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Since when have become Lighting Claws the benchmark of offensive damage?? I spam them because I love then but they have been crap since at least 8th. Now they have actually a place to take dual lighting instead of literally anything else.

 aphyon wrote:
It's 3 bike squads, remember they could take full 10 man squads of bikes, nobody else could (the limit for most marines was 6+ an attack bike). but close enough.

That's why i was pointing out the guys list at our store. didn't look like scars. it was mostly foot slogging infantry with 3 bikes.

But hey your primaris boys have a speeder coming so that's something at least.

ten man bike squads must have been a 3rd or 4th edition thing. they've been limited to squads of 3-6 like everyone else as long as I've been playing

Well they used to be really good at killing massed infantry when paired- power weapon with +1 attack for an extra close combat weapon, re-rolling all failed wound rolls.

But that's what they used to do, now it is different.

then man bike squads must have been a 3rd or 4th edition thing. they've been limited to squads of 3-6 like everyone else as long as I've been playing

I rate their original rules right up there with the quality of the 3.5 chaos codex. the lore driven nature of the rules is what made me love 40K. but then i started in 3rd when that was a major part of the game.

 aphyon wrote:
Well they used to be really good at killing massed infantry when paired- power weapon with +1 attack for an extra close combat weapon, re-rolling all failed wound rolls.

But that's what they used to do, now it is different.

then man bike squads must have been a 3rd or 4th edition thing. they've been limited to squads of 3-6 like everyone else as long as I've been playing

I rate their original rules right up there with the quality of the 3.5 chaos codex. the lore driven nature of the rules is what made me love 40K. but then i started in 3rd when that was a major part of the game.

rules that work with the lore are good. the chapter supplements for Marines have really been a god send in that regard. the various chapters all fight differtantly

 aphyon wrote:
It's 3 bike squads, remember they could take full 10 man squads of bikes, nobody else could (the limit for most marines was 6+ an attack bike). but close enough.

That's why i was pointing out the guys list at our store. didn't look like scars. it was mostly foot slogging infantry with 3 bikes.

But hey your primaris boys have a speeder coming so that's something at least.

But White Scars aren't just about bikes...

BrianDavion wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
Well they used to be really good at killing massed infantry when paired- power weapon with +1 attack for an extra close combat weapon, re-rolling all failed wound rolls.

But that's what they used to do, now it is different.

then man bike squads must have been a 3rd or 4th edition thing. they've been limited to squads of 3-6 like everyone else as long as I've been playing

I rate their original rules right up there with the quality of the 3.5 chaos codex. the lore driven nature of the rules is what made me love 40K. but then i started in 3rd when that was a major part of the game.

rules that work with the lore are good. the chapter supplements for Marines have really been a god send in that regard. the various chapters all fight differtantly

at the distinct detriment of any other faction.

So no, not a god send.

 Galas wrote:
Since when have become Lighting Claws the benchmark of offensive damage?? I spam them because I love then but they have been crap since at least 8th. Now they have actually a place to take dual lighting instead of literally anything else.

Are you referring to me here? If so, I'd answer: since they became the same cost as a power weapon and still deal way more damage.

in general, I would point to a few major advantages that marine lists in the new codex are going to have over 'crons:

1) More options. This is being discussed generally, but it's worth bringing up first and foremost. The issue of baseline cost of firstborn marines has been fixed, and now marines are backed to being the. Most. flexible. Army. ever. So. many. options. Units like sternguard dw vets vanvets company vets wolf guard tacticals etc etc that had the flexible wargear to allow you to fine-tune your units to your competitive heart's content now have the core statline to back up their options, and boy oh boy has every single option been lovingly crafted in order to make sure you have a reason to take it over any other given option. Contrast that level of effort with necron wargear options: hey what should I take on my Praetorians, oh Staffs, because theyre better. Hey what should I take on my tomb blades, the unit that didn't get the memo that SM bikes were going to W3 and accidentally stayed the same pts cost as them despite having less speed and no melee capabilities, should I take the guns that cost 5 extra points or maybe the gun that gets 2 more shots so it does almost exactly the same damage as both of the other guns?

Add in the fact that, due to the supplement structure, marines have access to twice the stratagems, twice the relics, twice the warlord traits, and just 3x the number of units in general as anyone else, they have a lot more opportunities to come up with optimized combos. And hey, if you really want one of those abilities but don't like the army trait? Successor chapters, the rule marines still have that apparently everybody else still doesn't get, allowing you to do the thing GW should frigging know better to not do, optimize your army trait and still get everything one of the more easily balanced fixed army traits gets as bonus options.

