise do -- 13 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 2.9 wounds through armor. At D2 that is a 1.66 MANZ or 66 points.

136 kills 120
135 kills 66

ORKS OP

I can see why people call you disingenuous. All damage was shown against Ork boyz, but for some reason you decided to swap them over to attacking each other because? it made your example better?

As far as shooting. Since, as explained, we are shooting ork boyz, they have to be in mobz of at least 10 and usually are seen in 30, the general consensus is that they would be shooting at Hordes So yeah,12 shots is the norm in that situation, if you want to be pedantic and play the "well maybe they are a minimum size mob" they go down to 9.5 shots per model on average Even at that average its still 9.5 shots, 6 hits 3 wounds and 2.5 dead Ork boyz Or 20pts Which is 44.4% return on investment against a minimum sized mob of boyz.

3 Manz get 12 attacks (Dual saw) they hit 6 times and wound 5 times against boyz thats 5 dead boyz or 40pts
3 Aggressors get 13 attacks, they hit 6.5 times and wound 5.41 times, against boyz tahts 5-6 dead boyz or 40-48pts.

Against all vehicles except T8 and all infantry T4 and below Aggressors are better on the charge thanks to the +1 attack, Against T5 and T8-10 Meganobz have the advantage thanks to S10 vs S8 for the aggressors.

So the unit is capable of killing significantly better at range than Meganobz armed with Saws, and in CC they kill more T1-4 and T6-7 than an equal value of meganobz. I would argue that while Primaris at T5 are more common than they were last edition, they are still in the minority when compared to T2-4 infantry units and as far as vehicles, you will see a lot more T6-7 than you will T8.

*SIDE NOTE: your math was wrong. 3 aggressors get 13 attacks, for 6.5 hits, against Meganobz that is 5.41 wounds against a 5+ save = 3.6 unsaved wounds for likely 2 dead Meganobz. So weaker than Meganobz return (Thanks to S10) but definitely not 2.9 unsaved wound

I apologize - I completely blew it by forgetting that Fragstorms are blast now.

I think Aggressors are awesome. People would be nuts not to use them. I'm not arguing that they're bad. I'm saying there are features to each army and unit and singling out pieces doesn't really tell us all that much.

MANZ have access to deepstrike and reroll charges where Aggressors do not. I'm not saying this makes them perfectly balanced. Orks have their tools and Marines have theirs.

 Ordana wrote:

 Samuhell wrote:
I don't mean to sound stupid (though I'm about to) but Eradicators are 40ppm yeah? you're paying for a t5 3w 3+ dude with a 24" single shot melta, that can double its shots if he and all his unit target one thing.

I'm just not understanding the hype/outrage, what makes them good? Am I missing something?

You rarely split fire melta weapons so you can easily consider them as being 2 shots.
Find me an equivalent unit that have the damage output, at similar ranges while being as durable and prove to us all how they are not broken.

Mate look I'm not going to look for a unit, I'm not a space marine player (never have been) and I'm not defending them I'm just asking for info as no one thus far has shown me how these are so game-breaking, I personally have scion command squads with plasma that relish units like this as you simply delete them.

I get they're undercosted I agree but the way people are talking these things are going to come along bend you over and use no lube and then do the same to your mother and all I'm seeing is an undercosted melta unit personally, I'm not seeing how they break the meta.

Also and I think this is a big point people aren't thinking about, this is a new edition the only 2 codices that have been made for this edition is space marine and necron everything else is old tech and whilst this sounds bad but how are they going to sell new books if your old 8th edition is perfectly suitable and ultimately completely equal, for us to see if this unit is out of whack we can only compare to other 9th ed books and we don't have enough info for that

SemperMortis wrote:

I can see why people call you disingenuous. All damage was shown against Ork boyz, but for some reason you decided to swap them over to attacking each other because? it made your example better?

Because you don't shoot lascannons at infantry. Contriving that MANZ are worse by forcing MANZ to be the same role as Aggressors creates a scenario where you can force imbalance.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

I can see why people call you disingenuous. All damage was shown against Ork boyz, but for some reason you decided to swap them over to attacking each other because? it made your example better?

Because you don't shoot lascannons at infantry. Contriving that MANZ are worse by forcing MANZ to be the same role as Aggressors creates a scenario where you can force imbalance.

Comparing elite infantry which come standard with Assault guns and Powerfists to Elite infantry which come standard with Assault guns and power klaws?

No the point was to show that Aggressors are almost or as good in CC as Meganobz, whose whole shtick is CC. At 45pts they are still amazing and as Catbarf mentioned, I would take them in a second in my lists, at a minimum they have more than twice as much dakka against all targets as my Meganobz, and they hit on 3s compared to my 5s; and in CC they are almost as good against some targets, and are better against more.

