Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.

The Klaive thing bugs me though...

Klaives might be changed when the codex comes out.

The issue is how long it takes. When I asked how to handle dark eldar in 9th some people basically showed you pretty much have to rely on the dark technomancers army trait for damage, covens are needed to hurt things in melee, wych cult is mostly trash, disintegrators are basically needed and in general you're probably better off scoring objectives in 9th rather than going for killing the enemy army.

Just to show you all how bad things have gotten heavy intercessors basically have our disintegrator profile with greater range and their new hover vehicle is as fast as a venom when both aren't boosted. For reference venoms are a light transport and dark eldars fastest vehicle and currently nobody really takes it because it sucks now. It's absolutely absurd space marines are that fast and take one of our best weapons with better range and they take it on a t5 with 3 wounds model and 10 man unit.

GW your army faction favoritism is so blatant it's obscene. Not to mention the next 4 codexes are all marines (3 loyalist, 1 chaos). Wtf give dark eldar and eldar something. We were the first psychic awakening book for God's sake. Just give us something....and no a new model for lelith with zero new wargear and completely unchanged points doesn't count.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.

The Klaive thing bugs me though...

Klaives might be changed when the codex comes out.

The issue is how long it takes. When I asked how to handle dark eldar in 9th some people basically showed you pretty much have to rely on the dark technomancers army trait for damage, covens are needed to hurt things in melee, wych cult is mostly trash, disintegrators are basically needed and in general you're probably better off scoring objectives in 9th rather than going for killing the enemy army.

Just to show you all how bad things have gotten heavy intercessors basically have our disintegrator profile with greater range and their new hover vehicle is as fast as a venom when both aren't boosted. For reference venoms are a light transport and dark eldars fastest vehicle and currently nobody really takes it because it sucks now. It's absolutely absurd space marines are that fast and take one of our best weapons with better range and they take it on a t5 with 3 wounds model and 10 man unit.

GW your army faction favoritism is so blatant it's obscene. Not to mention the next 4 codexes are all marines (3 loyalist, 1 chaos). Wtf give dark eldar and eldar something. We were the first psychic awakening book for God's sake. Just give us something....and no a new model for lelith with zero new wargear and completely unchanged points doesn't count.

"Just give us something, the psychic awakening book doesn't count, the new models alongside it don't count and new models of existing characters don't count"

Voss wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...

Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.

Yeah such a win D6 auto hitting S4 Ap0 1D attacks vrs what is 90% odf the time going to be T4 2W 3+Sv models.

3.5 hits 1.75 wounds =.58 of a wound per flamer.
For just 15 points more than 3 eradicators you can do avarage of 5.25 wounds to a marine statline 47.25 points of old school or 52.5 points of intercessors. Aslong as you can see them, Ofcourse wouldn't want them to be too OP.

I'm not in a hurry as long as our Codex is properly and internally balanced. I'm having fun even with our current and broken one...

But yeah they could give us a hit of what is coming, I'm pretty sure they already know where are they going with big factions like Aeldari. A day without Primaris news wouldn't kill... SM players have enough to think for some months.

Ice_can wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...

Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.

Yeah such a win D6 auto hitting S4 Ap0 1D attacks vrs what is 90% odf the time going to be T4 2W 3+Sv models.

3.5 hits 1.75 wounds =.58 of a wound per flamer.
For just 15 points more than 3 eradicators you can do avarage of 5.25 wounds to a marine statline 47.25 points of old school or 52.5 points of intercessors. Aslong as you can see them, Ofcourse wouldn't want them to be too OP.

GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...

Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.

Yeah such a win D6 auto hitting S4 Ap0 1D attacks vrs what is 90% odf the time going to be T4 2W 3+Sv models.

3.5 hits 1.75 wounds =.58 of a wound per flamer.
For just 15 points more than 3 eradicators you can do avarage of 5.25 wounds to a marine statline 47.25 points of old school or 52.5 points of intercessors. Aslong as you can see them, Ofcourse wouldn't want them to be too OP.

GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.

They might have more of a point if it felt like anyone who doesn't play marines actually had a chance in 9th edition.

