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 Hellebore wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I will have to disagree I think that would make a huuuge impact to how reliable and killy these are..

The alpha strike potential in these units would be very high.

Imagine Dark reapers at BS2+ with inescapable accuracy getting a throw away reroll 1's from skytarch... That's worse than SM CM rerolls cheese... as its very close to 100% hitting.

Fire dragon also would suddenly look interesting - 5x Bs2+ fusion shots at 115 pts jumping out of a falcoln or webway ? with no need for troops.. thats pretty decent spend to fill the elite slot. Again chuck in an autarch for reroll 1's here and there and a doom and thats a lot of damage. Yes it all dies if soemthing looks at it but at least the cannon of the glass cannon part would be vaguely true.

Add some cheekey strategems ala Embark on transport after firing/ JSJ or something and you can see a very flowy mobile and lethal army on the table top.

I do agree aspect and heavy aspect armour needs to do more. Its just not enough currently.
a 2+ & -1 to wound would be decent.

yes I think reapers and hunters would be improved more than others. reapers should be 3-6 per unit though.

So I'd go something like:

Banshees
M8 WS2+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
M8 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W3 A4 Ld9 Sv3+

Scorpions
M7 WS2+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A3 Ld8 Sv2+
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W3 A4 Ld9 Sv2+

Avengers
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld8 Sv3+
M7 WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W3 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

Guardians
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld8 Sv4+


Autarch
M7 WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W5 A4 Ld9 Sv3+

Exarch Shrine Lord
M8 WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W4 A5 Ld9 Sv2+

Phoenix Lord
M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv2+












Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Attacks are one important factor but not the only one.

eldar could have 10A each, but if they die before they can use them they're no good.


It's going to be a tough buy if they do nothing about survivability of the T3 W1 models.

Eldar survivability is called a Wave Serpent or Falcon. They really can't be anything other than T3 1W, they're elves.

Right, so the fact that an exarch in 2nd ed was S4 T4 is irrelevant? That their bodies fuse to their armour and eventually they're just a walking suit of armour with souls swirling in them? Or that Farseers get tougher the older they get because they literally turn to crystal?

Or that Exarchs in 2nd ed had 2 wounds (as much as chaplain and librarian characters and only 1 less than a marine captain) could take +1 Toughness as an exarch warrior power which describes the exarchs as simply being 'incredibly resilient', making them Toughness 5?

Did you know that the eldar had 3 characters with Toughness 6 in 2nd ed, more than all the marine codices combined?

Karandras, Maugan and Eldrad were all T6, eldrad because he was old and crystal, karandras and maugan because they both had the Tough warrior power. This meant that that power swords (s5) only wounded them on 5+.


Kung fu magic psyker powers mean that the eldar are far more than just T3 elves.

Yup. Tyranid Warriors used to be s5 t5 too, but can't have them be stronger than Astartes, they get insecure...

 Hellebore wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Attacks are one important factor but not the only one.

eldar could have 10A each, but if they die before they can use them they're no good.


It's going to be a tough buy if they do nothing about survivability of the T3 W1 models.

Eldar survivability is called a Wave Serpent or Falcon. They really can't be anything other than T3 1W, they're elves.

Right, so the fact that an exarch in 2nd ed was S4 T4 is irrelevant? That their bodies fuse to their armour and eventually they're just a walking suit of armour with souls swirling in them? Or that Farseers get tougher the older they get because they literally turn to crystal?

Or that Exarchs in 2nd ed had 2 wounds (as much as chaplain and librarian characters and only 1 less than a marine captain) could take +1 Toughness as an exarch warrior power which describes the exarchs as simply being 'incredibly resilient', making them Toughness 5?

Did you know that the eldar had 3 characters with Toughness 6 in 2nd ed, more than all the marine codices combined?

Karandras, Maugan and Eldrad were all T6, eldrad because he was old and crystal, karandras and maugan because they both had the Tough warrior power. This meant that that power swords (s5) only wounded them on 5+.


Kung fu magic psyker powers mean that the eldar are far more than just T3 elves.

So you'll be pushing for IG Company Commanders, Commissars and Primaris Psykers to move to S4/T4, then?

From what I understand termintors back then were saving on 2d6 on +3, and chaos ones on 2d6 on +2. I fully accept elder to be str 4 and t 4 and aspects being 2W, if that happens.

Karol wrote:
From what I understand termintors back then were saving on 2d6 on +3, and chaos ones on 2d6 on +2. I fully accept elder to be str 4 and t 4 and aspects being 2W, if that happens.

Terminator armor (Imperial or Chaos) was 3+ on 2d6.

The Mark of Khorne gave a 2+ armor save. So a model with Terminator armor and the Mark of Khorne had a 2+ on 2d6. I have the 2nd edition Chaos Codex in front of me and checked this.