Also Meganobz can not deep strike unless you use a stratagem on them.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

I can see why people call you disingenuous. All damage was shown against Ork boyz, but for some reason you decided to swap them over to attacking each other because? it made your example better?

Because you don't shoot lascannons at infantry. Contriving that MANZ are worse by forcing MANZ to be the same role as Aggressors creates a scenario where you can force imbalance.

At 45pts they are still amazing and as Catbarf mentioned, I would take them in a second in my lists, at a minimum they have more than twice as much dakka against all targets as my Meganobz, and they hit on 3s compared to my 5s; and in CC they are almost as good against some targets, and are better against more.

Also Meganobz can not deep strike unless you use a stratagem on them.

Sure, I agree for the most part. I think people who say Aggressors are garbage now are nuts. MANZ teleporting is an 'out of bounds' scenario, which is why I dislike mathhammer as a means to judge viability.

I have now changed my mind on eradicators. Mostly because I play Deathwatch, which have been completely gutted and had all their unique abilities squatted.

However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Niiru wrote:
However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Come again?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Come again?

The newly revealed Gravis based kill team can take up to 5 Eradicators each. And they're troops, so are not restricted by the rule of 3.

Yes, it's as fething idiotic as it sounds.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Come again?

Watch Master
Captain
10 Indomitor Team (5x heavy intercessor, 5x eradicator)
10 Indomitor Team
10 Indomitor Team
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
Apothecary
Apothecary

...is the current meme list. 15 of those eradicators have obsec, for what little that might be worth.

It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

I mean sure. But... what are they going to do, remove the only thing they've actually given to Deathwatch?

They've literally removed every other unique trait and weapon they had before. All they have left is the kill teams. If they remove the only killteam that's halfway viable, they might as well just legend the entire chapter and be done with it.

I really want to see a tournament pic of Eradicator armies lined up across from each other like a 17th century battle, with melta half range being the equivalent of attaching bayonets.

Speaking of which, how do Eradicators stack up against each other? First unit to fire wins?

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

I mean sure. But... what are they going to do, remove the only thing they've actually given to Deathwatch?

They've literally removed every other unique trait and weapon they had before. All they have left is the kill teams. If they remove the only killteam that's halfway viable, they might as well just legend the entire chapter and be done with it.

Wait and see cuz...

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

I mean sure. But... what are they going to do, remove the only thing they've actually given to Deathwatch?

They've literally removed every other unique trait and weapon they had before. All they have left is the kill teams. If they remove the only killteam that's halfway viable, they might as well just legend the entire chapter and be done with it.

a good nerf for eradicators would be to clarify that
"one target" means a SINGLE target, not a unit. which would drasticly reduce firepower against infantry squads.

BrianDavion wrote:

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

I mean sure. But... what are they going to do, remove the only thing they've actually given to Deathwatch?

They've literally removed every other unique trait and weapon they had before. All they have left is the kill teams. If they remove the only killteam that's halfway viable, they might as well just legend the entire chapter and be done with it.

a good nerf for eradicators would be to clarify that
"one target" means a SINGLE target, not a unit. which would drasticly reduce firepower against infantry squads.

Once they've sold enough Eradicators, and Marine players have won enough free games on their backs to feel like they're the chosen ones, sure.

Niiru wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Come again?

Watch Master
Captain
10 Indomitor Team (5x heavy intercessor, 5x eradicator)
10 Indomitor Team
10 Indomitor Team
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
Apothecary
Apothecary

...is the current meme list. 15 of those eradicators have obsec, for what little that might be worth.

Yea...so GW better have a big ol' points increase for Eradicators soon. That gak won't fly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Come again?

Watch Master
Captain
10 Indomitor Team (5x heavy intercessor, 5x eradicator)
10 Indomitor Team
10 Indomitor Team
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
Apothecary
Apothecary

...is the current meme list. 15 of those eradicators have obsec, for what little that might be worth.

Yea...so GW better have a big ol' points increase for Eradicators soon. That gak won't fly.

You really think so.. ?

They wrote the IH supplament.. Just saying..

BrianDavion wrote:

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

I mean sure. But... what are they going to do, remove the only thing they've actually given to Deathwatch?

They've literally removed every other unique trait and weapon they had before. All they have left is the kill teams. If they remove the only killteam that's halfway viable, they might as well just legend the entire chapter and be done with it.

a good nerf for eradicators would be to clarify that
"one target" means a SINGLE target, not a unit. which would drasticly reduce firepower against infantry squads.

That's a useless nerf that does absolutely nothing to impact it's intended role which it is currently way overperforming at, to the point of completely warping the meta.

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that GW's got a bit of time to correct that before heavy intercessors come out

Correct what, the Codices? Those are printed. They can't change them.

All they can do is errata them at this stage.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Come again?

Watch Master
Captain
10 Indomitor Team (5x heavy intercessor, 5x eradicator)
10 Indomitor Team
10 Indomitor Team
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
Apothecary
Apothecary

...is the current meme list. 15 of those eradicators have obsec, for what little that might be worth.

