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Yeah, I was calculating 12” for rapid fire because I figured that would probably be a unit I deepstrike in. Doing some more comparisons, it may be better to just go plasma inceptors though. 2 plasma vets costs the same as 1 plasma inceptor but they would get free deepstrike and against units of 6+ the blast rule would mean more shots.

I got the same results you did for the shotgun math, but for salt in the wound, the plasma vets would also get a free chainsword for an extra attack and ap making them better in melee too.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, I was calculating 12” for rapid fire because I figured that would probably be a unit I deepstrike in. Doing some more comparisons, it may be better to just go plasma inceptors though. 2 plasma vets costs the same as 1 plasma inceptor but they would get free deepstrike and against units of 6+ the blast rule would mean more shots.

I got the same results you did for the shotgun math, but for salt in the wound, the plasma vets would also get a free chainsword for an extra attack and ap making them better in melee too.

Inceptors suiciding themselves would be even more of a loss though.

I had my first game against Necrons today and felt pretty woefully outmatched. Anything D2 I brought was largely wasted except against Scarabs, but that’s what he wanted me to shoot I think. The 20 Warrior + Veil combined with the Warden fall back and shoot really allowed him to capitalize on the middle of the board after rolling up first turn. At 1500 points I didn’t feel like I had the assets to cover my own objective in the No Mans Land scenario. I had 2 HQ’s and 10 sword/board marines in a Blackstar which I believe is a potential misstep even with the fancy Stealth stratagem.

I liked the Shotguns, I took 5 combat squadded in my teleportarium and they did a good job tying up an objective and mucking up some scarabs. I did have generally poor rolls though but I think having a terminator librarian drop in to 5+ FNP something supported by the Dominus Aegis is where it will be at, but finding the balance between shooting and melee is hard. I didn’t find the Stormshields dispersed throughout units as handy as before either and I’m feeling like the lists I make for fighting marines and Custodes opponents which focus on increasing damage per shot may not work that well vs other competitive players running less of those multi wound models. I used most of my CP’s rerolling charges and using the Overkill strat to lower RP, and on my Dreadnaught for Wisdom of Ancients.

I think a Chapter Champion with the Warlord trait could really help my in your face play style, I like the relic sword but have heard the talk of putting the Aegis here and that sounds really fun. Tomorrow I might try that out in a 2k game. I was mostly out of options on the table by turn 3 but I had 600+ points tie up in my Corvus and that seemed like my downfall.

I am really confused how to build Proteus teams at this stage honestly. I’ve been thinking 8 vets + 2 Terminators, 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Storm Shield and 2 Mooks. Can I split this 4 vets/1 Termi? I thought this might help with my back line scoring while giving me late game options to pull them into the fight with a homer or Beacon?

Runt Nosher wrote:

I am really confused how to build Proteus teams at this stage honestly. I’ve been thinking 8 vets + 2 Terminators, 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Storm Shield and 2 Mooks. Can I split this 4 vets/1 Termi? I thought this might help with my back line scoring while giving me late game options to pull them into the fight with a homer or Beacon?

Yes, that is an entirely legal combat squad configuration. I've been eyeballing similar configurations for my full Proteus list.

Given we pretty much take every slot as Troops, I haven't found much need to worry about slots in general.

One thing I'd caution about Plasma is that while they're efficient against most marines, that efficiency plummets against Gravis, which might really kick off once the Heavies get released.

 LunarSol wrote:

One thing I'd caution about Plasma is that while they're efficient against most marines, that efficiency plummets against Gravis, which might really kick off once the Heavies get released.

True, but remember that we do have access to some D3 plasma in Dreadnoughts (of several flavors) as well as Hellblasters. I dont know that any infantry options can displace the HMR Eradicator for Gravis hunting, but the mechanized options are very much there.

It's one of the reasons I'm such a massive fan of the Plasma Redemptor. That thing is made to chew up Gravis for breakfast.

I personally am not a fan of anything that will kill the user, efficiency be darned.

