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Ice_can wrote:

Good or bad for the game it's still yet another nerf to the weapon system on a model thats seen a significant amount of changes and still managed to remain firmly in the overcosted stable.

This was the one hope of getting something of a power boost to a very broken faction for the next 6 months, instead it's a giant pile of doesn't look to bad untill you compair to the loyalist marine stuff in the same book.

Yes, it's a de-facto nerf when you're shooting at Titanic targets. The very same nerf that every formerly Macro weapon has taken. Macro as a type was excruciatingly swingy, and removing it makes the game as a whole better.

Tau are one of the armies that I play. I'm acutely aware of the situation they're in. Forge World models not getting to do double damage to giant targets isnt going to change that environment.

Which is fine and should have been reflected in the points for the units.

Like seriously how can someone look at half the Tau entries in the book compaired to the Marine stuff and say looks all balanced and fairness.

Any news on the Achilles Land Raider ? or the CWE Cobra ?

 Type40 wrote:
Any news on the Achilles Land Raider ? or the CWE Cobra ?

Given how heavily 40k relies on LOS-block to compensate for the fact that the damage/durability balance is so far out of whack they're probably unplayable since they have too many wounds to have LOS blocked to them by area terrain.

SecondTime wrote:
Or.... represent science correctly and make Tau weapons far more accurate. I'd make the hammerhead BS 2+ reroll 1s.

By that genius ""logic"" every single Imperial laser should be BS 0+ reroll everything On what planet is metal bullet that can still be deflected by wind, magnetic fields, shields, etc, etc in any way particularly accurate?

If you really wanted to 'represent science correctly' every single tau rail weapon would have -1 to hit rolls (with -2 on smaller platforms) because enormous recoil force acting on barrel and the slightest warp or weakness in the mount sending projectile wildly off target. Sure still want that?

Ice_can wrote:
Like seriously how can someone look at half the Tau entries in the book compaired to the Marine stuff and say looks all balanced and fairness.

Yeah, I have no idea how anyone can look at Tau entries like 'this cheap as chips unit can effortlessly delete shooting from 4000 pts Warlord titan no problem' and other such broken garbage and say it 'looks all balanced and fairness'. Yet it's what all Tau players said on repeat whole 8th edition.

Now they are getting tiny bit of their own medicine back and suddenly the sky is falling, eh?

BrianDavion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Damage on almost everything went up, durability either stayed the same or went down, except for the -1D built into dreads.

GW appears to be absolutely committed to ramping up the lethality of the game even further than it already has been. They seem to like a game where pretty much everything dies as soon as it is shot at by another unit with the right weaponry to target it.

in fairness anti-tank lethaltiy needed a revisit because it was a joke in some cases.

"this here's a vanquisher canon, a single shell from it can put down a tank" *does 1d6 damage when even a rhino has more wounds*

I guess maybe, but never once in the lifespan of 8th did I ever think "gosh, that vehicle is just tooooo durable!"

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Makes BS4+ vanquisher about 4 times as good as battle cannon vs tanks.

Makes good finishing blow shot.

4 times as good as Dd6 battlecanon?

Because we also have that in the same preview.

Well that changes a bit. Missed that one. So about 2.3 times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Is there any sign of escalating durability for things like the Macharius?

If we're back to escalating lethality without improving durability... meh.

I am amused at everyone who hated the Vehicle Damage Chart because you *could* get immobilized or destroyed in one-shot, and here we have a 9-damage gun that used to have similar destructive capability to a Lascannon, once you punched through the armor (which it did rather well).

Eh, a consequence of the new vehicle damage model, I suppose. There's no "armor" to penetrate anymore.

We have been back to escalating lethality without improving durability since 8e.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Any news on the Achilles Land Raider ? or the CWE Cobra ?

Given how heavily 40k relies on LOS-block to compensate for the fact that the damage/durability balance is so far out of whack they're probably unplayable since they have too many wounds to have LOS blocked to them by area terrain.

