Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 794111 10994182 wrote:

Karol, if you think dodging a LASER BEAM is easier then dodging a metal projectile (explosive or not) you proably need to pay more attention in your science classes...

Tell one friend to take a laser pointer and 20 other to start throwing stones at you, then come back and tell us what was easier to dodge. Of course anything that fragments is harder to dodge, that is why we have fragmentation grenades, barrages, mines etc

You would need to be less of a superhuman to dodge the 20 stones than to dodge the light, its basic physics.
Unless being capable of moving faster than 299 792 458 m/s AND having even faster reflexes is easier than dodging a stone that goes 100mph (assuming your friends throwing it are professionnal baseball players).

The reason we use fragmentation is because A : we don't have lasguns yet and B: their job is to clear large areas in one shot.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 794111 10994182 wrote:

Karol, if you think dodging a LASER BEAM is easier then dodging a metal projectile (explosive or not) you proably need to pay more attention in your science classes...

Tell one friend to take a laser pointer and 20 other to start throwing stones at you, then come back and tell us what was easier to dodge. Of course anything that fragments is harder to dodge, that is why we have fragmentation grenades, barrages, mines etc

Karol, the world record for a thrown baseball (a reasonably fair comparsion to a thrown rock) is 105.1 miles per hour, a laser pointer's beam travels at somewhere along the lines of 670,616,629 .

you DO realize Lasers travel at, quite literally, the speed of light right?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


You would need to be less of a superhuman to dodge the 20 stones than to dodge the light, its basic physics.
Unless being capable of moving faster than 299 792 458 m/s AND having even faster reflexes is easier than dodging a stone that goes 100mph (assuming your friends throwing it are professionnal baseball players).

The reason we use fragmentation is because A : we don't have lasguns yet and B: their job is to clear large areas in one shot.

We don't need laser guns to check. have you done sports in your life? because I will intreduce you to this novel idea of human speed vs projectiles like punchs or fast moving balls. In all cases the human brain and body is too slow to properly react to them. That is why you dodge or move before the projectile is actualy thrown at you, same with punchs or grips. In combat, you zig zag before someone shots at you. If you try dodge after you seen or heard a shot, then all you can do is to tank the blow.

again take a laser pointer and try to get a good hit on someone trying to zig zag in a uncontroled patern, when you can't go "full auto" with it. And then try dodging and exploding bag of flour. The laster pointer is "easier" to dodge. Heck crossbow bolts are easier to dodge then projectiles from mud catapults, and I know it, because we played war for 3 years, before someone snitched to our parents, and no one was killed in that time or lost an eye. But dirty we were everytime.

I think its a written rule on dakka that Karol can only have 5 posts before he has to mention sports or grey knights. Make that 3 posts if it also includes Craftworld Eldar power through the editions.

 bullyboy wrote:
I think its a written rule on dakka that Karol can only have 5 posts before he has to mention sports or grey knights. Make that 3 posts if it also includes Craftworld Eldar power through the editions.

apparently Karol is missing the fact that we're talking a race with literally super human reaction speed and is thinking because he literally can't dodge a ball they can't.

Well we can just look at paintball, if you think hitting a fast running humanoid through trees/terain is easy to hit from a distance while you are alos ducking and running for life/cover... I suggest you try it.

Granted those things have crap range are are about as accurate as a musket.. but still. Its quite easy to imagine that shooting at something moving twice as fast could be problematic.

We know eldar have superhuman reflexes.

in 2nd ed you got -1 to hit if the target moved 10" or more, and the eldar were all minimum M5.


I probably sound like a broken record, but this is why I keep saying 2nd ed was really the last time the eldar played like GW describes them.

I'm not talking tricked out exarchs, but the squad sizes of aspects, their cost relative to marines, the power level of their special wargear and the fact that eldar speed was actually reflected as a defensive bonus that was a core part of the rules.


The biggest issue we are running into at the moment is GW keeps (intentionally or not) stripping core rules components that directly reflect eldar speed.

