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There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

I think I am starting to get the hobby thing. Today I talked to a guy who plays DA succesors. Rules wise, makes no sense. It is better to play regular DA, and he told me that he is waiting for new rules. Couldn't get it till I saw his army.

The whole thing was converted. no big marine shoulder pads, but Yamon era shoulder guards. All helmets sculpted by head, dedicted by unit to different animals. Back banners with hand painted art, no decals. His tanks were not tanks, but lizardman and self sculpted stuff all with Yamon, Mongolian and north Chinese esthetics. I was baffled and asked him how long he has been building his army. And he said 17 years. And with that and seeing his work, I think I start to understand why the wait and see thing maybe work for some people. Never knew w40k armies can look so beautiful.

 Kithail wrote:
There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

"Renegades and Heretics" were printed in Codex: Eye of Terror by GW in 3rd edition, and received updated lists in Imperial Armour (Forge World) books in 5e, 6e, and 7e. Eldar Corsairs are a lore concept going back to the very beginning of the game but their army list as something distinct from Craftworlds/DE was printed in Imperial Armour in 5e and 7e.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

"Renegades and Heretics" were printed in Codex: Eye of Terror by GW in 3rd edition, and received updated lists in Imperial Armour (Forge World) books in 5e, 6e, and 7e. Eldar Corsairs are a lore concept going back to the very beginning of the game but their army list as something distinct from Craftworlds/DE was printed in Imperial Armour in 5e and 7e.

Well the eye of terror was a campaign book. A campaign that ended. And indeed R&H there was more of a supplement to Imperial Guard than a codex on itself. The rest was also FW supplements of sorts. For me it is like complaining about BFG not being reedited anymore.

In short. R&H codex and Corsairs never had a codex, right?

 Kithail wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

"Renegades and Heretics" were printed in Codex: Eye of Terror by GW in 3rd edition, and received updated lists in Imperial Armour (Forge World) books in 5e, 6e, and 7e. Eldar Corsairs are a lore concept going back to the very beginning of the game but their army list as something distinct from Craftworlds/DE was printed in Imperial Armour in 5e and 7e.

Well the eye of terror was a campaign book. A campaign that ended. And indeed R&H there was more of a supplement to Imperial Guard than a codex on itself. The rest was also FW supplements of sorts. For me it is like complaining about BFG not being reedited anymore.

In short. R&H codex and Corsairs never had a codex, right?

Nothing not printed by Forge World, no. Though I don't think saying "well, your army was never a real army anyways" is going to calm down the people who bought, built, and painted R&H/Corsair armies and are pissed that their rules are no longer being updated.

Why are you guys arguing about a model company's interactive marketing ploy....I mean table top game?

Their goal is to move models, everything past that is nothing more than a marketing tool.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kithail wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

"Renegades and Heretics" were printed in Codex: Eye of Terror by GW in 3rd edition, and received updated lists in Imperial Armour (Forge World) books in 5e, 6e, and 7e. Eldar Corsairs are a lore concept going back to the very beginning of the game but their army list as something distinct from Craftworlds/DE was printed in Imperial Armour in 5e and 7e.

Well the eye of terror was a campaign book. A campaign that ended. And indeed R&H there was more of a supplement to Imperial Guard than a codex on itself. The rest was also FW supplements of sorts. For me it is like complaining about BFG not being reedited anymore.

In short. R&H codex and Corsairs never had a codex, right?

Nothing not printed by Forge World, no. Though I don't think saying "well, your army was never a real army anyways" is going to calm down the people who bought, built, and painted R&H/Corsair armies and are pissed that their rules are no longer being updated.

No, it won't. And I'd like to point out that the rules for R&H in the "not a codex" IA 13 were far better written than any 7th, or 8th, edition codexes. The only codex I'd put on the same level is csm 3.5. In fact the two are both so well regarded that we recently had an entire thread devoted to them right here on dakka.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not the shtick for Tau though, and many of you have lost that plot.

What is the Tau design philosophy if not above average strength shooting (S5+)?

Literally the only ranged weapons in the Tau codex with a strength of less than 5 are flamers, AFP and kroot rifles.