Bigger terrain pieces with solid walls.

 Irbis wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Or.... represent science correctly and make Tau weapons far more accurate. I'd make the hammerhead BS 2+ reroll 1s.

By that genius ""logic"" every single Imperial laser should be BS 0+ reroll everything On what planet is metal bullet that can still be deflected by wind, magnetic fields, shields, etc, etc in any way particularly accurate?

If you really wanted to 'represent science correctly' every single tau rail weapon would have -1 to hit rolls (with -2 on smaller platforms) because enormous recoil force acting on barrel and the slightest warp or weakness in the mount sending projectile wildly off target. Sure still want that?

Ice_can wrote:
Like seriously how can someone look at half the Tau entries in the book compaired to the Marine stuff and say looks all balanced and fairness.

Yeah, I have no idea how anyone can look at Tau entries like 'this cheap as chips unit can effortlessly delete shooting from 4000 pts Warlord titan no problem' and other such broken garbage and say it 'looks all balanced and fairness'. Yet it's what all Tau players said on repeat whole 8th edition.

Now they are getting tiny bit of their own medicine back and suddenly the sky is falling, eh?

Please, where did the Tau player touched you? It was with a tri-riptide spam list, wasn't it?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Any news on the Achilles Land Raider ? or the CWE Cobra ?

Given how heavily 40k relies on LOS-block to compensate for the fact that the damage/durability balance is so far out of whack they're probably unplayable since they have too many wounds to have LOS blocked to them by area terrain.

The Achilles appears to be 16W now, so it can benefit from that terrain. Cobra has a 5++. Also the Achilles and most of the other marine tanks got Smokescreen, so for 1CP they can be -1 to be hit. That makes them a little bit safer when caught out in the open.

Do we know if any of the FW Tau units got the CORE keyword?

If as I suspect the main buffs (ML/Ethereal/MoW/SP) all go CORE/Characters only then any big suits without core are DOA.

I'd expect core keyword to apply to the troops of R&H , Elysians simply because obsec, etc....

Can anyone make out the rules for the Falchions double volcano cannon? It looks like it is now S14 Ap-4, but I can't make out the damage or number of shots. This would explain why their now the same price as Fellblades, but possibly foreshadow a coming nerf to Shadowswords.

sanguine40k wrote:
Do we know if any of the FW Tau units got the CORE keyword?

If as I suspect the main buffs (ML/Ethereal/MoW/SP) all go CORE/Characters only then any big suits without core are DOA.

Fairly sure nothing has the core keyword, though as a xeno faction i really wouldn't be surprised is we get the necron treatment of core only covers Firewarriors and Pathfinders and nothing else.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can anyone make out the rules for the Falchions double volcano cannon? It looks like it is now S14 Ap-4, but I can't make out the damage or number of shots. This would explain why their now the same price as Fellblades, but possibly foreshadow a coming nerf to Shadowswords.

120", Heavy 2D3, S14, AP-5, D6 (flat six). Blast, rerolling wounds against Titanic units. So half the shots and damage potential from the previous version and now wounds proper tanks on a 3+. Still crushes a Russ equivalent on average, but only scratches things with invulns. Yay. Still, for a 600 points model killing about 200 and a bit in a turn is about right, if only the rest of the game operated at the same level.

Laser destroyer sponsons are at least finally not utterly garbage, given that they now shoot three times with a souped up lascannon.

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can anyone make out the rules for the Falchions double volcano cannon? It looks like it is now S14 Ap-4, but I can't make out the damage or number of shots. This would explain why their now the same price as Fellblades, but possibly foreshadow a coming nerf to Shadowswords.

120", Heavy 2D3, S14, AP-5, D6 (flat six). Blast, rerolling wounds against Titanic units. So half the shots and damage potential from the previous version and now wounds proper tanks on a 3+. Still crushes a Russ equivalent on average, but only scratches things with invulns. Yay. Still, for a 600 points model killing about 200 and a bit in a turn is about right, if only the rest of the game operated at the same level.