Voss wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Well, WHC just confirmed that Banshees will get the new power sword profile - +1S, -3AP, D1 - at the same time the SM 'dex drops.

Pretty sure we knew that already. The initial announcement said all same-name stuff would change. The downside is things like fusion guns don't get an free update.

Holy carp on the hand flamer though. That stands out, especially when compared to the poor inferno pistol (though at point blank range, that just obliterates people).

They originally said Imperial units would get the boosts if same name - now confirmed all with same name which is at least something

GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.

Classic BrianDavion.

Everyone - Marines are fine. Quit picking on them.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
What about "basically the same abilities but Xenos"? We have to wait for our codex? Thinking about Heat Lances and Liquifiers.

And... is a Klaive now exactly the same as a Power Sword? Doesn't feel right. At least it's a huge buff for my Hekatrixes, Sybarites, Arena Champions... and Beastmasters!!!

Edit: And Helliarchs!!! God I keep forgetting my good stuff

Given that not a single xenos unit they listed had a "slightly differently named" thing, I'm guessing even direct identical analogues like Power Klaws, Killsaws, Fusion Guns etc will not be receiving the buffs until their codexes.

I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. but I'm betting it's only identically named stuff.

it will be, one of the major reasons to have identically stat-ed but different named weapons in different lists is so you can indevidually adjust the relative power of each in the name of "balance" ie, you can boost one faction's "Holy Power Swords" to increase their effectiveness, while leaving another's "Infernal Power Swords "alone, or visa versa.

incidentally, this is likely part of the logic of the 30+ "bolt" weapons, as now GW can play with the power and cost of each gun on each unit, so that they can, for example, make one troop choice better or cheaper without disrupting the balance of another type of troop.

Tycho wrote:

GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.

Classic BrianDavion.

Everyone - Marines are fine. Quit picking on them.

not what I said princess, try to work on that reading comprenhension. My point is that this is a game with 20 armies, some of which aren't Marines. and not every weapon is going to an AP -3 S4 D2 marine killers, doesn't mean they don't have a place.

BrianDavion wrote:

Tycho wrote:

GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.

Classic BrianDavion.

Everyone - Marines are fine. Quit picking on them.

not what I said princess, try to work on that reading comprenhension. My point is that this is a game with 20 armies, some of which aren't Marines. and not every weapon is going to an AP -3 S4 D2 marine killers, doesn't mean they don't have a place.

Is this a game with 20+ armies though? Is it really?
Like all 20 are somehow comparable ? Yeah...

How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?

SemperMortis wrote:
How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?

How are we counting? Do BA, SW and DA still count as different armies? If so I count 10

UM
BA
DA
SW
Deathwatch
Custodes
Grey Knights
CSM
Death Guard
Thousand Sons

SemperMortis wrote:
How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?

Now it was specified as "marines" aka 1/2w t4 3+, so following that:

Now we have:
Chaos marines
Thousand sons
Space marines
Grey knights

Almost marines:
Sisters
Death guard

Anything else is a supplement.

Not marines:
Tau
Eldar
Dark eldar
Guard
Admech
Gsc
Nids
Orks
Crons
Knights
Chaos knights
Daemons
Harlequins
Custodes

Dont think I've missed any?

When you look at a list like that it's even more insane when you think about how little attention most of those armies get compared to the whole of all releases.

the_scotsman wrote:

Where am I missing that the intercessors start "losing quite badly?" or that the combat "Takes a long time"? I'm looking at this and by the time the Eldar player's next turn rolls around, just the exarch is left fighting 7 space marines. They in fact never get to four dead marines.

I was skipping the shooting as I was talking about close combat. Because my point was that Banshees didn't specifically take a hit, fighting in general did. And needing 2+ player turns when someone is saying 110 points of banshees should plow through 200 points of intercessors in one player turn is a while. Even 110 points of Banshees doesn't go through 100 points of Intercessors in one player turn. The days of charge, assault, wipe out, consolidate into a new unit are, at least for now with most units, gone.