2) more synergy. Look at any given 'cron HQ, let's say the Lord. Same basic cost as a marine captain, obviously basically no wargear options, shittier statline by far (W4 A3 no invuln etc) and whereas a captain gives you "CORE units within 6" reroll 1s to hit" the necron lord gives you "CORE units within 6"....move 1" more" and "Select ONE core unit within 6" to reroll 1s to hit."

Oh, and lest you get excited about that +1" move ability lets remember marines just automatically move 1" more than 'crons in general.

Also, what's CORE? Well, in marines, it's "Everything that's not a tank, and not a character." Everything in the whole codex. Literal dozens of units. Heavy weapon units, VEHICLE keyword units, basic troops, elite bodyguards, support units, fast bikers, etc. What's CORE for 'Crons?

Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Deathmarks, maybe Tomb Blades (there's literally a single finger right on top of where the keyword might be on my images, lol). Thaaaaaaat's it. And nearly every ability your HQ characters can have is limited to CORE units only except for the aura on the destroyers, limited to DESTROYER units only. Well, except for those 30-point res orbs that will never in a million years make you 30 points back.

The only support units that seem to not be shackled to CORE are the canoptek reanimator, which is still hot trash (110 point unit that does next to nothing offensively and is fully targetable T5 W6 anyone? Come on, don't be shy, it's 3x the points and exactly 1 single wound more durable than an ork killa kan....get one before it's gone!) and the triarch stalker, a 140 point unit armed with exactly 1/3 of the firepower of a 120-point squad of eradicators..

3) Not good at the new missions. The new Res rules push Crons into a max-size unit playstyle, and the units that appear to be actually good out of the codex are also 300-point behemoths. I think if you were to make an optimized cron list for fighting, it would be a super suboptimal list for actually doing the missions in 9th, and in competitive play that will push their winrates down, even if casual players who base an army's apparent strength on their ability to kill don't feel this one as much.

All in all, I expect pretty standard no-allies xenos codex performance out of the necrons: 1 core, good build with minor variations competitive players try (say, which C'tan to take, which supporting elite units to bring alongside the blocks of warriors, which weapons to bring on a couple different units to shift with the meta) mid tier performance at best with a small play %, with most really good performances driven by a bunch of opponents not expecting to face necrons and being prepared instead for the meta army.

Which will absolutely, at least for now, remain marines.

Bit of conterversal opinion here, but IMO the necron codex is actually better COMPETITIVELY than the marine codex. Now what that means is that in most more casual games, I am expecting marines to win more often than not over necrons. However, once list building get’s more optimized I expect necrons to have an edge over marines.

This is because while necrons have less generally powerful units than marines, their top tier options are mostly better than marines have. Outside of a certain melta toting unit marines have, all their best competitive units/strategies got nerfed. Top teir marine lists always ran grav devastators, and they got hit hard. Same thing with aggressors (and centurions which would have replaced aggressors otherwise). People love to complain about primaris troops, but most competitive lists invested minimal points in this area. Scouts being moved to elites hurts this, and I also don’t like heavy intercessors due to how expensive they are. All characters outside of the apothecary got worse as well.

Sure they got buffs in other places, but I feel marines now struggle with hordes in a way they didn’t use to. At the very least we don’t know if these new buffs will be able to counteract all the nerfs.

Necrons meanwhile have the void dragon and the nightbringer, which I’d be willing to bet large moneys will staples in all competitive lists and will be very quickly hated by non necron players. Doomstalkers are also OP, as are scarabs. Necron troop options are also better than marines, IMO. Finally, it seems one of CC options will bound to be good.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No. Instead you get an extra 1AP when you roll 6s to wound...an ability so powerful it has to be gated behind a once per game limitation you decide at the start of the game, and that you need a character within 9" to proc.

Space marines 1AP period in predictable ways is not nearly as powerful, and therefore just activates automatically with no thought required.

Much like the T'au commander's master of war ability, which is 1/battle (barring 2 sept-specific special characters) and only affects units in range of that commander (but the cost of the ability is baked into every commander, ofc).

I am not hopeful that master of war is going to be fixed in 9th if protocols weren't done right.

