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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Dudeface wrote:
Breton wrote:
Dudeface wrote:


I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.

You mean like Marines too?

The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.

Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.

I'm not sure what you mean?


I feel we're wanting the same thing but wording it at cross purposes. Banshees as an example need to be better at killing marines now with wounds going up, but they shouldn't do it via outnumbering them. They should be per head as if not more deadly than a marine in their chosen form of combat.

The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.


Give Howling Banshees swords that give +1 str -3 AP, and an extra attack. (so 3 for the basic unit, 4 for the exaurch) then you're looking at a 5 man squad that has 18 attacks, this would enable them to hurt marines, and allow them to blender 1 wound models.

I'd rather with units like banshees see them get more attacks rather then hand D2 out like candy

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

BrianDavion wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Breton wrote:
Dudeface wrote:


I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.

You mean like Marines too?

The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.

Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.

I'm not sure what you mean?


I feel we're wanting the same thing but wording it at cross purposes. Banshees as an example need to be better at killing marines now with wounds going up, but they shouldn't do it via outnumbering them. They should be per head as if not more deadly than a marine in their chosen form of combat.

The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.


Give Howling Banshees swords that give +1 str -3 AP, and an extra attack. (so 3 for the basic unit, 4 for the exaurch) then you're looking at a 5 man squad that has 18 attacks, this would enable them to hurt marines, and allow them to blender 1 wound models.

I'd rather with units like banshees see them get more attacks rather then hand D2 out like candy


Even with that change, they'd be nowhere near as effective as you seem to think.

Let alone for a fragile melee unit.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I'd rather with units like banshees see them get more attacks rather then hand D2 out like candy


Its definitely something that needs to be considered very carefully. Not handed out to every new troops unit. I think more attacks is probably the way to go with Banshees. Maybe two weapon choices. One that is Str +1 AP-2 D2 two handed, One that is their default sword AP-3 D1 +1ATT with this weapon if you fight, can take a second one. So paired blades could get them to 4att but at the cost of more points.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Sentineil wrote:
Looks like the usual whining is on queue.

*Complains about only marine releases*

*Ignores Necron codex and huge model release*

Seems standard enough.

Space Marines Only Get 1.5 As Much As Every Other Faction Combined, Find Out Why This Is Fine!
 bullyboy wrote:
so lets get the marine boner out of the way so that when we are finally back to some form of normalcy, the only codexes in the pipeline will be non marine (except the chaos variety of course).

What makes you think this will happen when C:SM v8.5 did bring nothing of the sort, instead heralded EVEN MOAR marines?
Dudeface wrote:
After the dark angels supplement, what is there left to release?

A new codex with the Light Intercessor, the Heavy Land Stormer, the EagleThunderer, the Assault Destructioneer, and the Captain in Gravis Armor On Bike With Jetpacks.

Totto wrote:
I just had to check this, whilst also going back a bit in time:

Miniatures released so far during 6th, 7th, 8th Ed (so since June 2012)

Space Marines: 170 +16 so far in 9th
Chaos Space Marines: 67
Chaos Demons: 42
Genestealer Cult:34
Orks:30
Necron:7 + 15 so far in 9th
Adeptus Mechanicus:21
Eldar:20
Tau:20
Tyranids:18
Astra Militarum:18
Chaos Knights/Imperial Knights:10
Adeptus Custodes:8
Harlequins:8
Drukhari:7
Grey Knights:1
Adepta Sororitas:?

Impressive!

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Jidmah wrote:
At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.


The thing is, even if that happened, I'm not even sure what they could do for the faction. It seems that SMs have cannibalised so much design space - including many of the traits that were once unique to other factions - that there seems to be little room for expansion.

I mean, where do you even start? SMs have vehicles that exceed Raiders and Ravagers in speed, so you'd be looking at bumping those up to 18+" just to keep them even a tiny bit ahead. And pretty soon you're just going to run out of board to move to.

Similarly, how do you go about creating a glass-cannon army in the era of Primaris mega-weapons. DE already had problems with all their poison weapons and most of their melee weapons hitting like wet-noodles, and that was before the drastic Marine buffs and escalation from mid-8th onwards. If they're still supposed to be glass cannons, it seems like every Kabalite will soon have to be walking around with a handheld Disintegrator just to break even. Completely ridiculous, I know, but this seems to be the direction we're headed (especially if said Kabalites are to get no buff to their durability). Otherwise, you won't have an army of glass-cannons but simply an army of cannon-fodder.