Initiative was a simple way for eldar to reduce incoming attacks by going first. Now they've removed that.

hit modifiers were the next way you could represent eldar speed as defence, but they've capped that.

So what you're left with is rules exceptions and special rules that often lead to shenanigans TM

So the eldar then get trapped in a position where to act like they 'should' they then have to ignore core rules or get special bonuses, reinforcing the stereotype amongst players that eldar are cheesy and annoying.

2nd ed was the last time the core rules encompassed every aspect of the game so the number of exceptions to these was at a minimum.

 Hellebore wrote:
The biggest issue we are running into at the moment is GW keeps (intentionally or not) stripping core rules components that directly reflect eldar speed.

Like many things that end up affecting the Eldar or non-Imperial factions in general, I think it is unintentional because I get the feeling these non-humans factions are an afterthought (if thought of at all) whenever they do such changes. That is why they are always having to then later amend things because there was for example nobody to say in the beginning “Wait a minute, this will cause xyz”

A case in point might be how for example in Apocaypse several editions ago, Destroyer strength weapons were written to ignore invulnerable saves...seemingly without awareness of Eldar Titan holo-fields being invulnerable saves, making all Eldar Titans hideously vulnerable to any Imperial Titan. Then belatedly the holo-field had to be rewritten as a separate class of save that was not negated by Destroyer weapons.

If GW does make a wraith tree then they're going to need to make some sort of wraith troop model or move wraithblade/guard to the troop section of the rules. Maybe treat them like the specialized CSM elite units that become troops if the warlord is of the same mark.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If GW does make a wraith tree then they're going to need to make some sort of wraith troop model or move wraithblade/guard to the troop section of the rules. Maybe treat them like the specialized CSM elite units that become troops if the warlord is of the same mark.

Nope, just do what they are doing with Dark Angels Ravenwing and Deathwing. Make wraithguard and blades obsec in specific detachments. Don't need to be Troops.

Same difference.

Tyel wrote:
It will be unpopular, but I'd prefer the general primarisification of expensive models.

Harlequins suggest that yes, you can balance reasonably expensive but fragile models by having minuses to hit and wound and solid invuls. But I sort of feel that's their gimmick. I don't think Eldar should just get get a 5++ "cos their fast". Calling it a dodge save doesn't really change the mechanics of it.

I just think going "yeah, Aspect warriors are basically Space Marines, they get 2 wounds, Exarchs can have 3" will allow a much easier balancing of 40k over all, rather than this rather awkward scenario of "Marines get 2 wounds, the Xenos factions will have to sort of simulate that with high toughness, invuls, FNPs, minuses to hit etc to recognise the fact they have models in the teens (or more) of points with just one wound".

I hear you. It just gets a little weird that a krak grenade would suddenly become more effective at killing a space elf than a frag grenade. Similarly, something like a powerfist (sluggish but hard-hitting) would be better at taking down an eldar than a relatively quick power sword. That's why I like the idea of giving them a save that happens after armor and before FNP.

That said, simply getting a wound increase wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. If GW eventually really embraced the "hit point" thing and raised wounds and damage across the game, damage might feel more abstract and make this a non-issue too. Like, maybe marines end up being 5 wounds, eldar 3 or 4, and humans 1 with bolters being damage 2 or something. We could all unfocus our eyes and go, "Yeah, the eldar speed/training is reflected in those extra hit points compared to a guardsman."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:

The biggest issue we are running into at the moment is GW keeps (intentionally or not) stripping core rules components that directly reflect eldar speed.

Initiative was a simple way for eldar to reduce incoming attacks by going first. Now they've removed that.

hit modifiers were the next way you could represent eldar speed as defence, but they've capped that.

So what you're left with is rules exceptions and special rules that often lead to shenanigans TM

So the eldar then get trapped in a position where to act like they 'should' they then have to ignore core rules or get special bonuses, reinforcing the stereotype amongst players that eldar are cheesy and annoying.