Salt donkey wrote:
Bit of conterversal opinion here, but IMO the necron codex is actually better COMPETITIVELY than the marine codex. Now what that means is that in most more casual games, I am expecting marines to win more often than not over necrons. However, once list building get’s more optimized I expect necrons to have an edge over marines.

This is because while necrons have less generally powerful units than marines, their top tier options are mostly better than marines have. Outside of a certain melta toting unit marines have, all their best competitive units/strategies got nerfed. Top teir marine lists always ran grav devastators, and they got hit hard. Same thing with aggressors (and centurions which would have replaced aggressors otherwise). People love to complain about primaris troops, but most competitive lists invested minimal points in this area. Scouts being moved to elites hurts this, and I also don’t like heavy intercessors due to how expensive they are. All characters outside of the apothecary got worse as well.

Sure they got buffs in other places, but I feel marines now struggle with hordes in a way they didn’t use to. At the very least we don’t know if these new buffs will be able to counteract all the nerfs.

Necrons meanwhile have the void dragon and the nightbringer, which I’d be willing to bet large moneys will staples in all competitive lists and will be very quickly hated by non necron players. Doomstalkers are also OP, as are scarabs. Necron troop options are also better than marines, IMO. Finally, it seems one of CC options will bound to be good.

I can see it, the scary eradicators wasting shots on doomstalkers and the marines being unable to take the c'tan apart whilst drowning under warrior bodies might become a thing.

 Sasori wrote:
Our Stratagems improved, our Dynasty codes are also vastly improved.

Uhhhhh??? Not really.....

LOL, doomstalkers OP?

You mean that unit that has a D6 shot, D6 damage gun? just one of them?

Yeah, that's the kind of reliability that just SCREAMS "Tournament Unit" isn't it?

Nothing like rolling that D6 for your unit's shots that you now cannot reroll, and getting a 1. Whoops, 140pts of model is shooting 1 lascannon this turn, hahahahaah!

Salt donkey wrote:
Bit of conterversal opinion here, but IMO the necron codex is actually better COMPETITIVELY than the marine codex. Now what that means is that in most more casual games, I am expecting marines to win more often than not over necrons. However, once list building get’s more optimized I expect necrons to have an edge over marines.

This is because while necrons have less generally powerful units than marines, their top tier options are mostly better than marines have. Outside of a certain melta toting unit marines have, all their best competitive units/strategies got nerfed. Top teir marine lists always ran grav devastators, and they got hit hard. Same thing with aggressors (and centurions which would have replaced aggressors otherwise). People love to complain about primaris troops, but most competitive lists invested minimal points in this area. Scouts being moved to elites hurts this, and I also don’t like heavy intercessors due to how expensive they are. All characters outside of the apothecary got worse as well.

Sure they got buffs in other places, but I feel marines now struggle with hordes in a way they didn’t use to. At the very least we don’t know if these new buffs will be able to counteract all the nerfs.

Necrons meanwhile have the void dragon and the nightbringer, which I’d be willing to bet large moneys will staples in all competitive lists and will be very quickly hated by non necron players. Doomstalkers are also OP, as are scarabs. Necron troop options are also better than marines, IMO. Finally, it seems one of CC options will bound to be good.

The C'Tan are great, agreed. Not sure I'd call the Troops better. Intercessors are generally seen as some of the best Troops in the game and while Immortals got a really solid buff in the new Codex I think on balance I'd prefer Intercessors. Dommstalkers being OP is an interesting take. How do you figure that? They have decent stats, but only hit on a 4+ base and have the most random anti-tank weapon in the game. Also, Scarabs OP? WTF? Again, they're a decent unit and probably good enough to take in most Necron armies but I have no idea how you could call them OP. The fact a lot of the previously good SM units got nerfed doesn't mean the Codex overall is worse since there are other options that got better or entirely new units that are just fantastically good.

the_scotsman wrote:
LOL, doomstalkers OP?

You mean that unit that has a D6 shot, D6 damage gun? just one of them?

Yeah, that's the kind of reliability that just SCREAMS "Tournament Unit" isn't it?

Nothing like rolling that D6 for your unit's shots that you now cannot reroll, and getting a 1. Whoops, 140pts of model is shooting 1 lascannon this turn, hahahahaah!

2d3 shots would have felt a little nicer admittedly.

the_scotsman wrote:
LOL, doomstalkers OP?