8 VV with BP PS vs 10 Intercessors 25 attacks, 16.8 hits 8.37 wounds 7.2 damage.

25 basic choppa boys 76 attacks 50.9 hits, 25.5 wounds, 8.5 damage

40 Hormagaunts 80 attacks 43..3 hits (40 hits plus half of 16% of 40 misses) 14 wounds, 4.7 damage

Raptors are in the same boat as Assault Marines, I'm not going to bother.

A knight's feet will get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 xD3 damage.

Interceptors will do slightly worse at S4 -3 vs S8 -2 but similar to knights.

6 Terminators with Lightnig Claws 25 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds + 4 Wounds is 12 wounds, 8 damage (have Shock Assault and two weapon bonus built in the claws to still have the same attacks as Pre-8th plus reroll wounds)

5 TH/SS Terminators 16 Attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 7 x 3 Damage

10 Assault Intercessors (Maybe its just the old stuff) 41 attacks 27 hits, 13 wounds, 6.5 damage (Shock Assault and the new Chainsword with -1AS and +1A)

I think there's still a Demon unit that will ginsu every turn, but I don't know their armies well enough Bloodcrushers maybe? - and I'm getting tired of doing the math. Plus it doesn't matter, if they ginsu they're the exception proving the rule, if they don't they're just more evidence that the Fight phase took a serious across the board hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
When you look at a list like that it's even more insane when you think about how little attention most of those armies get compared to the whole of all releases.

I look at that list and see a lot of armies that should have been subfactions.

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?

How are we counting? Do BA, SW and DA still count as different armies? If so I count 10

UM
BA
DA
SW
Deathwatch
Custodes
Grey Knights
CSM
Death Guard
Thousand Sons

I counted by codex, so DA, BA SWs and DW are now all under codex space marines.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?

How are we counting? Do BA, SW and DA still count as different armies? If so I count 10

UM
BA
DA
SW
Deathwatch
Custodes
Grey Knights
CSM
Death Guard
Thousand Sons

I counted by codex, so DA, BA SWs and DW are now all under codex space marines.

Counting by GW's webpage, there are

13 Space Marines,
8 Imperium,
6 Chaos
9 Xenos

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Where am I missing that the intercessors start "losing quite badly?" or that the combat "Takes a long time"? I'm looking at this and by the time the Eldar player's next turn rolls around, just the exarch is left fighting 7 space marines. They in fact never get to four dead marines.

I was skipping the shooting as I was talking about close combat. Because my point was that Banshees didn't specifically take a hit, fighting in general did. And needing 2+ player turns when someone is saying 110 points of banshees should plow through 200 points of intercessors in one player turn is a while. Even 110 points of Banshees doesn't go through 100 points of Intercessors in one player turn. The days of charge, assault, wipe out, consolidate into a new unit are, at least for now with most units, gone.

Your example relied on the marine player not shooting pistols in close combat, a thing that is free to do and which is one of the major reasons the intercessors won handily

Banshees are a suicide melee unit that returns 40% of its points value on the charge vs its preferred target. AKA, a very bad suicide unit. Just because you can come up with other gakky builds like power sword/bolt pistol vanvets does not make Banshees not gak in comparison to other close combat units, like say, their direct competition in the Eldar book, shining spears.

...yes, even with the +1S power swords.160 points of banshees equipped with the best wargear for fighting marines (the D3 damage Executioner weapon) kill 60 points of intercessors or 54 points of tacticals on the charge. Then, the marines fall back, and the banshees become T3 4+ bodies that cost 15 points, incredibly efficient to shoot with basically anything.

4 shining spears plus a star lance have a much, MUCH better time. They have the same threat range as the banshees without advancing, meaning they get to shoot on their way in causing 2.5 dead intercessors, then they kill 4 intercessors in combat.They kill nearly equal points of intercessors on the charge with average rolls, without having to not bring the defensive trait on their exarch. Then, when the surviving squad member falls back (or just, is dead, if you got lucky with rolls) the return fire has to get through 9 T4 3+sv 4++ wounds, with 3 wounds that have a 3++ save just in case you aim a plasma gun at them.