So unless you are going to say that crisis suits equipped with Flamers and AFP alongside Kroot Mercenaries are the basis of the standard Tau army, I think you are talking a load of bollocks on this point.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

"Renegades and Heretics" were printed in Codex: Eye of Terror by GW in 3rd edition, and received updated lists in Imperial Armour (Forge World) books in 5e, 6e, and 7e. Eldar Corsairs are a lore concept going back to the very beginning of the game but their army list as something distinct from Craftworlds/DE was printed in Imperial Armour in 5e and 7e.

The Eye of Terror army was called Lost and the Damned, thank you very much. It was also a very different beast from R&H in terms of list and playstyle options.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
There is something I am not entirely sure about. In which edition were the corsairs and the R&H codexes included?

"Renegades and Heretics" were printed in Codex: Eye of Terror by GW in 3rd edition, and received updated lists in Imperial Armour (Forge World) books in 5e, 6e, and 7e. Eldar Corsairs are a lore concept going back to the very beginning of the game but their army list as something distinct from Craftworlds/DE was printed in Imperial Armour in 5e and 7e.

The Eye of Terror army was called Lost and the Damned, thank you very much. It was also a very different beast from R&H in terms of list and playstyle options.

Yeah, Lost And The Damned was a 3rd Ed supplement that was a nicely generic catch-all list. It could represent anything from a populist uprising, to a Chaos cult, to a zombie horde, to wasteland scavengers, to whatever else you could cook up. Renegades & Heretics, on the other hand, was a 4th Ed variant Imperial Guard list with minimal access to vehicles but a very heavy emphasis on emplaced defenses, artillery support, mines, and other trench warfare accoutrements.

I understand that the R&H list eventually came to be a catch-all like Lost and the Damned was, but it didn't start out that way.

I don't think anyone called index era ACTUALLY balanced. They called it "the most balanced". As close to balanced as it has been. Things were FAR better then they were in 7th and it went down hill after 8th codexes started coming out.

 Lance845 wrote:
I don't think anyone called index era ACTUALLY balanced. They called it "the most balanced". As close to balanced as it has been. Things were FAR better then they were in 7th and it went down hill after 8th codexes started coming out.

This is exactly what I mean.
The time where *everyone* was trying new things at the exact same time was amazing.

And yeah, it goes to show just how bland and uninteresting 8e rules were, and to almost the same extend 9e.
I really do wish they stepped away from stratagems and instead baked abilities into each unit's kit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not the shtick for Tau though, and many of you have lost that plot.

What is the Tau design philosophy if not above average strength shooting (S5+)?

Literally the only ranged weapons in the Tau codex with a strength of less than 5 are flamers, AFP and kroot rifles.

So unless you are going to say that crisis suits equipped with Flamers and AFP alongside Kroot Mercenaries are the basis of the standard Tau army, I think you are talking a load of bollocks on this point.

Tau are only allowed to identify as gundams thank you very much

Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

I COULD imagine. But only because I have suffered under GW.

The "hobby" is like a frog slowly being boiled in water. Except it's been being boiled for like... over 40 years now. People are so used to being treated like crap that they actually thank GW for doing it. It's crazy.

Karol wrote:
I think I am starting to get the hobby thing. Today I talked to a guy who plays DA succesors. Rules wise, makes no sense. It is better to play regular DA, and he told me that he is waiting for new rules. Couldn't get it till I saw his army.

The whole thing was converted. no big marine shoulder pads, but Yamon era shoulder guards. All helmets sculpted by head, dedicted by unit to different animals. Back banners with hand painted art, no decals. His tanks were not tanks, but lizardman and self sculpted stuff all with Yamon, Mongolian and north Chinese esthetics. I was baffled and asked him how long he has been building his army. And he said 17 years. And with that and seeing his work, I think I start to understand why the wait and see thing maybe work for some people. Never knew w40k armies can look so beautiful.

Good stuff! Some armies indeed become an expression for the player that transcends tabletop performance. A fully realized army,y that has personal touches and a semester of player loyalty is a thing of beauty.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

Thats what quick points adjustments in CA are for. You dont need a new whole codex to balance an army

 Billagio wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

Thats what quick points adjustments in CA are for. You dont need a new whole codex to balance an army

But you can Nerf.. I mean Balance an army in the CA 2020 and then balance them again invalidating those points when you release the codex.. How good is that! That's two balance patches for the price of two..

Oh... wait...

 Billagio wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

Thats what quick points adjustments in CA are for. You dont need a new whole codex to balance an army

There is a massive difference between a codex release and a CA point adjustment.