You mean that unit that has a D6 shot, D6 damage gun? just one of them?

Yeah, that's the kind of reliability that just SCREAMS "Tournament Unit" isn't it?

Nothing like rolling that D6 for your unit's shots that you now cannot reroll, and getting a 1. Whoops, 140pts of model is shooting 1 lascannon this turn, hahahahaah!

It is blast so that is something. It all averages out and sometimes it does excessive damage. It's always str 10 and ap-5 though so it's really not any more random that lesser weapons. It's not OP but for 140 points it is a top tier unit.

Sounds like a demolisher cannon with better AP to me. Does it have more range? How does the Doomstalker's defensive stats compare to a Leman Russ? Can it shoot twice if it moves at half speed?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Tbh Stratagems are fine. On the whole they’re a fun mechanic and the game is more fun than it has been since 2nd for me. YMMV. Just wanted to add a counterpoint to the salt overdoses. Some Strats should be unit abilities, and the costing on some is wrong, but they generate some fun moments in our games and that’s what we’re here for.

People disliking more equipment become strats is now a "salt overdose"? Sheesh...

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
LOL, doomstalkers OP?

You mean that unit that has a D6 shot, D6 damage gun? just one of them?

Yeah, that's the kind of reliability that just SCREAMS "Tournament Unit" isn't it?

Nothing like rolling that D6 for your unit's shots that you now cannot reroll, and getting a 1. Whoops, 140pts of model is shooting 1 lascannon this turn, hahahahaah!

It is blast so that is something. It all averages out and sometimes it does excessive damage. It's always str 10 and ap-5 though so it's really not any more random that lesser weapons. It's not OP but for 140 points it is a top tier unit.

Frankly, I would be amazed if the doomstalker saw significant play competitively. Compared to a piece like an Onager Dunecrawler with NL, the amount of reliability that you gain from having easily accessible rerolls to hit and min-3 damage is well worth the drop from D6 hits to D3, and we haven't seen a lot of those tearing it up in competitive play either. Stacking a large amount of points into something that you have to also buff to make it reliable, screen to keep it from being tied up, and at the end of the day you STILL might just get voip'd out of existence by one of several hyperefficient suicide antitank units running around in the current meta...it just doesn't seem like a unit you'd bring to the board to do your tank killing.

Not when you've got the supreme reliability of CHARACTER-protected, damage-capped t7 4++ ctan with apocalyptically powerful antitank capabilities in the same arsenal.

Do you have a different definition of "Top Tier" than I'm using here? in my eyes for something to be top tier, I'd say it'd be "something I'd consider taking in a tournament army list." I cannot come up with a reason to take a doomstalker over a ctan for that purpose. Or heck - a Doom Scythe. For 60 more points, I get

1) An extra 10 tesla shots. Not amazing, but nice.

2) the ability to reserve for 1cp if my opponent has a unit like erads/rets waiting to instapop it, so I guarantee 1 round of shots.

3) Heavy 3 instead of d6 shots, and damage 3+d3 instead of D6.

4) cares more about line of sight than pretty much any long range antitank (can't move and shoot at full effectiveness) vs could not give less of a gak about any of that because it can basically be anywhere.

The doomstalker seems to suffer the same exact problems that cause people to consider the Vindicator unusably bad. What is the distinction there?

Doomsday Arks became the go to, so randomness isn't necessary the end of the world, even if it will feel awful when a tournament run dies because you get two turns of 1-2 shots.

I might be on completely the wrong end of things, but I think the power of the Necron Codex will be in assault. The Nightbringer stands in for Ghaz while blobs of Skorpekhs and Wraiths run around eating everything else. Warriors or immortals meanwhile hold the backfield.

I mean without regard to optimisation I think for 2000 points you could have:

Catacomb Command Barge
Skorpekh Lord
Nightbringer
3*10 Necron Warriors
Some arrangement of 28 Skorpekhs, Wraiths, and/or Ophydians. Vary to taste.

Depending on how Eradicators twist the meta, you might miss some dedicated anti-armour, in which case slot in the Void Dragon over the Nightbringer maybe.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sounds like a demolisher cannon with better AP to me. Does it have more range? How does the Doomstalker's defensive stats compare to a Leman Russ? Can it shoot twice if it moves at half speed?

1) yes, 48" range.