However not very enthusiastic about just more S, T, W inflation (though it may be too late for that).

Remember that originally S3 T3 was meant to represent pretty much all normal humanity (and hence also pretty much all Eldar). S4 and T4 was like maybe Arnold Schwarzeneggar in his prime. Yes, I know there was S and T inflation almost immediately and then with the Exarch power Toughness, Exarchs could reach T5 though Exarch powers can be handwaved away as supernatural psychic specialness.

The problem is mechanically the 40k system currently has very few ways to increase survivability beyond saves, T, and W, now that to-hit modifiers are capped.

 Dysartes wrote:


So you'll be pushing for IG Company Commanders, Commissars and Primaris Psykers to move to S4/T4, then?

Sure, because the exarchs still got the ability to be S/T 5 which was higher.

This is the point. 2nd ed reflected the relative differences between armies far better than they do now.


IMO, you could take 2nd ed, make initiative opposed to WS and BS (replacing the shooting and combat mechanics) for hitting purposes, streamline damage dice to d3 and d6s, use the 9th ed vehicle rules and you'd have a really good game.



as I've said before, GW deliberately or not keep removing components of the core rules that directly represent armies like the eldar and tyranids (initiative, modifier caps etc).

So to reflect these things in 9th ed you have to use special rules that create exceptionalism which reinforces how annoying the eldar are, rather than core mechanics everyone is equally affected by but the eldar are naturally better at.

 Hellebore wrote:

So to reflect these things in 9th ed you have to use special rules that create exceptionalism which reinforces how annoying the eldar are, rather than core mechanics everyone is equally affected by but the eldar are naturally better at.

Special rules exceptionalism is also generally bad because any further changes to other parts of the system may have unforeseen consequences to these special rules, because nobody at GW is paying attention to the exceptions.

I mentioned elsewhere the case of Apocalypse classing holofields as invulnerables, showing the writers forgetting to realize Destroyer weapons ignored invulnerables and forcing a later revision of holofields from invulnerable saves to special holofield saves that were not negated by Destroyer weapons.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:


So you'll be pushing for IG Company Commanders, Commissars and Primaris Psykers to move to S4/T4, then?

Sure, because the exarchs still got the ability to be S/T 5 which was higher.

This is the point. 2nd ed reflected the relative differences between armies far better than they do now.

Yes, but also no - what it had was a fairly fixed set of progression steps from "basic trooper form" up to "major hero form".

M and I were definitely used better to differentiate the speed of races, though. Back in t'day, a Guardsman (and a Space Marine) had M4, while Eldar M values varied from 4 to 6, depending on the unit, with the average probably being 5 - a speed increase of 25% is more meaningful that 16.6%. It was something I was hoping would be reviewed when they reintroduced the stat in 8th, but they kept the baseline of human speed at 6", for some reason - dropping that back down (and adjusting other M values appropriately) immediately makes the table feel bigger, even if you then decide an edition later to shrink the minimum table size so you can sell your own battle mats...

The I stat in 2nd seemed to just get inflated by the Hero progression, rather than whether it makes sense - I'm not sure a Farseer should be I9, for example, especially if the T5 he has is meant to represent him starting to turn into crystal.

And looking through the Eldar 'dex from 2nd ed, none of the Aspect Warriors themselves are anything other than WS/BS4 (3+ in today's money), so if you're wanting to use old stat lines to justify changes, this is one where it doesn't work.

Now, before you jump down my throat, I'll point out that I do think removing I - or a similar stat; I'm a fan of having an Evasion stat to oppose BS, for example - was a mistake, and as I've pointed out above, I think they missed a trick by not reviewing M values coming into 8th and dropping them to be more in line with how they were in 2nd. Everyone having a base move of 6" was one of the things that bugged me in 3rd (and its children).

Equally, as they've not used weapon keywords as well as they could, bringing back the Avatar's immunity to certain weapon types now would be a PITA, compared to just looking for MELTA, PLASMA or FLAME in a weapon's Abilities section. Haven't got my current Eldar 'dex to hand, but giving the Wailing Doom back its shooting attack could be cool (if it doesn't have one).

And definitely increase the range on Shuricats - not sure whether to go to 18" or back to the classic 24", but the short-range current weapon makes no sense on Guardians.

 Dysartes wrote:

And definitely increase the range on Shuricats - not sure whether to go to 18" or back to the classic 24", but the short-range current weapon makes no sense on Guardians.

GW have been incredibly stubborn on this one, even though the introduction of Dire Avenger catapults was pretty much admission that the Guardian catapults did not work. Rather than admitting their original error, GW has been resorting to all kludged work-arounds elsewhere (even though they don't address the problem). Maybe if the old M stat of 4 for humans had been re-introduced instead of everything being at 6, then maybe the range would have been a little less of an issue.