The point that was being made is all codexes should be released at the same time. No staggered releases. No waiting 2 or 3 years to get your new edition treatment.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

Thats what quick points adjustments in CA are for. You dont need a new whole codex to balance an army

There is a massive difference between a codex release and a CA point adjustment.

The point that was being made is all codexes should be released at the same time. No staggered releases. No waiting 2 or 3 years to get your new edition treatment.

And I agree with that. I was just saying that if one of the codexs is stupidly broken, you dont need to wait years for the next big round of codexs to fix it, it can be done via CA

 Billagio wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Honestly they need to stop doing this staggered release bs.

A new edition should come with a release of the full suite of new edition datasheets (index style) followed by the full suite of codexes. Followed by supplement books that give things to everyone, not 1 or 2 armies at a time.

Could you imagine if other competitive games released a patch to a single faction / hero / class and left them overpowered for a year? With every other patch never addressing the problem.
That be the death of the game competitively

Thats what quick points adjustments in CA are for. You dont need a new whole codex to balance an army

There is a massive difference between a codex release and a CA point adjustment.

The point that was being made is all codexes should be released at the same time. No staggered releases. No waiting 2 or 3 years to get your new edition treatment.

And I agree with that. I was just saying that if one of the codexs is stupidly broken, you dont need to wait years for the next big round of codexs to fix it, it can be done via CA

Maybe?

Look at what space marines had at the end of 8th. Super doctrines and build your own chapter tactics. Compare that to Tau. No amount of CA was going to balance those armies. It's going to take the 2-3 year wait for codexes to fix that.

Sorry, let me correct that. It's going to take 2-3 years for a codex release to leave it broken in a different way.

 Lance845 wrote:
The point that was being made is all codexes should be released at the same time. No staggered releases. No waiting 2 or 3 years to get your new edition treatment.

I certainly agree that while GW has become better at releasing codices at a somewhat faster rate, the idea that a faction has to wait in area of 24 months isn't particularity good. Doubly so when edition turn around is looking to be about 3 years. I mean 2/3 of the edition is already gone by for some factions to be in basically a crippled state. I really think GW should attempt to get all codices out within a year with a large chunk of them released within the first 6 months of dropping an edition as a rule-of-thumb. If GW can't really accomplish that, maybe they don't need to push out the latest edition.

Do I think GW will ever accomplish that? No, I don't really think they will. There really isn't anything for them to gain doing so for the extra effort or pressure to try and meet that deadline. The best I can to as a player is try to figure out a comp if I am one of the haves, or if I am one the have-nots do as best as I can under the situation. Part of the reason I think my Primaris are so scary is I started playing them before C:SM 2.0 so when I got those rules they acted as particularity powerful force multiplier to what had been kinda struggling army list. Now with really good rules and me previously struggling with them as led me to playing space marines above my usual level.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The point that was being made is all codexes should be released at the same time. No staggered releases. No waiting 2 or 3 years to get your new edition treatment.

I certainly agree that while GW has become better at releasing codices at a somewhat faster rate, the idea that a faction has to wait in area of 24 months isn't particularity good. Doubly so when edition turn around is looking to be about 3 years. I mean 2/3 of the edition is already gone by for some factions to be in basically a crippled state. I really think GW should attempt to get all codices out within a year with a large chunk of them released within the first 6 months of dropping an edition as a rule-of-thumb. If GW can't really accomplish that, maybe they don't need to push out the latest edition.

Do I think GW will ever accomplish that? No, I don't really think they will. There really isn't anything for them to gain doing so for the extra effort or pressure to try and meet that deadline. The best I can to as a player is try to figure out a comp if I am one of the haves, or if I am one the have-nots do as best as I can under the situation. Part of the reason I think my Primaris are so scary is I started playing them before C:SM 2.0 so when I got those rules they acted as particularity powerful force multiplier to what had been kinda struggling army list. Now with really good rules and me previously struggling with them as led me to playing space marines above my usual level.

No. The best you can do is stop paying GW for treating the player base like this.

When X-Wing releases a new wave of ships they release a set of ships for every faction. When they introduce a new kind of ship they release a new kind for ship for every faction. When they updated to version 2.0 of the rules they released a update to every ship released all at the same time.

When Descent: Journeys in the Dark released a 2nd edition not only did it come with new characters and monsters they put out a upgrade box that gave all the new edition rules for all the 1rst edition content.