2) the stalker is T6 3+ 4++ vs a LR being T8 3+. Same wounds. So the Doomstalker is:

-Better vs a Lascannon
-Better vs a melta
-The same vs a battlecannon/missile launcher
-Worse vs an autocannon
-The same vs a heavy bolter

3) No, in fact if it moves, its gun becomes a Battlecannon instead of a super-demolisher.

A Leman Russ demolisher is going to have twice the firepower, half the range, and different, probably slightly worse, durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Doomsday Arks became the go to, so randomness isn't necessary the end of the world, even if it will feel awful when a tournament run dies because you get two turns of 1-2 shots.

I might be on completely the wrong end of things, but I think the power of the Necron Codex will be in assault. The Nightbringer stands in for Ghaz while blobs of Skorpekhs and Wraiths run around eating everything else. Warriors or immortals meanwhile hold the backfield.

I mean without regard to optimisation I think for 2000 points you could have:

Catacomb Command Barge
Skorpekh Lord
Nightbringer
3*10 Necron Warriors
Some arrangement of 28 Skorpekhs, Wraiths, and/or Ophydians. Vary to taste.

Depending on how Eradicators twist the meta, you might miss some dedicated anti-armour, in which case slot in the Void Dragon over the Nightbringer maybe.

Wraiths seem solid. I have no clue why you'd ever go for a skorphekh or Ophidyan over them, just on the fact that they have a good invulnerable and the melee destroyers do not.

Necron Deep Strike is not Marine Deep Strike. necrons don't have on-demand +2" charge aura on a 130 point character who also deep strikes. Wraith melee makes an effective distraction carnifex in some list setups, but I dunno. untargetable ctan backing up walls of unkillable warriors and immortals seems like a fairly ironclad strategy to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Doomsday Arks became the go to, so randomness isn't necessary the end of the world, even if it will feel awful when a tournament run dies because you get two turns of 1-2 shots.

I might be on completely the wrong end of things, but I think the power of the Necron Codex will be in assault. The Nightbringer stands in for Ghaz while blobs of Skorpekhs and Wraiths run around eating everything else. Warriors or immortals meanwhile hold the backfield.

I mean without regard to optimisation I think for 2000 points you could have:

Catacomb Command Barge
Skorpekh Lord
Nightbringer
3*10 Necron Warriors
Some arrangement of 28 Skorpekhs, Wraiths, and/or Ophydians. Vary to taste.

Depending on how Eradicators twist the meta, you might miss some dedicated anti-armour, in which case slot in the Void Dragon over the Nightbringer maybe.

Doomsdays became the go-to when both Doomsdays, heavy destroyers and doom scythes were lolrandom d6 damage. neither of the latter now have that weakness.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sounds like a demolisher cannon with better AP to me. Does it have more range? How does the Doomstalker's defensive stats compare to a Leman Russ? Can it shoot twice if it moves at half speed?

1) yes, 48" range.

2) the stalker is T6 3+ 4++ vs a LR being T8 3+. Same wounds. So the Doomstalker is:

-Better vs a Lascannon
-Better vs a melta
-The same vs a battlecannon/missile launcher
-Worse vs an autocannon
-The same vs a heavy bolter

3) No, in fact if it moves, its gun becomes a Battlecannon instead of a super-demolisher.

A Leman Russ demolisher is going to have twice the firepower, half the range, and different, probably slightly worse, durability.

Well, that sounds interesting, at least. It isn't just a demolisher cannon+. Unfortunately interesting doesn't always equal good. But it definitely sounds like it could be.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wraiths seem solid. I have no clue why you'd ever go for a skorphekh or Ophidyan over them, just on the fact that they have a good invulnerable and the melee destroyers do not.

Necron Deep Strike is not Marine Deep Strike. necrons don't have on-demand +2" charge aura on a 130 point character who also deep strikes. Wraith melee makes an effective distraction carnifex in some list setups, but I dunno. untargetable ctan backing up walls of unkillable warriors and immortals seems like a fairly ironclad strategy to me.

I'm pretty sure you can target the C'Tan. Its rules explicitly say you can ignore look out sir when targeting it?

Charging out of Deep Strike is an issue - but Novokh for the +1 could mitigate it somewhat. Unfortunately you can't have that and obsec, but I may be overvaluing that.

I think the argument on Skorpekhs is just the significantly higher expected damage output. To risk of taking both is someone will just kill them first and handle the wraiths later, but then the wraiths are going to be in their lines turn 2, so they may not be able to ignore them.

