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Dudeface wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.

I think it might improve depending how the marine release is handled, as long as it's not stretched over 3 months again, because apparently the time span matters more than the volume, people might calm down for a bit when other factions get a chance next year.

And before all the "durrr hurrr hurrrr GW make marine release every 3 monfs" comments slide in, let that be it.

The time span matters because time is how you measure the number of imbalanced games you have to play while waiting for your update.

How many times you have to hear "awww yeah, sure does stink how bad these rules are mismatched - but hey, you'll get yours soon I'm sure!!!"

Dudeface wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.

I think it might improve depending how the marine release is handled

I will guarantee the forum will be a gak show when it pops out. There's too much emotional investment for it not to be. People will rush to judgement (because taking your time is so passé) and get their jabs in and unless it is a massive dumpster fire the people outside the forum will shrug and keep playing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.

I think it might improve depending how the marine release is handled

I will guarantee the forum will be a gak show when it pops out. There's too much emotional investment for it not to be. People will rush to judgement (because taking your time is so passé) and get their jabs in and unless it is a massive dumpster fire the people outside the forum will shrug and keep playing.

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.

I think it might improve depending how the marine release is handled

I will guarantee the forum will be a gak show when it pops out. There's too much emotional investment for it not to be. People will rush to judgement (because taking your time is so passé) and get their jabs in and unless it is a massive dumpster fire the people outside the forum will shrug and keep playing.

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

"Tell me..How did we come to this Gandalf..."

 Arbitrator wrote:

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

If it sucks what do we do?

1) tell GW
2) wait for a response within the 2 week (sometimes more sometimes less) FAQ window

If no response we are left to our own devices until big FAQ or CA or arms race codexes.

The problem is how broken various people deem it to be. And how do we resolve that? By playing games.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

If it sucks what do we do?

1) tell GW
2) wait for a response within the 2 week (sometimes more sometimes less) FAQ window

If no response we are left to our own devices until big FAQ or CA or arms race codexes.

The problem is how broken various people deem it to be. And how do we resolve that? By playing games.

Historically the broken stuff is pretty obvious... Remember the glaring OP-ness not that long ago? I twas obvious..
Anyone playing 40k for a week could tell how stupidly OP the 2.0 + supplaments were out the gate.. And yet there were many people handwaving it away as nothing wrong/ marines still garbage.. which causes the facepalming and the bickering..

The same people are still handwaving all those months later. Guess its good we waited and saw new edition and new codex arrive? Am I right! or am I wright>!?

The 'same people are still handwaving all those months later', probably because most of us haven't gotten a chance to play any frigging games since March or April.

And for the record? Quite a few of the people who were so dismissive of the Marine+2.0 supplements being 'OP' were doing so because it was clearly a problem with specific supplements and units. not the whole thing.

Funny how we're not supposed to talk about how broken Eldar were without clarifying Ynnari but painting the Marine stuff with one broad brush is a-ok.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The 'same people are still handwaving all those months later', probably because most of us haven't gotten a chance to play any frigging games since March or April.

And for the record? Quite a few of the people who were so dismissive of the Marine+2.0 supplements being 'OP' were doing so because it was clearly a problem with specific supplements and units. not the whole thing.

Funny how we're not supposed to talk about how broken Eldar were without clarifying Ynnari but painting the Marine stuff with one broad brush is a-ok.

Here is the thing.. I dont think I have seen anybody on this forum try and hand-wave ynnari..away.. Or any eldar players not commenting that alitoic CHE spam is an auto take and it sucks for everyone and needs to be nerfed. Only GW didint seem to know what to do as it was the only way to play eldar.. so they just let it go on..

I think we both know you are not making a good faith comment here. Everybody saw Ynnari was just silly and nobody defended it.. (Apart from that one guy who was like "L2P biach, I will kick your ass even without soulburst" and then sold his army on swap shop soon as WD dropped and switched to tau. True story..). So yeah.. Ynanri broken double activation, and CHE alitoic flier being a -2/-3 to hit causing obvious issues for a lot of armies and detrimental to the game... (Point of note - CM rerolls didint even care abotu that with a BS3... so... yeah... go figure...). So thats specifically TWO instances of one rule and one unit being an issue one fixed with WD/FAQ and one with core rules change (could easily have been FAQ as well..)