Yea...so GW better have a big ol' points increase for Eradicators soon. That gak won't fly.

I mean.. it only matters if someone takes Deathwatch to a tournament. Which currently isn't going to happen. Even this meme list, which is the best DW can now do, is horrifically weak.

It's disappointing that this has to be clarified, but that's obviously a meme list even in any chapter as he said, not intended to be a good list lol. Eradicators are massively overtuned but you don't dedicate almost your entire army to a single role just because you do it well. And then you're also playing Deathwatch instead of a good chapter. There's real problems with Eradicators but a 30 strong Deathwatch force of them isn't one of them. In fact its kinda cute lol they are here to exterminate

I would find that hilarious to watch those 30 eradicators try to kill things with quantum shielding in closer(ish) combat.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I would find that hilarious to watch those 30 eradicators try to kill things with quantum shielding in closer(ish) combat.

You know Quantum Shielding is now just a 5++ and Transhuman Physiology, right?

Meaning that they've got, against a S8 weapon, the same defensive profile as a Knight who didn't Rotate Ion Shields.

Quantum shielding got changed, now it's just an 5++ and transhuman physiology for our vehicles.

Gone are the days of a scaling fnp.

Oh I see - they stripped out SIA so none of that for HI.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh I see - they stripped out SIA so none of that for HI.

I assume HI in this context is Heavy Intercessors?

Personally I wasn't expecting that anyway, as heavy bolters never had SIA.

But twin-bolters on bikes used to get it, as did storm bolters for terminators. But they don't any more. Basically there's no guns left that get it, except the bog-standard bolter profile (which is mostly useless even with SIA).

Primaris Intercessor rifles used to get it as well, but the don't anymore, so no primaris units get SIA at all. Losing it on storm bolters would have been ....vaguely acceptable, if primaris had kept it at least.

As it is, SIA is dead. It will basically never come up again in any serious game, in its current state.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Points would do it, but it would have to be a big hit. They need to be 60 PPM minimum with their current rules. That would make a six man squad 360 points, a unit that can kill a 360 point tank in a single round of shooting should at least be as expensive as the tank. But if we're doing rules, I'd say losing double tap would do it, but maybe be too much.

The problem is gw always makes things worse by adding more rules. When I first saw the stats for the heavy meltas I thought "Holy crap!", then I realized that since they were heavy weapons they would always be hitting on 4s if they moved. Then I saw the strategem that makes any infantry unit that moved count as standing still.

At 60 points they’re almost the same as a MM speeder with three times the movement, ignoring Heavy, and T5 6W 3+.

Without knowing exactly which strat you’re talking about, the one I THINK you’re talking about they can’t advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
3 Aggressors get 36 shots against horde for 24 hits and 12 wounds. Against boyz thats 10 dead Boyz. 135pts kills 80. That is pretty damn good, if its in tactical turn its 96.

In CC Those 3 aggressors get 13 attacks on the charge at S8 AP-3 Flat 2 dmg. hitting on 4s.

3 Meganobz get 12 shots, for 4 hits and 2 wounds against Ork boyz for 1.68ish dead boyz.

In CC those 3 meganobz get 9 attacks at S10 -3AP D3 dmg hitting on 4s. if you want to get rid of their shooting entirely and give them a a pair of Saws each they go up to 12 attacks.

So the Space Marines go to anti-horde unit is as good as my Ork Elite melee unit.

bAlaNcEd

The problem there isn’t the Aggressors, the problem is your Orks and melee in general. They screwed melee over, and are still trying to figure out how to fix it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
However they -can- now take a completely legal 30 eradicators in 2000 points.

Come again?

Watch Master
Captain
10 Indomitor Team (5x heavy intercessor, 5x eradicator)
10 Indomitor Team
10 Indomitor Team
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
5 Eradicators
Apothecary
Apothecary

...is the current meme list. 15 of those eradicators have obsec, for what little that might be worth.

Yea...so GW better have a big ol' points increase for Eradicators soon. That gak won't fly.

i gotta ask, did you expect, something better out of GW?
Because the fact that GW feths up such rules makes such units even more of an issue then they were allready...
And "that gak will fly" until GW deems it necessary to release a CA

Not Online!!! wrote:


i gotta ask, did you expect, something better out of GW?
Because the fact that GW feths up such rules makes such units even more of an issue then they were allready...
And "that gak will fly" until GW deems it necessary to release a CA

I don't know if they fethed it up. Some people seem to think it's a meme list. With so few bodies and no SIA it isn't flexible and it's also slow. DA terminators seem scary, too, but then its 43/47 ppm for a 5 man. A couple of those plus support gets to half the army pretty fast.

I know that these are individually strong things, but that's not the whole picture. Once I spend more time digesting Necrons I might feel differently.