One important thing to note about the Doomstalker is that it's BS doesn't degrade as it loses wounds. It's firing at full firepower until it dies.

It also has For the Greater Good, which may or may not come into play some games, and it always fires on high power when that happens.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
LOL, doomstalkers OP?

You mean that unit that has a D6 shot, D6 damage gun? just one of them?

Yeah, that's the kind of reliability that just SCREAMS "Tournament Unit" isn't it?

Nothing like rolling that D6 for your unit's shots that you now cannot reroll, and getting a 1. Whoops, 140pts of model is shooting 1 lascannon this turn, hahahahaah!

It is blast so that is something. It all averages out and sometimes it does excessive damage. It's always str 10 and ap-5 though so it's really not any more random that lesser weapons. It's not OP but for 140 points it is a top tier unit.

Frankly, I would be amazed if the doomstalker saw significant play competitively. Compared to a piece like an Onager Dunecrawler with NL, the amount of reliability that you gain from having easily accessible rerolls to hit and min-3 damage is well worth the drop from D6 hits to D3, and we haven't seen a lot of those tearing it up in competitive play either. Stacking a large amount of points into something that you have to also buff to make it reliable, screen to keep it from being tied up, and at the end of the day you STILL might just get voip'd out of existence by one of several hyperefficient suicide antitank units running around in the current meta...it just doesn't seem like a unit you'd bring to the board to do your tank killing.

Not when you've got the supreme reliability of CHARACTER-protected, damage-capped t7 4++ ctan with apocalyptically powerful antitank capabilities in the same arsenal.

Do you have a different definition of "Top Tier" than I'm using here? in my eyes for something to be top tier, I'd say it'd be "something I'd consider taking in a tournament army list." I cannot come up with a reason to take a doomstalker over a ctan for that purpose. Or heck - a Doom Scythe. For 60 more points, I get

1) An extra 10 tesla shots. Not amazing, but nice.

2) the ability to reserve for 1cp if my opponent has a unit like erads/rets waiting to instapop it, so I guarantee 1 round of shots.

3) Heavy 3 instead of d6 shots, and damage 3+d3 instead of D6.

4) cares more about line of sight than pretty much any long range antitank (can't move and shoot at full effectiveness) vs could not give less of a gak about any of that because it can basically be anywhere.

The doomstalker seems to suffer the same exact problems that cause people to consider the Vindicator unusably bad. What is the distinction there?

I like nightscythes too. In this eddition though flyers are basically boned. With negs to hit capped at -1. You are just giving people a discount to advance and shoot or move with a heavy and shoot without hitting any worse. No quantum or no invune is really hurting it. Plus they raised it's price. I love the damage profile though. Absolutely excellent unit for hunting gravis models. You could be right I wouldn't be surprised seeing 2/3 of these in a list specifically for mercing gravis.

2 DDA and 2 night scythe is a pretty good option.

The C'tan is better imo, but you can only have one per detachment. And I want to second it that they do have a special rule saying they can't benefit from Look out, Sir.

Interestingly, Necrons do have an answer to the Master of Sanctity Jump Pack Chaplain's +2" to charge litany, but it basically only works for lychguard because it is CORE-limited.

Take a Night Scythe, reserve it, and then use the Prismatic 1Cp stratagem to set the Lychguard unit up 3" away from it when it arrives from reseves.

Boom, 145-pt support unit that allows you to do a 6" charge from deep strike. and as a bonus, you also get a crappy little plane, which I rate as generally a bit more effective than a chappy.

The only question is at 28ppm whether scytheguard are good enough for that capability to matter. They certainly get good points return vs meqs and you can take down a vehicle for 1cp making them S8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
LOL, doomstalkers OP?

You mean that unit that has a D6 shot, D6 damage gun? just one of them?

Yeah, that's the kind of reliability that just SCREAMS "Tournament Unit" isn't it?

Nothing like rolling that D6 for your unit's shots that you now cannot reroll, and getting a 1. Whoops, 140pts of model is shooting 1 lascannon this turn, hahahahaah!

It is blast so that is something. It all averages out and sometimes it does excessive damage. It's always str 10 and ap-5 though so it's really not any more random that lesser weapons. It's not OP but for 140 points it is a top tier unit.