That's the range you want a suicide unit to be operating in: if you get them into their preferred target (which W2 marines most CERTAINLY are for spears) you'd like them to reliably kill about 80% of their points value, because your opponent is most likely going to be able to remove them with somewhat less than their value in points. Suicide squads are game tempo pieces, where the majority of their usefulness comes from dictating their opponent's next movement phase and taking out particularly problematic squads that threaten your army. You use your Fire Dragons to kill the tank that can hurt your vehicles if you have an armored list. You use your Eradicators to take out the flat D2 weapon vehicle. You fling your Genestealers into the aggressors that can carve up a bunch of your nid troops.

Banshees just dont function like that. They either need some mechanic to stay alive vs shooting, or they need more damage to function as a suicide troop.

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?

Now it was specified as "marines" aka 1/2w t4 3+, so following that:

Now we have:
Chaos marines
Thousand sons
Space marines
Grey knights

Almost marines:
Sisters
Death guard

Anything else is a supplement.

Not marines:
Tau
Eldar
Dark eldar
Guard
Admech
Gsc
Nids
Orks
Crons
Knights
Chaos knights
Daemons
Harlequins
Custodes

Dont think I've missed any?

Jidmah wrote:When you look at a list like that it's even more insane when you think about how little attention most of those armies get compared to the whole of all releases.

Knights - functionally complete
Chaos Knights - brand new
Sister - brand new
Death Guard - brand new
GSC - brand new
Custodes - brand new
Daemons - got all their GDs along side a partial refresh
Crons - brand new
Admech - brand new

So that leaves DE who has newer kits. T'au who has newer kits. Orks who have a ton of nice kits - what else are you going to update aside from infantry? IG whose vehicles are fine. Harlies who have new kits, but are a limited army and will likely stay a limited army. Nids who have a ton of really good kits. Grey Knights are overshadowed, but fine (but don't count, because power armor). Thousand Sons who are fairly new, but need some variety (but dont count, because power armor).

And then Eldar who are old as dirt, but have seen some light and aged far better than CSM did.

So what people are really trying to say is, "I'm jealous and *I* should be the one getting new toys and not other people. If the releases are Sisters or IG or Admech I'll label them as Imperium and attack all the Imperium releases, because *I* am still not getting toys that I want right now".

The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.

Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:

-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks

^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?

or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:

Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot

Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Knights - functionally complete
Chaos Knights - brand new
Sister - brand new
Death Guard - brand new
GSC - brand new
Custodes - brand new
Daemons - got all their GDs along side a partial refresh
Crons - brand new
Admech - brand new

So that leaves DE who has newer kits. T'au who has newer kits. Orks who have a ton of nice kits - what else are you going to update aside from infantry? IG whose vehicles are fine. Harlies who have new kits, but are a limited army and will likely stay a limited army. Nids who have a ton of really good kits. Grey Knights are overshadowed, but fine (but don't count, because power armor). Thousand Sons who are fairly new, but need some variety (but dont count, because power armor).

And then Eldar who are old as dirt, but have seen some light and aged far better than CSM did.

So what people are really trying to say is, "I'm jealous and *I* should be the one getting new toys and not other people. If the releases are Sisters or IG or Admech I'll label them as Imperium and attack all the Imperium releases, because *I* am still not getting toys that I want right now".

As opposed to Marines and their many flavors who are: Brand new and so fully complete that GW had to change the fluff in order to push out an entire new range of SM+1s. Also, its a bit...ridiculous that we are talking about release of new kits and your response was to say "Orkz who have a ton of nice kits", "Nids who have a ton of really good kits", and "Eldar who are old as dirt but have seen some light".

I'm still kit-bashing my own Tankbustas/Kommandos because the kit is old and garbage. God help you if you want new Deff Koptas or old ones and can't find any Black Reach ones on EBay.

I'm stoked for Necron players, i hope this brings them out more since I literally haven't played against one in years, but people are getting fed up with the constant SM releases when other factions are ignored even though their lines clearly need a lot more attention.

the_scotsman wrote:
The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.

Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:

-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks

^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?

or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:

Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot

Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.

Chaos marines are still packing zerkers as 2nd ed troops for WE.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.

Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:

-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks

^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?

or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:

Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot

Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.

Chaos marines are still packing zerkers as 2nd ed troops for WE.

From what I can tell on SOL, they're reasonably early 3rd edition sculpts - they don't show in the 1999 Annual (though DE do), but are present in the 2000 one.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.

Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:

-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks

^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?

or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:

Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot

Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.

Chaos marines are still packing zerkers as 2nd ed troops for WE.

That's true. people do seem to forget that gems like possessed and bezerkers still exist because CSM got a pretty solid refresh a bit ago.

Still 2nd ed/ 3rd ed trash:

-CSM Vehicles
-Defiler
-Possessed
-Bezerkers
-Many named characters
-Noise Marines
-Daemon prince (might be newer tbh I don't know about this one, but terrible looking mini)

The problem with all the armies that desperately need attention is not that there don't exist good looking kits, but that there are kits that are iconic to the faction that still look like utter trash, while again, marines were basically the most complete model range ever before the primaris pushing started.

If the primaris range was:

-Intercessors (Scaled up tacticals, with real special/heavy weapons)
-Eliminators (replacement for sniper scouts)
-Reivers (Replacement for other scouts)
-The new Landspeeder
-Outriders
-Spacemario Kart

People would not have cared. Attack bikes, scouts, bikers, land speeders? Yeah, those were the elements of the marine range that actually needed updates, that were 3rd ed or older. It's the fact that we have the 30-odd other kits that GW put out with primaris, while such iconic units as Genestealers, Possessed marines, Ork Boyz, Termagants/Hormagants, Aspect Warriors and Guardians, and Guardsmen have all sat with their thumbs up their butts because the 40k release pipeline has been clogged with light intercessors, heavy intercessors, medium intercessors, a kit for melta gun dudes, a kit for plasma gun dudes, a kit for chainsword dudes. It feels like GW decided to take the tactical squad kit and replace it with a unique SKU for every single possible fething build you could make a guy out of it.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Knights - functionally complete
Chaos Knights - brand new
Sister - brand new
Death Guard - brand new
GSC - brand new
Custodes - brand new
Daemons - got all their GDs along side a partial refresh
Crons - brand new
Admech - brand new

So that leaves DE who has newer kits. T'au who has newer kits. Orks who have a ton of nice kits - what else are you going to update aside from infantry? IG whose vehicles are fine. Harlies who have new kits, but are a limited army and will likely stay a limited army. Nids who have a ton of really good kits. Grey Knights are overshadowed, but fine (but don't count, because power armor). Thousand Sons who are fairly new, but need some variety (but dont count, because power armor).

And then Eldar who are old as dirt, but have seen some light and aged far better than CSM did.

So what people are really trying to say is, "I'm jealous and *I* should be the one getting new toys and not other people. If the releases are Sisters or IG or Admech I'll label them as Imperium and attack all the Imperium releases, because *I* am still not getting toys that I want right now".

As opposed to Marines and their many flavors who are: Brand new and so fully complete that GW had to change the fluff in order to push out an entire new range of SM+1s. Also, its a bit...ridiculous that we are talking about release of new kits and your response was to say "Orkz who have a ton of nice kits", "Nids who have a ton of really good kits", and "Eldar who are old as dirt but have seen some light".

I'm still kit-bashing my own Tankbustas/Kommandos because the kit is old and garbage. God help you if you want new Deff Koptas or old ones and can't find any Black Reach ones on EBay.

I'm stoked for Necron players, i hope this brings them out more since I literally haven't played against one in years, but people are getting fed up with the constant SM releases when other factions are ignored even though their lines clearly need a lot more attention.

I don't think there's nothing worthy for GW to make, but a lot of those armies don't need a refresh.

People just need to realize that one marine kit probably hits half the player base even before they were good. An Ork refresh probably hits 1 in 15. Which means 14 in 15 are still upset. Some new DE is helpful to a lot of pointy eared soup, but not everyone does soup.

There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.

The marine bloat is so silly that GW puts something out for Primaris, and then puts out ANOTHER thing that does the exact same job 100% better, making there be basically no point in the existence of the first thing.