If every other god damn company can release their product in waves that support the entire player base then why the hell is anyone happy about GW stringing their players along for literal YEARS? Codex Creep exists because their design goals change by the time they get half way through the codexes and then change again by the time they get to the end. If they just released all the codexes at once then when they decided they wanted to change things later they can release a set of supplement... ALL AT ONCE... that updates everyone to the new design paradigm.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The point that was being made is all codexes should be released at the same time. No staggered releases. No waiting 2 or 3 years to get your new edition treatment.

I certainly agree that while GW has become better at releasing codices at a somewhat faster rate, the idea that a faction has to wait in area of 24 months isn't particularity good. Doubly so when edition turn around is looking to be about 3 years. I mean 2/3 of the edition is already gone by for some factions to be in basically a crippled state. I really think GW should attempt to get all codices out within a year with a large chunk of them released within the first 6 months of dropping an edition as a rule-of-thumb. If GW can't really accomplish that, maybe they don't need to push out the latest edition.

Do I think GW will ever accomplish that? No, I don't really think they will. There really isn't anything for them to gain doing so for the extra effort or pressure to try and meet that deadline. The best I can to as a player is try to figure out a comp if I am one of the haves, or if I am one the have-nots do as best as I can under the situation. Part of the reason I think my Primaris are so scary is I started playing them before C:SM 2.0 so when I got those rules they acted as particularity powerful force multiplier to what had been kinda struggling army list. Now with really good rules and me previously struggling with them as led me to playing space marines above my usual level.

No. The best you can do is stop paying GW for treating the player base like this.

When X-Wing releases a new wave of ships they release a set of ships for every faction. When they introduce a new kind of ship they release a new kind for ship for every faction. When they updated to version 2.0 of the rules they released a update to every ship released all at the same time.

When Descent: Journeys in the Dark released a 2nd edition not only did it come with new characters and monsters they put out a upgrade box that gave all the new edition rules for all the 1rst edition content.

If every other god damn company can release their product in waves that support the entire player base then why the hell is anyone happy about GW stringing their players along for literal YEARS? Codex Creep exists because their design goals change by the time they get half way through the codexes and then change again by the time they get to the end. If they just released all the codexes at once then when they decided they wanted to change things later they can release a set of supplement... ALL AT ONCE... that updates everyone to the new design paradigm.

then go play X-wing.

seriously, if you think you've "suffered under GW" then I dunno... stop giving them money?

I don't give them money. I buy second hand, 3d print, or other sources any models I want and rules are easy to find. When I play I mostly play Apoc or home brew. Both are better games. GW hasn't made a single red cent off me in roughly 2 years.

 Lance845 wrote:


Maybe?

Look at what space marines had at the end of 8th. Super doctrines and build your own chapter tactics. Compare that to Tau. No amount of CA was going to balance those armies. It's going to take the 2-3 year wait for codexes to fix that.

Sorry, let me correct that. It's going to take 2-3 years for a codex release to leave it broken in a different way.

"Due to balance changes, Specialist detachments Doctrines are no longer tournament legal."

EDIT: Wouldn't solve everything, to be clear, but it's the kind of sweeping change you can clearly make in a rules update without a full codex.

You don't need a CA for that.

FAQs have many times brought into the game huge balance changes.

Examples:

Rule of 3
Boots on the ground
Tactical reserves (twice)
Anti soup
Look out Sir changes
Detachment CP redesign
Smite limit
CP reroll nerf
Prepared positions
Fly charge changes
Shock assault
Bolter Discipline
SM doctrine Nerf

And the list isn't considering all the faction specific buffs and nerfs.

If there is one thing that 8th edition didn't lack was rule maintenance. We got so many balance patches that we had multiple threads complaining about the excessive frequency of them.

Well then, there you go. Point being it doesn't need to wait for the full codex.

I suppose there's not much point in doing this to the Marine codex given the rewrite that's happening in a few weeks, but yeah, major stuff does happen outside codexiae.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Doesn't change the fact, that the community will regard it , in general, as negligence of anything but the cashcow, whilest the cahscow get's milked to death.
in the long term, their "tuesday" decision will hurt them.
And for the others, the finecrap units left and those units which just needed and deserved a more pressing update getting ignored time and time again, has an impact on their sales figures.

Buddy, the community at large does not give a single gak that R&H are squatted, lol.

The community at large likely has to be reminded what R&H stands for.