I guess I like to get all the kills on friendly and hostile models myself. Grew up playing skaven.

I considered hellblasters, but a vet with plasma gun and chainsword for 8 points less while having a higher leadership, more attacks in melee, and a better ap in melee just made it a no go for me.

I am worried about the rise of 3 wound models in eradicators, heavy intercessors, blade guard vets, and inceptors though. Especially because they’ll become more and more prevalent when people can buy them separately and after they’ve had time to paint them. I haven’t found any solutions I love myself yet other than the occasional thunder hammer.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

I considered hellblasters, but a vet with plasma gun and chainsword for 8 points less while having a higher leadership, more attacks in melee, and a better ap in melee just made it a no go for me.

For general battle-line troopers I fully agree. The curveball comes from the Heavy Hellblasters (which remember can be tucked into Fortis Teams). Their super long range, ability to hit S9 and now flat 3 damage makes them effectively super-reliable lascannons. They have a role for heavy infantry hunting, but can also do serious work against Gravis and Custodian targets.

Again, I dont think they're doing the job better than HMR Eradicators, but the calculus may change when Eradicators get their eventual (and frankly well needed) nerf.

[quote ]For general battle-line troopers I fully agree. The curveball comes from the Heavy Hellblasters (which remember can be tucked into Fortis Teams). Their super long range, ability to hit S9 and now flat 3 damage makes them effectively super-reliable lascannons. They have a role for heavy infantry hunting, but can also do serious work against Gravis and Custodian targets.

Again, I dont think they're doing the job better than HMR Eradicators, but the calculus may change when Eradicators get their eventual (and frankly well needed) nerf.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.

For heavy infantry hunting, maybe. For hunting T7 and T8 targets, absolutely not. They're different tools for very different jobs.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

But I would consider the heavy version for the backfield. Only, if you are willing to invest in them, then why not investing in 5 eliminators with las-fusils?

Because Las Fusil Eliminators are more expensive, cannot pair with an ablative model that shares their range profile, and the loss of a point of strength and a point of AP is extremely significant.

I did consider trying the hellblasters mixed in with intercessors a couple pages back because I also like the autobolt rifles, but I've been less inclined to use them now that they've lost SIA. I just can't shake the thought that the vets make better ablative wounds with their SIA, superior melee, and durability options (/storm shields). The assault hellblaster weapon is nice, but is it worth 8 points per model and decreased melee effectiveness?

The vets have been especially appealing to me because of how hard they still hit in melee with an extra attack and ap over their primaris counterparts while still being shooting allstars.

I'll look into the eliminators with las fusils because you could combat squad 1 infiltrator with some eliminators for a good backfield unit that blocks deepstrikes and is also pretty tough against shooting attacks. I think I like that more than the terminators and vets with missile launchers I've seen some people suggesting.

Spectrus KTs are pretty great, but I can't see wanting more than one of them. The double anti DS bubble is really nice, but otherwise, the non-Eliminator half is paying a lot for forward deployment and little else. I think there's plenty of room for the Cyclone Proteus Combat Squad in the same army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I did consider trying the hellblasters mixed in with intercessors a couple pages back because I also like the autobolt rifles, but I've been less inclined to use them now that they've lost SIA. I just can't shake the thought that the vets make better ablative wounds with their SIA, superior melee, and durability options (/storm shields). The assault hellblaster weapon is nice, but is it worth 8 points per model and decreased melee effectiveness?

The vets have been especially appealing to me because of how hard they still hit in melee with an extra attack and ap over their primaris counterparts while still being shooting allstars.

I'll look into the eliminators with las fusils because you could combat squad 1 infiltrator with some eliminators for a good backfield unit that blocks deepstrikes and is also pretty tough against shooting attacks. I think I like that more than the terminators and vets with missile launchers I've seen some people suggesting.

Depending on if they're worth taking over our other HQ options, another thing to keep in mind is that you can give the eliminators a single comms array, letting them benefit from a phobos captain wherever they are on the board. Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, isn't bad at all. (But again, this relies on having a phobos captain.)