That horse is buried out back after being pumped full of high caliber rounds and set on fire.. with a single FAQ/WD.

But of course with SM "ohh it was only specific units, strategmes, warlord traits & supplements"
SM & co. Took how many faqs to sort out? How many issues were there? Has it been sorted out.. really ?? We are about to get a new codex.. with new issues.. requiring new FAQs... And 2.0 dropped in April 2020 did it? man my memory must be falling apart.

By all means though keep hand-waving away. You are right of course. Nothing to see.. nothing happened..

The final batch of stuff for the codex and supplements was in October/November of 2019.

If you really want to pretend that there were big events in the winter/spring? That's cool. The spring was basically cancellation after cancellation. I, personally, never got more than two games with my Raven Guard using Infiltrators+Incursors(which weren't even the broken units for that iteration! it was Aggressors, who saw a nerf within two weeks!) under the 2.0 book thanks to a mixture of crap winter weather and COVID.

But keep on tooting that horn. Nobody said anything about Alaitoc(which was a whole separate kettle of fish, and anyone who didn't see major changes coming for them is delusional). I specifically mentioned Ynnari because there were people who insisted that Ynnari weren't broken because with anything but Dark Reapers they were fine--which is what you're effectively arguing wasn't the case with Marines.

Quite a few Marine players actively said "suchandsuch is broken when played with X/Y/Z". Because that's how these things continually shake out.

 Argive wrote:


Historically the broken stuff is pretty obvious... Remember the glaring OP-ness not that long ago? I twas obvious..
Anyone playing 40k for a week could tell how stupidly OP the 2.0 + supplaments were out the gate.. And yet there were many people handwaving it away as nothing wrong/ marines still garbage.. which causes the facepalming and the bickering..

The same people are still handwaving all those months later. Guess its good we waited and saw new edition and new codex arrive? Am I right! or am I wright>!?

Remember how everyone was freaking out about Outriders and they're barely seen? Some units constitute concern like Eradicators, but others get piled on simply for being primaris.

I have yet to see someone call marines garbage though.

OPness that lasted 6 months until a decent nerf - and then no one hot to play. Marines are nowhere near where they were previously.

If GW makes the same magnitude of a mistake then go wild.

Behave... Id maybe wrap yo wrists up lads..

Ok honest question.

Are marines (of some flavour or another) hands down the top tier army since 2.0+ supplements into 9th ed? Its s simple yes or no question..

And yes eradicators and heavy intercessor are just the next thing.. Yeh yeah.. we will wait and see blah blah.. We've been through this before so whatever

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

If it sucks what do we do?

1) tell GW
2) wait for a response within the 2 week (sometimes more sometimes less) FAQ window

If no response we are left to our own devices until big FAQ or CA or arms race codexes.

The problem is how broken various people deem it to be. And how do we resolve that? By playing games.

I don't think anybody's asking you to personally fix it. It's just frustrating when we have to argue over whether there's a problem to begin with, rather than how to address it before GW fixes it.

 catbarf wrote:


I don't think anybody's asking you to personally fix it. It's just frustrating when we have to argue over whether there's a problem to begin with, rather than how to address it before GW fixes it.

Not me personally, but as a community.

I don't think we argue that there is a problem. We argue about the degree of the problem and the reactionary nature of some posts.

9 Eradicators is aggravating to play against, but a lot of armies are making strong showings. We have this new brutal unit, but the top 10s are nothing like they were in October '19. Marine participation in August was 26% of all games. September it was 24.5%, but marines are taking a smaller share of top tables. Is it because not enough people are playing Salamander Eradicators?

Maybe the pandemic has a lot to do with that. Impossible to say at this point.