Laser destroyer sponsons are at least finally not utterly garbage, given that they now shoot three times with a souped up lascannon.

So considerably less effective against a Castellan but way more vulnerable to the knight's guns due to the loss of T9, but for only 35 points less. Typical. At least they kept their AP-5, and at that price I wouldn't feel stupid getting one as a sister tank to my Fellblade. And of course it costs 1cp more than the knight, "because".

Still, if these stats are ported over to the Shadowsword with half the shots....OUCH. Guard players won't be happy.

Edit: So what exactly are laser destroyers now? I can make out Dd3+3. And they still don't have a model for those, so that kills the whole "no model no rules" explanation for the loss of all the unique weapons for csm vehicles. My double butcher cannon contemptor I've had since 7th is now illegal, and I have to rip the havoc launcher, which has also been there since 7th, off of my Fellblade. Damn it gw.

the_scotsman wrote:
A few interesting features to note about IA Compendium that could indicate changes coming down the pipe for various factions.
...
4) looks like all Custode "Bolt" weapons are getting bumped up to at worst D3 damage, usually Flat 2, though Custodes are not seeing any kind of statline improvements. Guess you just have to close your eyes and imagine real hard that Sv3+ - Sv2+ accounts for any physiological difference between a primaris marine wearing fancy gravy boy armor and an Adeptus Custode.
...

The bolt cannon on the Caladius is still at D1 for what ever reason. Custodes really need some thing to keep them a part from beeing just golden space marines. I really hoped that we would see something like that in this book. Well i am glad custodes didn't get nerfed into the ground like the Levi dread but i want more than just not getting nerfed. I really hope GW will changes custodes so that they are very different from marines and not like just a notch better.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can anyone make out the rules for the Falchions double volcano cannon? It looks like it is now S14 Ap-4, but I can't make out the damage or number of shots. This would explain why their now the same price as Fellblades, but possibly foreshadow a coming nerf to Shadowswords.

120", Heavy 2D3, S14, AP-5, D6 (flat six). Blast, rerolling wounds against Titanic units. So half the shots and damage potential from the previous version and now wounds proper tanks on a 3+. Still crushes a Russ equivalent on average, but only scratches things with invulns. Yay. Still, for a 600 points model killing about 200 and a bit in a turn is about right, if only the rest of the game operated at the same level.

Laser destroyer sponsons are at least finally not utterly garbage, given that they now shoot three times with a souped up lascannon.

So considerably less effective against a Castellan but way more vulnerable to the knight's guns due to the loss of T9, but for only 35 points less. Typical. At least they kept their AP-5, and at that price I wouldn't feel stupid getting one as a sister tank to my Fellblade. And of course it costs 1cp more than the knight, "because".

Still, if these stats are ported over to the Shadowsword with half the shots....OUCH. Guard players won't be happy.

Edit: So what exactly are laser destroyers now? I can make out Dd3+3. And they still don't have a model for those, so that kills the whole "no model no rules" explanation for the loss of all the unique weapons for csm vehicles. My double butcher cannon contemptor I've had since 7th is now illegal, and I have to rip the havoc launcher, which has also been there since 7th, off of my Fellblade. Damn it gw.

Laser Destroyer is a 36" Heavy 3, S10, AP-4, DD3+3 gun for +10 points over the quad lascannon.

The butcher cannon Contemptors are still okay as autocannons. Havocs are indeed gone from all machines, though I guess you could just count it as a pintle mounted Heavy Bolter on the Fellblade.

 Sherrypie wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Can anyone make out the rules for the Falchions double volcano cannon? It looks like it is now S14 Ap-4, but I can't make out the damage or number of shots. This would explain why their now the same price as Fellblades, but possibly foreshadow a coming nerf to Shadowswords.