I'm not sure if there's room for that captain though. We already need/want - a watchmaster, a librarian, someone with a shield for the aegis, maybe an apothecary... Not sure how many heroes we can hammer into a single army list!

Sterling191 wrote:

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.

For heavy infantry hunting, maybe. For hunting T7 and T8 targets, absolutely not. They're different tools for very different jobs.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

But I would consider the heavy version for the backfield. Only, if you are willing to invest in them, then why not investing in 5 eliminators with las-fusils?

Because Las Fusil Eliminators are more expensive, cannot pair with an ablative model that shares their range profile, and the loss of a point of strength and a point of AP is extremely significant.

I think you are indeed right about AHB vs. T7 and T8.

As for the HHB vs las fusils eliminators, your points are, again, all compelling.

Maybe I just cannot image leaving 5 more troops in the backfield to provide ablative wounds for HHBs. But I cannot play right now due to the lockdown, and thus mine are just theories and falsifiable hypotheses! Surely, now I am more intrigued by the heavy hellblasters.

Are infiltrators/incursors not good enough on their own merits to warrant running multiple spectrus teams?

I like the fluff and models, but I'm not sure Eliminators are quite good enough... though it might be because I'm used to Eldar Rangers as sniper units (and they're also not worth their points)

Sterling191 wrote:

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.

For heavy infantry hunting, maybe. For hunting T7 and T8 targets, absolutely not. They're different tools for very different jobs.

Perhaps, but it is trivially easy to get full rerolls on both hits and wounds. A general purpose high ROF/decent damage platform can be made to be good vs any target profile.

Niiru wrote:
Are infiltrators/incursors not good enough on their own merits to warrant running multiple spectrus teams?

I like the fluff and models, but I'm not sure Eliminators are quite good enough... though it might be because I'm used to Eldar Rangers as sniper units (and they're also not worth their points)

They're okay, but you're paying a lot for Omni Scramblers and concealed positions. You pay 24 PPM for an intercessor who trades -1 AP and 6" range for auto wounding on 6's which isn't a great comparison and we have the option for Vets on top of that. They're not bad, but I think they're a little too pricey to make up a significant part of your force. In terms of Scramblers, we're at an advantage being able to take 2 bubbles for 15 points less than other marines.

 LunarSol wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Are infiltrators/incursors not good enough on their own merits to warrant running multiple spectrus teams?

I like the fluff and models, but I'm not sure Eliminators are quite good enough... though it might be because I'm used to Eldar Rangers as sniper units (and they're also not worth their points)

They're okay, but you're paying a lot for Omni Scramblers and concealed positions. You pay 24 PPM for an intercessor who trades -1 AP and 6" range for auto wounding on 6's which isn't a great comparison and we have the option for Vets on top of that. They're not bad, but I think they're a little too pricey to make up a significant part of your force. In terms of Scramblers, we're at an advantage being able to take 2 bubbles for 15 points less than other marines.

How would you do it? I'd have thought the 'best use' of the points would be to have:

4x eliminators (snipers or las?) with 1x infiltrator in one combat squad

And then 4x infiltrators plus.... what? a 5th infiltrator? Or is there a better thing to chuck in there? Or would it be better to go with 3x infiltrator and 2x eliminator in each squad? Feels like small units of snipers won't really accomplish much.

I am running 5x eliminators, 4x regular and a helix.

The extra eliminator is worth it for just 6 points since it gets the better rules anyway.

 Leth wrote:
I am running 5x eliminators, 4x regular and a helix.

The extra eliminator is worth it for just 6 points since it gets the better rules anyway.

How do you mix the combat squads though? (assuming you do combat squad them)

Also - How do wargear rules work for models in kill teams? For example, the rules just say you can add "5 of the following", and you pick a terminator or an eliminator or whatever is relevant to the kill team. But what if the terminator wargear says something like "1 terminator can be equipped with a teleport homer". Do you have to follow those limitations? I'd assume yes, but you're kinda picking multiple individual models and choosing their wargear one at a time, and then putting them in a killteam.