And then there's the issue of durability. Unless their damage output is pushed to ridiculous levels, it seems that DE will need to get at least a bit tougher to compete with Marines. But then how do you go about it? +1W seems very un-fluffy. -1 to hit is possible, but then this causes problems due to the caps on such and also because it eats into the design space of Mandrakes and Venoms. Maybe a 5++ for all models to represent their reflexes? But now we're eating into the design space of both vehicles and Coven models.

And bear in mind that this is just for the models that already exist. I dread to think how you find niches for new units at this point.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





Tyel wrote:
D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.


Then we're left with Striking Scorpions having their role usurped and the cycle repeats!
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Dudeface wrote:


The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.


I'd go the other way. Start with 2W.

Jidmah wrote:I didn't lose a word about efficiency. It's obvious that such units should neither be OP nor trash and costed appropriately to their abilities.
You'd think so, but I'm taking less and less for granted lately - and that wasn't pointed at you, but others.

From a fluff perspective, I expect that a single banshee should kill an intercessor with no problem,

And vice versa. It just depends on what page you learn the Intercessor or the Banshee's name on. Everyone who's read Black Library can probably describe a book where one Banshee/DG/whatever laid waste to 9 Marines before getting killed by the 10th one because he's a recurring character.

which means dealing an average of two damage to a T4/3+ stat line per banshee.
Six banshees clobbering a single marine to death is what orks would do, but does not feel appropriate for a super-agile super-specialized warrior that has been honing their skills for an insane amount of time.


Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.

Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?

The basic Primaris Captain with the Bolt Rifle and power sword has 6A/5A after, 5/4.2 hits, 2.5/2.1 wounds 2.1/1.764 damage with a D1 Power Sword. Double that for a D2 Master Crafted.

Edited to correct was to wasnt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 10:23:29


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
That's the problem with the arms race GW started with Marines.
If you bring all marines to 2 wounds you need elite killers to take down 2w models. And if you do it through adding more attacks you don't get an elite killer, you get a 'blender everything' unit.

Custodes could get 3w each because they are 50 point models, there will never be many of them. By making the entire space marine roster sub 20 point 2w models you end up having to pass out D2 weapons like candy. The alternative is that all armies without 2W basic models get obliterated in a hail of attacks.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Tyel wrote:
D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.


This was my view, plus scorpions are the chaff clearers historically.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
Tyel wrote:
D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
That's the problem with the arms race GW started with Marines.
If you bring all marines to 2 wounds you need elite killers to take down 2w models. And if you do it through adding more attacks you don't get an elite killer, you get a 'blender everything' unit.

Custodes could get 3w each because they are 50 point models, there will never be many of them. By making the entire space marine roster sub 20 point 2w models you end up having to pass out D2 weapons like candy. The alternative is that all armies without 2W basic models get obliterated in a hail of attacks.

The best way to kill T4 2W 3+Sv is S5+, Ap-2/3, D2/3, what is currently blending it's way through vehicals.
Made even worse by handing out T5 3W troops at apparently under 30ppm.

That makes you need a gack load of S6+ D3+ shooting with AP-2 or better to kill troops, Vehicals just took a massive hit in durability.
I really am starting to think GW doesn't see how broken they're wounding chart is.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Ice_can wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Tyel wrote:
D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
That's the problem with the arms race GW started with Marines.
If you bring all marines to 2 wounds you need elite killers to take down 2w models. And if you do it through adding more attacks you don't get an elite killer, you get a 'blender everything' unit.

Custodes could get 3w each because they are 50 point models, there will never be many of them. By making the entire space marine roster sub 20 point 2w models you end up having to pass out D2 weapons like candy. The alternative is that all armies without 2W basic models get obliterated in a hail of attacks.

The best way to kill T4 2W 3+Sv is S5+, Ap-2/3, D2/3, what is currently blending it's way through vehicals.
Made even worse by handing out T5 3W troops at apparently under 30ppm.

That makes you need a gack load of S6+ D3+ shooting with AP-2 or better to kill troops, Vehicals just took a massive hit in durability.
I really am starting to think GW doesn't see how broken they're wounding chart is.


All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





UK

Not sure if this has been asked already, but how is the current UM supplement going to be compatible with the new codex when Tyrannic War Veterans only have 1 wound? Will they release an updated datasheet?