Totally agree. I started playing in 5th edition. Eldar felt "fast" from between 5th and 7th with their initiative stats, lots of move-shoot-move, and skimmers being a relative rarity that could hit the gas and zip across the table. In 8th, it felt like their speed was harder to find (mostly being a thing on flyers and the single unit you used LFR on each turn), but at least you could say that the army overall was hard to hit. Now you can't even say that. :(

I do wonder if switching autarchs and a few psychic powers over to being more mobility-related would help. Like if the autarch was giving out Fire and Fade every turn or if warlock sergeants could reliably spread arounnd the Drain and Conceal spells cost-effectively and reliably.

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


You would need to be less of a superhuman to dodge the 20 stones than to dodge the light, its basic physics.
Unless being capable of moving faster than 299 792 458 m/s AND having even faster reflexes is easier than dodging a stone that goes 100mph (assuming your friends throwing it are professionnal baseball players).

The reason we use fragmentation is because A : we don't have lasguns yet and B: their job is to clear large areas in one shot.

We don't need laser guns to check. have you done sports in your life? because I will intreduce you to this novel idea of human speed vs projectiles like punchs or fast moving balls. In all cases the human brain and body is too slow to properly react to them. That is why you dodge or move before the projectile is actualy thrown at you, same with punchs or grips. In combat, you zig zag before someone shots at you. If you try dodge after you seen or heard a shot, then all you can do is to tank the blow.

again take a laser pointer and try to get a good hit on someone trying to zig zag in a uncontroled patern, when you can't go "full auto" with it. And then try dodging and exploding bag of flour. The laster pointer is "easier" to dodge. Heck crossbow bolts are easier to dodge then projectiles from mud catapults, and I know it, because we played war for 3 years, before someone snitched to our parents, and no one was killed in that time or lost an eye. But dirty we were everytime.

yeah, i've done wrestling in high school, right before my wargaming group litterally smashed my miniatures because i dared to ask them to not play OP lists because my army was botton tier. When i was doing wrestling, i used to smash people's bones so i could hit them with the rocks i was throwing at them.

Dude, at some point you just come off as a massive troll. Assuming both the rocks and laser have good aim, you're gonna dodge way more rocks than you will lasers.

Given the three main streams of the craftworld war machines (guardians, wraiths, aspects), there is plenty of capacity to grow what's available to them.

Aspects can get different levels of exarch mastery as characters and squad leaders, you can have veteran aspect warrior squads who have trod that aspect multiple times and are REALLY good at it.

You can add new aspects (or different aspect focus weapons for existing aspects - biting blade scorpions, shuriken cannon reapers etc)


You can create more guardian command structures, with differing levels of autarch in training as well as other guardian squad types.

You can add new spirit seer ranks, you can add new types of wraith lord/guard.

You can bring back the ghost assassin etc, having smaller, faster and lighter wraithguard units.


when you consider each Host a force in its own right, it leads you to natural design choices for new units.

I think bone singing and vehicles should be a thing.. I know we are not allowed it because marines have techmarines so we cant have nice things as they need to be unique... But still..

Gosh I wish bonesingers made a return. There could be a whole new separate psyker discipline and wraith/vehicle focus.

 Hellebore wrote:

Aspects can get different levels of exarch mastery as characters and squad leaders, you can have veteran aspect warrior squads who have trod that aspect multiple times and are REALLY good at it.

...


You can create more guardian command structures, with differing levels of autarch in training as well as other guardian squad types.

You can add new spirit seer ranks, you can add new types of wraith lord/guard.

Can you make those differing skill levels distinctive enough to be interesting and not render each other redundant though? What do "veteran scorpions" look like compared to normal scorpions? How do we make both feel like they're worth their points and not just have one unit be a less efficient version of the other? Ditto for the autarchs and spirit seers and so on. Sincere question. I'm open to it. I've just never looked at the crossover between assault marines and vanguard vets and felt that both were good options at the same time. Ditto captains and chapter masters.