Also, the concept of a mirror match is so horribly abused (less so last year when marine lists were often similar). It works in Starcraft, because my army isn't fixed and I can respond in-kind. In Warhammer a Black Templars Land Raider list plays nothing like a White Scars Outriders list which plays nothing like a Sally Eradicator list. Forcing people to act like all marine on marine battles only serve to boost their respective placings completely ignores the flexibility of marine lists.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
So much negativity in this thread and this forum as a whole.

I think it might improve depending how the marine release is handled

I will guarantee the forum will be a gak show when it pops out. There's too much emotional investment for it not to be. People will rush to judgement (because taking your time is so passé) and get their jabs in and unless it is a massive dumpster fire the people outside the forum will shrug and keep playing.

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

Oh arbitrator, you give yourself too little credit. As long as you're around, the complaints will always have the edge.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:


I don't think anybody's asking you to personally fix it. It's just frustrating when we have to argue over whether there's a problem to begin with, rather than how to address it before GW fixes it.

Not me personally, but as a community.

I don't think we argue that there is a problem. We argue about the degree of the problem and the reactionary nature of some posts.

9 Eradicators is aggravating to play against, but a lot of armies are making strong showings. We have this new brutal unit, but the top 10s are nothing like they were in October '19. Marine participation in August was 26% of all games. September it was 24.5%, but marines are taking a smaller share of top tables. Is it because not enough people are playing Salamander Eradicators?

Maybe the pandemic has a lot to do with that. Impossible to say at this point.

Also, the concept of a mirror match is so horribly abused (less so last year when marine lists were often similar). It works in Starcraft, because my army isn't fixed and I can respond in-kind. In Warhammer a Black Templars Land Raider list plays nothing like a White Scars Outriders list which plays nothing like a Sally Eradicator list. Forcing people to act like all marine on marine battles only serve to boost their respective placings completely ignores the flexibility of marine lists.

Also, not for nothing but tournament results, especially in the united states, are almost completely worthless at the moment. Huge chunks of the field are staying away, some by choice some by simple fact of not having any events going on within 200 miles of them. People are whining about the meta but 90% of everyone in the US at the very least haven't even managed to PARTICIPATE in the meta yet.

 Argive wrote:
Behave... Id maybe wrap yo wrists up lads..

Ok honest question.

Are marines (of some flavour or another) hands down the top tier army since 2.0+ supplements into 9th ed? Its s simple yes or no question..

And yes eradicators and heavy intercessor are just the next thing.. Yeh yeah.. we will wait and see blah blah.. We've been through this before so whatever

So marines, who make a half of or more , of the people playing should have have a top tier list? So only less popular armies are okey to have top tier lists, but not marines?

Karol wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Behave... Id maybe wrap yo wrists up lads..

Ok honest question.

Are marines (of some flavour or another) hands down the top tier army since 2.0+ supplements into 9th ed? Its s simple yes or no question..

And yes eradicators and heavy intercessor are just the next thing.. Yeh yeah.. we will wait and see blah blah.. We've been through this before so whatever

So marines, who make a half of or more , of the people playing should have have a top tier list? So only less popular armies are okey to have top tier lists, but not marines?

I was asking a yes or no question..

It is a loaded question to ask, as it simplifies the matter too much.

You can make strong tournament lists with Marines 2.0. More than with other armies? Not sure. Marines seem to revolve around a strong infantry core with some added vehicles.
You can make strong tournament lists with Orks as well. At least with them I know of two distinct lists that placed well. One was Boys galore one was a car park.
You can make strong tournament lists with Daemons. Apart from the obvious Nurgle list, we saw mono Slaanesh place top as well.

a_typical_hero wrote:


You can make strong tournament lists with Marines 2.0. More than with other armies? Not sure. Marines seem to revolve around a strong infantry core with some added vehicles.

That's not that relevant. Tournament lists are mostly skew lists that most of the players can't or don't want to play. However SM tournament lists are pretty close to average casual SM lists though, that's what makes them overpowered.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
9 Eradicators is aggravating to play against, but a lot of armies are making strong showings. We have this new brutal unit, but the top 10s are nothing like they were in October '19. Marine participation in August was 26% of all games. September it was 24.5%, but marines are taking a smaller share of top tables. Is it because not enough people are playing Salamander Eradicators?