[1,800] Chaos Knights | [1,250] Thousand Sons | [1,000] Grey Knights | 40K editions: RT, 8, 9, 10 | https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/  
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Brother Castor wrote:
Not sure if this has been asked already, but how is the current UM supplement going to be compatible with the new codex when Tyrannic War Veterans only have 1 wound? Will they release an updated datasheet?

FAQ I'd guess.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:

All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.


Except who needs to bother trying to shoot grots?
Also no one is paying 30 points for S6, ap-2 D3 shooting atleast not without volume and frabkly if I've killed all the buggies and Bombers I'll quiet happly shoot the grots with lascannons if they are the only thing left alive.

You also managed to massively not address how that new marine stats made vehicals straight up worse in 9th edition now, especially combined with the fact that to counter marinesS5+ D2+weapons are having to be handed out like candy.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Breton wrote:
And vice versa. It just depends on what page you learn the Intercessor or the Banshee's name on. Everyone who's read Black Library can probably describe a book where one Banshee/DG/whatever laid waste to 9 Marines before getting killed by the 10th one because he's a recurring character.

There is no BL book where dozens of banshees repeatedly successfully hit a squad of marines and they barely lose any members.
A single blow from a banshee that connects should kill a marine. Marines getting to shoot banshees or ambush them should murder them. That is how they work in the fluff, that's how they should play on the battlefield.

Breton wrote:
Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.

According to the math in your last post, you need six banshees to kill a marine before it strikes back. I didn't check it, but I do hope you do believe in your own math.

Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?

One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Ice_can wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.


Except who needs to bother trying to shoot grots?
Also no one is paying 30 points for S6, ap-2 D3 shooting atleast not without volume and frabkly if I've killed all the buggies and Bombers I'll quiet happly shoot the grots with lascannons if they are the only thing left alive.

You also managed to massively not address how that new marine stats made vehicals straight up worse in 9th edition now, especially combined with the fact that to counter marinesS5+ D2+weapons are having to be handed out like candy.


You mean people weren't spamming those to begin with? But I can't stress enough marines are not the only army in the game. If you build solely to play against marines, other armies will hand you your ass.

And I don't need to address an obvious point. There is more damage on the field, mainly wound targets are of reduced value and single wound increased value.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





marines might not be the only faction in the game, vice versa i have seen a drastic decrease in non marine playerbase,...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




so yeah we saw more Marine stuff, but the necrons stuff is all brand new never before seen things, so I'd say that balances out. IMHO both armies had some neat stuff previewed.


We've never seen Flayed Ones before? This is the third time they've done that kit. It's a useless unit entry and probably needs to be retired and, in this case, took up space it didn't need to take. Admittedly the finecast Flayed Ones are pretty ridiculous, but the entire unit is a bit silly. They don't fit the new Necron fluff at all imo.

....... did they cancell the necron codex release? people act like the only thing 9th edition has had thus far is power armor releases.


I get that you're tired of the Marine hate, but some of your posts are feeling pretty disingenuous. Marines have had a constant stream of releases since 8th launched. Constant. They've had the design space essentially gifted to them (show me a rule marines can't ignore and I'll show you a rule that hasn't actually been written yet), and have had models cranked out on what feels like an almost weekly schedule. You act like the players being upset that Marines are getting so much of the release schedule are somehow being unfair. You pointed out that xenos are in Indomitus - well, there HAD to be a bad guy in the box. lol Yeah, 'crons have gotten some stuff. Considering they've been essentially ignored since 5th while marines have had a steady stream of releases, it was about time. Looking at what they're getting though - yeah. So far it's not very good is it? I mean hopefully the codex fixes some of this, but the rules we've seen to this point are not great. Meanwhile, every single marine release has strong utility. Heavy Intercessors anyone?

"Good news Chaos players! Your CSM will get 2 wounds! Just in time marines to get TROOPS with D2 weapons!" I said this weeks ago but giving CSM 2 wounds would likely end up making them WORSE as it would make an already over-costed unit even more expensive, and since they don't have any way to leverage the additional wound (damage reduction, DR, Transhuman Physiology etc), it will be essentially meaningless. And what do you know? Right on the heels of that announcement, we get Gravis troops with D2 guns. But hey, at least Necrons got Flayed Ones. Again. Yay?