120", Heavy 2D3, S14, AP-5, D6 (flat six). Blast, rerolling wounds against Titanic units. So half the shots and damage potential from the previous version and now wounds proper tanks on a 3+. Still crushes a Russ equivalent on average, but only scratches things with invulns. Yay. Still, for a 600 points model killing about 200 and a bit in a turn is about right, if only the rest of the game operated at the same level.

Laser destroyer sponsons are at least finally not utterly garbage, given that they now shoot three times with a souped up lascannon.

So considerably less effective against a Castellan but way more vulnerable to the knight's guns due to the loss of T9, but for only 35 points less. Typical. At least they kept their AP-5, and at that price I wouldn't feel stupid getting one as a sister tank to my Fellblade. And of course it costs 1cp more than the knight, "because".

Still, if these stats are ported over to the Shadowsword with half the shots....OUCH. Guard players won't be happy.

Edit: So what exactly are laser destroyers now? I can make out Dd3+3. And they still don't have a model for those, so that kills the whole "no model no rules" explanation for the loss of all the unique weapons for csm vehicles. My double butcher cannon contemptor I've had since 7th is now illegal, and I have to rip the havoc launcher, which has also been there since 7th, off of my Fellblade. Damn it gw.

Laser Destroyer is a 36" Heavy 3, S10, AP-4, DD3+3 gun for +10 points over the quad lascannon.

The butcher cannon Contemptors are still okay as autocannons. Havocs are indeed gone from all machines, though I guess you could just count it as a pintle mounted Heavy Bolter on the Fellblade.

Thanks! Yeah, autocannons are probably what all my Butchers will be now. As for the Fellblade, I'll probably swap out the havoc launcher for a multi-melta, as I see that's an option now. Still hoping they'll up the AE shells damage in the FAQ when they remove its transport capacity, as the boost to the HE shells means they're just better against most targets now, completely removing the point of the two profiles. Dropping the surcharge of 1CP over every other LOW in the game besides the other legion super heavys would be nice as well. If they did those two things I'd be 100% happy with the changes to the Fellblade.

 nordsturmking wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
A few interesting features to note about IA Compendium that could indicate changes coming down the pipe for various factions.
...
4) looks like all Custode "Bolt" weapons are getting bumped up to at worst D3 damage, usually Flat 2, though Custodes are not seeing any kind of statline improvements. Guess you just have to close your eyes and imagine real hard that Sv3+ - Sv2+ accounts for any physiological difference between a primaris marine wearing fancy gravy boy armor and an Adeptus Custode.
...

The bolt cannon on the Caladius is still at D1 for what ever reason. Custodes really need some thing to keep them a part from beeing just golden space marines. I really hoped that we would see something like that in this book. Well i am glad custodes didn't get nerfed into the ground like the Levi dread but i want more than just not getting nerfed. I really hope GW will changes custodes so that they are very different from marines and not like just a notch better.

Well to be fair they DO have a drastically different playstyle, even compared to melee Marines, and they have the sorta style where they don't need any Captains to babysit since they always hit on a 2+, shooting or melee. More independence away from combos is a playstyle in of itself I'd wager.

Aspect Warriors have to be core.
If they aren't what is left?
Guardians, jetbikes and rangers?

 dan2026 wrote:
Aspect Warriors have to be core.
If they aren't what is left?
Guardians, jetbikes and rangers?

I think you mean Guardians, jetbikes would be a big ask.

Welcome to core the stealth nerf to xeno codex's.

Ice_can wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Aspect Warriors have to be core.
If they aren't what is left?
Guardians, jetbikes and rangers?

I think you mean Guardians, jetbikes would be a big ask.

Welcome to core the stealth nerf to xeno codex's.

If Spectres were indeed not given Core thats really not good for Eldar. Not that I don't mind Eldar players being put down a peg but GWs terrible writing has made me not care at this point. They need to hire new people.

Anyone seen what the phantom titan is like?

All I've seen is talk of the changes to revenants.

Also, do void shields still only work against ranged weapons, or is their new wound pool mechanic against all attacks?