You can add new aspects (or different aspect focus weapons for existing aspects - biting blade scorpions, shuriken cannon reapers etc)

Could be cool. I'd argue that it might be a big enough symbolic departure from the parent aspect to technically be an offshoot aspect rather than "real" scorpoins/reapers/etc., but could be cool. Again, the trick here is to make sure that biting blade scorpions aren't just straight up better or worse than normal scorpions.

You can bring back the ghost assassin etc, having smaller, faster and lighter wraithguard units.

I'm chuckling at the mental image of a "sneaky" wraith guard bumping into walls, falling over, and randomly freezing up due to spirit sight issues. XD




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
I think bone singing and vehicles should be a thing.. I know we are not allowed it because marines have techmarines so we cant have nice things as they need to be unique... But still..

Gosh I wish bonesingers made a return. There could be a whole new separate psyker discipline and wraith/vehicle focus.

Just in case you didn't know, we did/do have a bonesinger option. He's just in legends at the moment. I'm sort of torn on making them more of a thing on the battlefield. It could be a bit awkward in terms of fluff if bonesingers suddenly start skewering their foes on wraithbone thorns and bone-bending new cover into existence mid-battle. Maybe they could be a piece of wargear for vehicles that lets them autoheal a wound each turn? Or maybe you create a new fortification with a bonesinger inside? The fluff being that, while eldar don't really hold ground much, they can have their bonesingers whip up impromptu defensive positions if given a few hours.

 Argive wrote:
I think bone singing and vehicles should be a thing.. I know we are not allowed it because marines have techmarines so we cant have nice things as they need to be unique... But still..

Gosh I wish bonesingers made a return. There could be a whole new separate psyker discipline and wraith/vehicle focus.

Couldnt bonesingers actually be techmarines + apothecary even? Isn't all eldar armor made of wraithbone?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Same difference.

It's not really though as it means you will have to pay 3CP to run the Vanguard, but the bonus being the wraith units get obsec. That's different than just giving them Troop status (plus rule of 3).
I do hope that happens though, would make wraith based lists somewhat viable.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think bone singing and vehicles should be a thing.. I know we are not allowed it because marines have techmarines so we cant have nice things as they need to be unique... But still..

Gosh I wish bonesingers made a return. There could be a whole new separate psyker discipline and wraith/vehicle focus.

Couldnt bonesingers actually be techmarines + apothecary even? Isn't all eldar armor made of wraithbone?

I don't believe so. 40k lore isn't super consistent, but I believe most (non-wraithguard) armor is made of "psychoplastics" or whatever. Basically space plastic. Their vehicles seem to often have wraithbone components though.

I just think going "yeah, Aspect warriors are basically Space Marines, they get 2 wounds, Exarchs can have 3" will allow a much easier balancing of 40k over all, rather than this rather awkward scenario of "Marines get 2 wounds, the Xenos factions will have to sort of simulate that with high toughness, invuls, FNPs, minuses to hit etc to recognise the fact they have models in the teens (or more) of points with just one wound".

I think the problem lies somewhat in the fact that as physical specimens Harlequins, Drukhari, and Asuryani all get described as physically similar in their capabilities and fitness.

Personally I wouldn't mind Craftworlds being made into the "sturdier" aeldari, especially since they have already been heading there with their wraith units and skimmer vehicles. It would also maybe help them define them from the glasscannon Drukhari and the nimble Harlequin more.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think bone singing and vehicles should be a thing.. I know we are not allowed it because marines have techmarines so we cant have nice things as they need to be unique... But still..

Gosh I wish bonesingers made a return. There could be a whole new separate psyker discipline and wraith/vehicle focus.

Couldnt bonesingers actually be techmarines + apothecary even? Isn't all eldar armor made of wraithbone?

I don't believe so. 40k lore isn't super consistent, but I believe most (non-wraithguard) armor is made of "psychoplastics" or whatever. Basically space plastic. Their vehicles seem to often have wraithbone components though.