Frankly, I would be amazed if the doomstalker saw significant play competitively. Compared to a piece like an Onager Dunecrawler with NL, the amount of reliability that you gain from having easily accessible rerolls to hit and min-3 damage is well worth the drop from D6 hits to D3, and we haven't seen a lot of those tearing it up in competitive play either. Stacking a large amount of points into something that you have to also buff to make it reliable, screen to keep it from being tied up, and at the end of the day you STILL might just get voip'd out of existence by one of several hyperefficient suicide antitank units running around in the current meta...it just doesn't seem like a unit you'd bring to the board to do your tank killing.

Not when you've got the supreme reliability of CHARACTER-protected, damage-capped t7 4++ ctan with apocalyptically powerful antitank capabilities in the same arsenal.

Do you have a different definition of "Top Tier" than I'm using here? in my eyes for something to be top tier, I'd say it'd be "something I'd consider taking in a tournament army list." I cannot come up with a reason to take a doomstalker over a ctan for that purpose. Or heck - a Doom Scythe. For 60 more points, I get

1) An extra 10 tesla shots. Not amazing, but nice.

2) the ability to reserve for 1cp if my opponent has a unit like erads/rets waiting to instapop it, so I guarantee 1 round of shots.

3) Heavy 3 instead of d6 shots, and damage 3+d3 instead of D6.

4) cares more about line of sight than pretty much any long range antitank (can't move and shoot at full effectiveness) vs could not give less of a gak about any of that because it can basically be anywhere.

The doomstalker seems to suffer the same exact problems that cause people to consider the Vindicator unusably bad. What is the distinction there?

I like nightscythes too. In this eddition though flyers are basically boned. With negs to hit capped at -1. You are just giving people a discount to advance and shoot or move with a heavy and shoot without hitting any worse. No quantum or no invune is really hurting it. Plus they raised it's price. I love the damage profile though. Absolutely excellent unit for hunting gravis models. You could be right I wouldn't be surprised seeing 2/3 of these in a list specifically for mercing gravis.

2 DDA and 2 night scythe is a pretty good option.

Flyers can still deep strike for 1cp thanks to reserves. in a world of eradicators and retributors, a 4++ wont keep you alive any more than a -1 to hit will. being off the board is the only guaranteed way to get your shots off.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not when you've got the supreme reliability of CHARACTER-protected, damage-capped t7 4++ ctan with apocalyptically powerful antitank capabilities in the same arsenal.

ctans dont benefit from look out sir.

Erads are a joke. No way they exist much longer than a few weeks like this. Marines stuff that is OP gets nerfed quickly. I also doubt outflank continues to exist ether. Remember turn 1 deepstrike in 8th? That didn't take long to nerf after that created so much problems.

Army setups I like for 'crons:

Silver Tide: Take no non-woundcapped heavy unit, take large units of flayer warriors backed up by units like the silent king and nightbringer to keep the enemy from safely closing to engage the warriors in melee. Crypteks for HQ slots, probably 1x patrol or 2x patrols so you can take 2 ctan if you dont want to bring the king.

destroyer spam: a unit of claw wraiths i like as a distraction carnifex for this setup because they have the same W3 defensive profile but pack an invuln. Then take big units of lokhusts with hidden heavy lokhusts to hurt tanks. Min squads of flayed ones make great deep striking action spammers to allow your floaty bois to concentrate on the harvest.

Elite Army: 10-man immortal squads make the single targeted abilities on the various HQs actually worthwhile to use, provide a melee screen with some sword and shield lychguard and go brawl in the middle of the board. Good weapons for going into a MEQ meta, and your defensive profiles are different from the new MEQ that I doubt people will be bringing a lot of what you don't want to see (MW spam, high-AP single-damage weapons)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Erads are a joke. No way they exist much longer than a few weeks like this. Marines stuff that is OP gets nerfed quickly. I also doubt outflank continues to exist ether. Remember turn 1 deepstrike in 8th? That didn't take long to nerf after that created so much problems.

We'll see. I can only speak to what the state of the game is right now, not what I assume the state of the game will be after what is currently strong gets nerfed. Erads are not the only powerful point removal unit durrently making heavy vehicles not useful.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Erads are a joke. No way they exist much longer than a few weeks like this. Marines stuff that is OP gets nerfed quickly. I also doubt outflank continues to exist ether. Remember turn 1 deepstrike in 8th? That didn't take long to nerf after that created so much problems.

unless im missing something, you can't outflank on turn one?