Back in the Spring, when we were talking about the codex release schedule I said the first or second book would be Marines. Literally everyone laughed at me. "There's no way GW would do that! It would cause such a gakstorm" of salt!". Well - here we are. Mind you I'm usually the one defending marine releases. They make money and GW is a business after all so having more marine releases on average is pretty understandable and never really bothered me, but even I am to the point where I've got the marine fatigue. I actually shelved my marines a year ago because it was getting silly back then. Your posts read like you can't possibly understand why people find this frustrating. I'm a marine player and I find it frustrating. "Has your faction just gotten a new cool rule? Stay tuned for next week when the new Primaris show up to nullify it!" It really is just silly at this point.

I've even said that they had to do this many releases to revamp the line, but if you think about, even that is wrong. When they revamp any other line, it's a month or two of releases and then on to the next. Marines have now had solid releases for an exceptionally long time. The fatigue is real.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 13:06:20


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Not sure if this has been asked already, but how is the current UM supplement going to be compatible with the new codex when Tyrannic War Veterans only have 1 wound? Will they release an updated datasheet?

FAQ I'd guess.

Probably. Let's just hope they do the same for csm, otherwise we'll be waiting for our new codex in order to play catchup again.

Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.

Ice_can wrote:I really am starting to think GW doesn't see how broken they're wounding chart is.

Really? Just now?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Tycho wrote:
(show me a rule marines can't ignore and I'll show you a rule that hasn't actually been written yet)


The restriction on non-TITANIC models being able to Fall Back and cast psychic powers springs to mind as a possibility.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




The restriction on non-TITANIC models being able to Fall Back and cast psychic powers springs to mind as a possibility.


Hasn't been published yet, but since Ultras already ignore this rule for the purposes of shooting, my guess is they get a strat that allows it for their psykers as well.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.


S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.


S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.


Seems fair.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Dudeface wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.


S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.


Seems fair.


s3 might be an issue if the ammount of attacks is too low but it would indeed be the best possible solution to that conundrum..

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.


S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.

You'd need it against T4. Maybe make their weapons +1 to strength as well?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Ah, ok, makes sense.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Jidmah wrote:


Breton wrote:
Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.

According to the math in your last post, you need six banshees to kill a marine before it strikes back. I didn't check it, but I do hope you do believe in your own math.
According to the math in the post 10 kill 2 on the first round. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.9 after saves. The marines kill just over 4 in return then start losing badly. A primaris captain with a power sword doesn't kill a primaris marine a turn. One of the problems you're assigning to Shining Spears is a problem with close combat in and of itself. GW ripped the guts out of Close Combat in 8th. No +1A for Charging, no +1A for two CCW's (or pistol and CCW). They're figuring out they screwed up but they aren't fixing it yet. A few test balloons so far, but nothing game wide. They gave basic melee a +1A - choppas, talons, chainswords, etc. - but the pistol/power sword etc folks are still screwed. Not being able to chase and destroy falling back units hurts too. Unless it's a huge mob, most of the single turn combats are gone. The strong weapons don't have enough attacks, the ones that get extra attacks aren't strong enough until quantity has a quality all it's own.




Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?

One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.


Not until they fix close combat itself first. If a hundred point Captain doesn't necessarily do that, Banshees who do could be in the 70-80 point range. I don't know maybe they like it this way, maybe they don't want single turn fights. Maybe that's the new normal and they probably should have told us.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 13:46:55


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.


Except who needs to bother trying to shoot grots?
Also no one is paying 30 points for S6, ap-2 D3 shooting atleast not without volume and frabkly if I've killed all the buggies and Bombers I'll quiet happly shoot the grots with lascannons if they are the only thing left alive.

You also managed to massively not address how that new marine stats made vehicals straight up worse in 9th edition now, especially combined with the fact that to counter marinesS5+ D2+weapons are having to be handed out like candy.


You mean people weren't spamming those to begin with? But I can't stress enough marines are not the only army in the game. If you build solely to play against marines, other armies will hand you your ass.

And I don't need to address an obvious point. There is more damage on the field, mainly wound targets are of reduced value and single wound increased value.

Realy what other armies are handing you your ass?
So far in 9th it play marines or GTF.
I've seen plenty of Non loyalist marine player either give up or start marines.

So which army is going to hand you your arse as you keep claiming if you build to counter marine's.
Heck build to counter marines and deal with the downsides vrs other opponents is exactly what some of the biggest names in competitive 40k are advising non marine players do to have a chance of not getting ROFL stomped.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 13:59:26


 
   
 
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