It would pretty funny if holofields became ranged only and void shields shifted to all attack types....

Just to clarify, is the Macharius still a LOW?

Is it me or did the shadow spectre exarch not get a power? I haven't been able to see it on any leaks.

Irylith giving reroll 1s to spectres bypasses core. But then you need to take irylith (not that he seems bad as a beat-stick with 3x Str8 -3 flat 3 damage at BS 2)

GW is determined not let any eldar unit have more than 4 attacks though.. Just why.. GW .. why..

Wraith seer compared to SM dreads is straight up nerf.. Ill take damage reduction over pathetic ignores -1 ap anyday lol.
Wraith seer wasn't durable at all with 12 wounds in 8th without ynnari relics. And he wont be any more durable now with 9W...

 Argive wrote:
Is it me or did the shadow spectre exarch not get a power? I haven't been able to see it on any leaks.

Irylith giving reroll 1s to spectres bypasses core. But then you need to take irylith (not that he seems bad as a beat-stick with 3x Str8 -3 flat 3 damage at BS 2)

GW is determined not have any eldar unit more than 4 atatcks though.. Just why.. GW .. why..

Wraith seer compared to SM dreads is straight up nerf.. Ill take damage reduction over pathetic ignores -1 ap anyday lol.

Because a pheonix lord having the same number of attacks as *checks notes* a basic chainsword intercessor sergeant (as long as he's not on the charge!) makes...sense...fluff?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just to clarify, is the Macharius still a LOW?

Yep

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium or from this document to
be from the Death Guard Legion (excluding Hellforged
Rapier Battery and Chaos Hellwright units). Such units also
gain the Bubonic Astartes keyword and can be from one of
the seven Plague Companies, and so also gain the <Plague
Company> keyword.

So this tells us that there'll be a "Bubonic Astartes" keyword for DG as well as a "Plague Company" keyword in the new codex.
This might imply subfaction rules for the plague companies, too. Right now they only got Stratagems, warlord traits and a relic.
This also means that there'll probably be less cross-faction abilities with the CSM codex, since we aren't Heretic Astartes anymore. But I must admit I'm not sure if there were actually stratagems in CSM-codex left for DG to use in a soup.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium or from this document to
be from the Death Guard Legion (excluding Hellforged
Rapier Battery and Chaos Hellwright units). Such units also
gain the Bubonic Astartes keyword and can be from one of
the seven Plague Companies, and so also gain the <Plague
Company> keyword.

So this tells us that there'll be a "Bubonic Astartes" keyword for DG as well as a "Plague Company" keyword in the new codex.
This might imply subfaction rules for the plague companies, too. Right now they only got Stratagems, warlord traits and a relic.
This also means that there'll probably be less cross-faction abilities with the CSM codex, since we aren't Heretic Astartes anymore. But I must admit I'm not sure if there were actually stratagems in CSM-codex left for DG to use in a soup.

not stratagems, but the psychic powers were heavily used (warptime especially)

Abaddon303 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium or from this document to
be from the Death Guard Legion (excluding Hellforged
Rapier Battery and Chaos Hellwright units). Such units also
gain the Bubonic Astartes keyword and can be from one of
the seven Plague Companies, and so also gain the <Plague
Company> keyword.

So this tells us that there'll be a "Bubonic Astartes" keyword for DG as well as a "Plague Company" keyword in the new codex.
This might imply subfaction rules for the plague companies, too. Right now they only got Stratagems, warlord traits and a relic.
This also means that there'll probably be less cross-faction abilities with the CSM codex, since we aren't Heretic Astartes anymore. But I must admit I'm not sure if there were actually stratagems in CSM-codex left for DG to use in a soup.

not stratagems, but the psychic powers were heavily used (warptime especially)

Ah, you're right. Forgot about that one. Never got to use them that way. With how the detachments work in 9th I guess that wasn't viable anyway anymore? Guess we'll see.