Maybe the pandemic has a lot to do with that. Impossible to say at this point.

I suspect its just that most tournament lists are being skewed more and more to be anti-marine. Because Marines are top tier.

Its not like Eldar in 7th (at least pre Ynnari) won every single tournament and dominated all the placings. But when 25-30% or something of lists going to a tournament were Eldar, the lists that survived had to be the ones that had a reasonable shot at beating them, because they were bound to run into them.

I think this is better then the situation in December last year - because you are seeing a *meta* response. But that doesn't necessarily impact Marines stomping all over casual tables across the world.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The 'same people are still handwaving all those months later', probably because most of us haven't gotten a chance to play any frigging games since March or April.

And for the record? Quite a few of the people who were so dismissive of the Marine+2.0 supplements being 'OP' were doing so because it was clearly a problem with specific supplements and units. not the whole thing.

Funny how we're not supposed to talk about how broken Eldar were without clarifying Ynnari but painting the Marine stuff with one broad brush is a-ok.

Oh come on. This is how this discussion always always goes.

There's a whole conversation about how some aspect of something is crazy, like say, how dumb it is that every other army in the game has to give up all their other benefits to take powergamed custom chapter tactics but marines don't, which is evidently and obviously leading to tons of """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""successor chapters""""""""""""""""""""""""" who just happen to be painted exactly like the core chapter but take the best two traits, or how obnoxious eradicators are.

And then one galaxybrained idiot goes "ahurr yup marines so op you can take random units n its autowin vs anyone"

and then that one guy is the ONLY thing anyone defending space marines will respond to, because it's easier to characterize all the complaints as that, and not 95% complaints about specific units, rules, supplements, etc.

Are there some things I'd like to see changed that are not just focused into one supplement?

Yes. I think the ability to mix successor chapters with ALL the core chapter rules is always going to be a problem. I think the ability to stack 2 warlord traits on 1 guy is always going to be a problem. I think Bolter Discipline by nature encourages the worst possible playstyle that exists in 40k.

If any other army had those rules, I'd be saying they needed to be removed. If fire warriors could stand still and shoot rapid fire at 30" range, I'd be calling it the exact same cancer that it is when an army of intercessors do it.

But at the same time, i recognize that marines DID need SOMETHING at the time 2.0 came out, and I would want the removal of all those things to be compensated with by buffs to help out underperforming units. Like, I don't know, maybe making all firstborn models +1W, improving all the core marine heavy and special weapons, buffing the chainswords everyone gets for free, etc.

And yes. this abso-freaking-lutely happens with other factions when they are OP. Do you really, really really need me to find the threads from 7th ed where people were arguing that you could take random eldar units and beat a tournament army? arguing that everything in the entire codex including storm guardians and avatars and dire avengers were all broken, it all needed to be nerfed into the ground, it's so fundamentally unfair waaaaah?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And the usual people will run to it's defence, saying we need to wait until the next Chapter Approved/FAQ, that it just released and we need to "Wait and see" for what codexes release next and magically balance it.

Oh and more complaints about people complaining than there are complaints.

If it sucks what do we do?

1) tell GW
2) wait for a response within the 2 week (sometimes more sometimes less) FAQ window

If no response we are left to our own devices until big FAQ or CA or arms race codexes.

The problem is how broken various people deem it to be. And how do we resolve that? By playing games.

The broken stuff will be found out before codex is even in stores with very good chance. And if not...It will take about 6h top once first players get it in their hand to crack it.

40k isn't game where broken stuff is hard to find. It's simple game with no depth. Just bloat. Makes it very easy to find out broken stuff. That's why players have found out broken combo's even months before release with incomplete information at that. GW games aren't complex subtle games.

tneva82 wrote:
The broken stuff will be found out before codex is even in stores with very good chance. And if not...It will take about 6h top once first players get it in their hand to crack it.

40k isn't game where broken stuff is hard to find. It's simple game with no depth. Just bloat. Makes it very easy to find out broken stuff. That's why players have found out broken combo's even months before release with incomplete information at that. GW games aren't complex subtle games.