Remember Reivers? Anyone going to buy those now that we have AP-1 Obsec Assault Intercessors and Infiltrators with better bolt carbines an anti-DS aura and good Infiltrate rules?

Remember the Repulsor? you know, how you could build that variant with all the las-talons? Well, he's the new tank, which doesn't pay for transport capacity, and has the shiny new multi-meltas so it does more damage for less points!

Remember the Redemptor Dreadnought? S5 guns plus dreadnought fist? Well here's the Invictor, same preferred target, same melee power, same defenses, oh by the way you get to deploy it midboard while the redemptor starts in your DZ :^)

GW didn't even bother making Suppressors a kit. It's more just a formality at this point. Marine players aren't supposed to buy the plastic kits, just buy 250$ box set and flog the not-marine half on ebay. Then buy next 250$ box set and throw out previous 250$ box set!

Don't think, just consume product and get excited for new product!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.

Rigghhht, codexes. So who's getting four of the six new codexes/supplements we'll be getting this year? Could it be the faction with the second newest codex in the game? The one that's been dominating the meta for the last year? Naahhhh, couldn't be them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.

There would be less complaining if releases, both books and models, were more evenly distributed across all factions.

I'm sure you don't meant it that way, but your post reads as if your are saying that marines deserve to get vastly more models than any other faction in the game because those factions have gotten models at any time in the past?

I'd also like to point out that your "brand new list" effectively says that it's ok for new armies to not receive any release whatsoever, rules or models, for 3 full years.

How about not updating loyalist Space Marines at all for another three years? I'm sure that most players won't run out of things to buy in the meantime.

I don't think there's nothing worthy for GW to make, but a lot of those armies don't need a refresh.

People just need to realize that one marine kit probably hits half the player base even before they were good. An Ork refresh probably hits 1 in 15. Which means 14 in 15 are still upset. Some new DE is helpful to a lot of pointy eared soup, but not everyone does soup.

There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.

While it doesn't help that the marines are plentiful AND really good, I think you'd still see complaining even if the marine releases were pants. The only difference is that, instead of "everyone else" complaining, it would be "marine players AND everyone else". One side complaining about the near constant torrent and the other side complaining that all the releases are bad.

And I would disagree on the "a lot of armies don't need a refresh" thing. SOME don't but quite a few do. My DG have been in a good place for a while in terms of releases but needed some rules updates. So yeah, you could pretty much fix them with a proper codex. Not sure we need new models. But as a Tsons player yourself, even you have to admit that range is pretty thin. Then we have DE. They have only LOST units since 5th. How about Guard? The tanks are probably mostly fine but the infantry? Those models aren't aging well. Similar to CWE - that line really needs looked at. Eldar players are well past due for plastic aspects, and the Guardian kit could probably use some love. The very least they could do is fix the packaging issue with Dire Avengers that was (apparently/supposedly) pretty much caused by Kirby trying to find "creative" ways to make players by more than one box even if they only needed one squad.

There's this persistent need by some to say that anyone complaining is just saying "I want my toys and I want them now" or "waaaaah, Marines are better than me". And most of the time, that's not what's happening. My mains through most of 8th were Marines and DG. I actually switched to Admech and Tsons because I got tired of DG needing an update so bad and the Marine fatigue was already real some time ago. It feels bad when I'm looking at my marine army that has reliably gotten a pretty good to awesome release on a regular schedule for almost 2 years while looking at all the models my buddy's Dark Eldar army can't use anymore because they were removed and never replaced.

There are quite a few major things they could have looked at before releasing Primaris, Primaris Phobos, Primaris Gravis, Primaris Awesome 2.0, Indiana Primaris and the Repulsor of Doom, Return of the Primaris LT, Primaris LT Strikes Back, etc etc.

The other issue is just the inability to say "Yeah, the Primaris seem to be getting a weirdly lopsided release schedule. People are going to all manner of mental gymnastics to avoid saying it. I mean, they don't even have to agree that it's bad, that's fine if someone disagrees, but to deny that it's even happening? In another thread someone compared the Primaris release cycle to the Admech one. What? No ...