Looking closer, the rules actually specify certain wargear changes, in that eradicators can be equipped with heavy melta on a model-by-model basis instead of the entire unit... so I guess they anticipated the question in that case. But what about the things that aren't mentioned.

Seem the teleport homer wording is "this unit can be equipped with one", so it isn't even model-specific. So I'm not even sure how you're giving it to a proteus team, unless the supplement has better wording on the rules (I don't have the supplement yet).

But wording on things like the Incursor haywire mine says "1 incursor can be equipped with 1 mine", and I'm wondering if you can pick two of those incursors, and so you can combat squad them into two separate teams. Not sure if there's any benefit to this, but just trying to figure out the wordings on the rules to see whats available.

I’m not impressed with any of the numbers from las fusil eliminators dealing with gravis units, but a centurion assault squad seems interesting.

3 damage in melee and the artificer bolt cache on the sergeant for a SIA hurricane bolter could be effective.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I’m not impressed with any of the numbers from las fusil eliminators dealing with gravis units, but a centurion assault squad seems interesting.

3 damage in melee and the artificer bolt cache on the sergeant for a SIA hurricane bolter could be effective.

I've considered centurions myself, but I'm not sure how to reliably get them into melee.

You could run Cents just behind a shield wall and put Mantle of Shadow on them. If you keep em cheap without bolters and with flamers they won’t be shooting anyways, so no downside. Just untargetable melee monsters lumbering forward.

Insularum wrote:

Perhaps, but it is trivially easy to get full rerolls on both hits and wounds. A general purpose high ROF/decent damage platform can be made to be good vs any target profile.

It's also trivially easy to get equal rerolls on a cheaper, more resilient and even more deadly after rerolls unit that doesnt blow itself up (4x HB vets, 6x bolter / combiflamer +/- shield vets).

Just because rerolls are available doesnt make a unit a good choice for said rerolls.

Every unit has access to everything that they would be able to take on their main sheet with all the same limitations.

So if it’s 1 per unit? Kill teams can take em. If it’s one per 5 then you need 5 of that model to take one.

Kill teams are not as much of a concern. Don’t mind one eliminator going in the squad with 4 infiltrators. At the end of the day I am still getting all of the special rules per models and for 6 points more I actually get some damage output.

My previous question was basically me wondering whether the Gauntlet or the Comms Array was the better choice, and whether it was possible to end up with both options (unfortunately seems not).

Niiru wrote:
My previous question was basically me wondering whether the Gauntlet or the Comms Array was the better choice, and whether it was possible to end up with both options (unfortunately seems not).

As written the gauntlet and comms array are mutually exclusive (which is silly, but here we are). I personally think the Array edges out ahead, especially for a team you dont plan on squadding down, but the gauntlet is intriguing too. The fact that its a reactive upgrade makes it a little harder to plan around, but telling the first failed save each turn (turn, not battle round) to sod off can potentially stack up over the course of the game.

On the fortis team loadouts, since you can swap out variants within the team, why not make a distance combat squadded KT with 3 stalker BR and 2 hvy plasma incinerators in one, and 3 auto bolter (plus sgt with melee) and 2 assault plasma incinerators in the other. 2 special weapons per squad keeps them a little cheaper while still dishing reasonable firepower.

For Spectrus I think there's advantages to either split and thankfully you can pick on the fly. 3/2 : 3/2 means each sniper has 6 wounds blocking for it, but both teams are in a pretty static position that does have the advantage of covering a good chunk of board space.

1/4 : 5 makes the snipers more vulnerable, but lets the remaining Infiltrators do more than act as meatshield. They can deploy closer, engage freely or take objectives without disrupting the sniper fire. This is probably my preferred configuration in theory, but the other isn't without merit.

As for the 10th man, I think the answer is "not an Infiltrator". At the very least, an Incursor packs more or less the same rules as an infiltrator for 3 less points. I'm not sure if the mine is worth it, but its an option. Otherwise, the 5 Eliminator is just that and probably not bad by any means.