And yet, (assumingly) locating what is overperforming does not relate directly to predict who is going to dominate in a tournament environment. Point in case: Goonhammer's last article about expectations and reality.
Maybe it is not as shallow as you think.

Bad news, pretty much everything not a tank or a character is core in the SM codex.

This is quite worrying as this adds another level for GW to, essentially, utterly screw with other armies by limiting what is and is not core more dramatically than they did with marines, which is pretty much all core.

stratigo wrote:
Bad news, pretty much everything not a tank or a character is core in the SM codex.

This is quite worrying as this adds another level for GW to, essentially, utterly screw with other armies by limiting what is and is not core more dramatically than they did with marines, which is pretty much all core.

For much of 8th, Marines (and several other armies) did not have Chapter/Order etc Tactics for much of their army whilst many did - took long time to sort out and I think some are still waiting.

 Mr Morden wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Bad news, pretty much everything not a tank or a character is core in the SM codex.

This is quite worrying as this adds another level for GW to, essentially, utterly screw with other armies by limiting what is and is not core more dramatically than they did with marines, which is pretty much all core.

For much of 8th, Marines (and several other armies) did not have Chapter/Order etc Tactics for much of their army whilst many did - took long time to sort out and I think some are still waiting.

For much of 8th marines were bad.

But everyone certainly want their new codex, marine weapons have seen an uptick in weapon damage and, more important to me and I suspect most others, weapon damage so a lot of averaging out to be consistent. As a custodes player, I am almost salivating at the idea of my weapons just doing 2 (or 3 in my dreams) damage.

stratigo wrote:
Bad news, pretty much everything not a tank or a character is core in the SM codex.

This is quite worrying as this adds another level for GW to, essentially, utterly screw with other armies by limiting what is and is not core more dramatically than they did with marines, which is pretty much all core.

Exactly what I predicted. And I largely think that the same will be done for literally every faction, I'd expect. I could be wrong, but I think the only real exceptions to this might be Gretchin, Cultists, and Conscripts, and suchlike.

 Blackie wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:


You can make strong tournament lists with Marines 2.0. More than with other armies? Not sure. Marines seem to revolve around a strong infantry core with some added vehicles.

That's not that relevant. Tournament lists are mostly skew lists that most of the players can't or don't want to play.

Uh, citation needed? For both points.

I think the core part of the sentance is the most.

Because I can't imagine a GK player who doesn't want to play some sort of a tournament version of the army list. It could be like that for other factions too, and then most can suddenly become 51% of armies played.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Bad news, pretty much everything not a tank or a character is core in the SM codex.

This is quite worrying as this adds another level for GW to, essentially, utterly screw with other armies by limiting what is and is not core more dramatically than they did with marines, which is pretty much all core.

Exactly what I predicted. And I largely think that the same will be done for literally every faction, I'd expect. I could be wrong, but I think the only real exceptions to this might be Gretchin, Cultists, and Conscripts, and suchlike.

Necrons didn't get the same amount of core as marines. I think all of 4 necron units get to be core.

stratigo wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Bad news, pretty much everything not a tank or a character is core in the SM codex.

This is quite worrying as this adds another level for GW to, essentially, utterly screw with other armies by limiting what is and is not core more dramatically than they did with marines, which is pretty much all core.

Exactly what I predicted. And I largely think that the same will be done for literally every faction, I'd expect. I could be wrong, but I think the only real exceptions to this might be Gretchin, Cultists, and Conscripts, and suchlike.

Necrons didn't get the same amount of core as marines. I think all of 4 necron units get to be core.

For Necrons, Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks, Tomb Blades, and Lychguard are Core. What is not Core is all characters, all vehicles, all Canoptek units, all Destroyer Cult units, all Dynastic Agent units, all C’tan Shard units, and Flayed Ones. So other than Flayed Ones, we are dealing with the same limitations as space marines (Characters and vehicles) or a bunch of discreet groups of units that generally have additional rules associated with them via a different keyword. Looks bad at first, but it makes sense for thematic and gameplay reasons.