Wraithbone IS the psychoplastics you mentionned.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think the problem lies somewhat in the fact that as physical specimens Harlequins, Drukhari, and Asuryani all get described as physically similar in their capabilities and fitness.

Personally I wouldn't mind Craftworlds being made into the "sturdier" aeldari, especially since they have already been heading there with their wraith units and skimmer vehicles. It would also maybe help them define them from the glasscannon Drukhari and the nimble Harlequin more.

This is true, but only if you don't accept a certain aggregate "resilience" is then modelled through toughness/wounds/saves.
Personally I don't see the problem with say a Guardian being T3 5+, and a Dark Reaper being T3/3+ 2 wounds - recognising that he's an aspect warrior, so more resilient than a guardian, and wearing significantly heavier armour.

I don't think its going to happen though, because we have the revealed Incubi statline. At say 16ish points, its pretty soft on defence but fights like a unit costing double its points. (Bladeguard/Skorpekhs). Which arguably isn't good for the game, because it just exacerbates this trend that all factions should be glasshammers.

Which has always sort of been a problem Aeldari in general. "Eldar are the glasshammer army." "Wait, Dark Eldar are even more glass hammer." "Wait, Harlequins are the glasshammeriest of them all!!". At least Ynnari have chicken.

I know it's a Necron thing, but what if we upped Eldar durability by giving them something like:

Retreat and Regroup:

At the end of a turn where an Aeldari unit is not engaged in melee and has taken casualties, you may remove that unit from play. If you do mark that unit's location with an Aeldari regroup token and note the number of models removed and the number of units removed as casualties this turn.

At the start of your next movement phase roll a die for each casualty that was noted down, on a 5+ return that model plus the number of models removed from play to the table within 6" of the regroup token. Models setup on the table in this way may not be within 1" of an enemy unit.

-----

I know it's more complicated than most 9th edition rules and is very similar to Reanimation Protocols but it's a good way to represent that a 'casualty' may have dodged enemy fire and could rejoin the battle if given time to regroup; It also allows for movement shenanigans. The downside is that the enemy gets some fairly easy counter play but that's where playtesting would come into the mix.

Yes I do own said bonesinger and have used him all the time in 8th ed until he got legended... :(

I dont feel comfortable with playing legend stuff in current ed format. It just feels wrong.
The big plys for him was that he was an elite and a character. He was sort of a smite battery but then his random heals plus tears of isha strategem could regen up to 6 wounds (4 on average) on a wraithseer/wraithlord which was fun. By no means is it OP or broken and usualy you'd just dot he smite but he is a fun unit. Its a shame its not supported.

I believe the bonesinger are the remnants of what the pre-fall eldar did in terms of crafting so they are the guys that do all of the repairs, contstructs and vehicles (which are all wraithbone things).

The guardian armor I believe is different kind of tech.

It would be awesome to have that in the codex.

The Eldar were described as using psychoplastics in all their engineering, so all their construction was psychically able.

Wraithbone was one type of psychoplastic, which was often the core of a construction as it's the most psychically sensitive and tough. Craftworlds are build around a core of wraithbone which is where the Infinity circuit lies. It connects all parts of the craftworld so psychic communication and soul transfer can occur anywhere.

GW started flanderising wraithbone to be all psychoplastic and kept describing all things made from wraithbone.

But originally wraithbone was a rare and valuable material.

Possibly because "psychoplastic" sounds silly and it's easier to copyright "wraithbone".

"Psychoplastic" doesn't sound silly at all and is an apt description for a class of materials that exhibit plasticity in response to psychic forces.

Wraithbone is a psychoplastic but not all psychoplastics are wraithbone. Just as iron is a metal but not all metals are iron.

Question - if wraithbone is such a major part of Eldar construction, why do so many paint schemes seem to involve metals for weapons instead of bone?

Because Eldar like metal paint? Because some Eldar weave metal into their wraithbone? Because "bone" is alliterative, not literal?

We all know the reason is "it looks cool".

I wasn't under the impression that wraithbone is literal bone tissue. I mean, it's basically solidified psychic energy.