Their boosting of Guardian WS and BS to what were previous Aspect Warrior levels again was an attempt to make Guardians useful again, even while the catapult issue remained unaddressed, and it just narrowed the gap further with the Aspect Warriors.

They really should just make catapults 24" again and up the avenger to 30"

 Hellebore wrote:


So to reflect these things in 9th ed you have to use special rules that create exceptionalism which reinforces how annoying the eldar are, rather than core mechanics everyone is equally affected by but the eldar are naturally better at.

Yeah, not like other factions which have hardly any special

Ignore All Modifiers to Attrition
Any squad that starts the game at full strength may split freely into 2 half-sized squads
+1 to Attacks if the unit charged, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention that turn
Any unit that did not move in the movement phase may double their attacks with rapid fire weapons out to maximum range
Your choice of 2 army-wide chapter tactics rules
An additional -1AP on heavy weapons turn 1, Assault and rapid fire weapons turn 2, and your choice of pistols and melee weapons or assault and rapid fire weapons turn 3
Your choice of one of those three categories gaining an additional army-wide special rule benefit on the turns it is active

I mean, compared to simplicity like that, I really wouldn't want to overload people with all the craaAaAaAzy special rules Eldar have, with their 2 army-wide craftworld traits (1 if you choose one of the canonical craftworlds, you know, because they never bothered fixing it) and infantry getting to count as remaining stationary if they advanced except with heavy weapons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:


So you'll be pushing for IG Company Commanders, Commissars and Primaris Psykers to move to S4/T4, then?

Sure, because the exarchs still got the ability to be S/T 5 which was higher.

This is the point. 2nd ed reflected the relative differences between armies far better than they do now.

Yes, but also no - what it had was a fairly fixed set of progression steps from "basic trooper form" up to "major hero form".

M and I were definitely used better to differentiate the speed of races, though. Back in t'day, a Guardsman (and a Space Marine) had M4, while Eldar M values varied from 4 to 6, depending on the unit, with the average probably being 5 - a speed increase of 25% is more meaningful that 16.6%. It was something I was hoping would be reviewed when they reintroduced the stat in 8th, but they kept the baseline of human speed at 6", for some reason - dropping that back down (and adjusting other M values appropriately) immediately makes the table feel bigger, even if you then decide an edition later to shrink the minimum table size so you can sell your own battle mats...

The I stat in 2nd seemed to just get inflated by the Hero progression, rather than whether it makes sense - I'm not sure a Farseer should be I9, for example, especially if the T5 he has is meant to represent him starting to turn into crystal.

And looking through the Eldar 'dex from 2nd ed, none of the Aspect Warriors themselves are anything other than WS/BS4 (3+ in today's money), so if you're wanting to use old stat lines to justify changes, this is one where it doesn't work.

Now, before you jump down my throat, I'll point out that I do think removing I - or a similar stat; I'm a fan of having an Evasion stat to oppose BS, for example - was a mistake, and as I've pointed out above, I think they missed a trick by not reviewing M values coming into 8th and dropping them to be more in line with how they were in 2nd. Everyone having a base move of 6" was one of the things that bugged me in 3rd (and its children).

Equally, as they've not used weapon keywords as well as they could, bringing back the Avatar's immunity to certain weapon types now would be a PITA, compared to just looking for MELTA, PLASMA or FLAME in a weapon's Abilities section. Haven't got my current Eldar 'dex to hand, but giving the Wailing Doom back its shooting attack could be cool (if it doesn't have one).

And definitely increase the range on Shuricats - not sure whether to go to 18" or back to the classic 24", but the short-range current weapon makes no sense on Guardians.

Wailing doom does have a shooting attack, it's *drumroll please* one, single, old style meltagun shot.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:


So to reflect these things in 9th ed you have to use special rules that create exceptionalism which reinforces how annoying the eldar are, rather than core mechanics everyone is equally affected by but the eldar are naturally better at.

Yeah, not like other factions which have hardly any special

Ignore All Modifiers to Attrition
Any squad that starts the game at full strength may split freely into 2 half-sized squads
+1 to Attacks if the unit charged, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention that turn
Any unit that did not move in the movement phase may double their attacks with rapid fire weapons out to maximum range
Your choice of 2 army-wide chapter tactics rules
An additional -1AP on heavy weapons turn 1, Assault and rapid fire weapons turn 2, and your choice of pistols and melee weapons or assault and rapid fire weapons turn 3
Your choice of one of those three categories gaining an additional army-wide special rule benefit on the turns it is active

I mean, compared to simplicity like that, I really wouldn't want to overload people with all the craaAaAaAzy special rules Eldar have, with their 2 army-wide craftworld traits (1 if you choose one of the canonical craftworlds, you know, because they never bothered fixing it) and infantry getting to count as remaining stationary if they advanced except with heavy weapons...

Great how much neater and easier Warhammer is to play these days, isn't it?

 warmaster21 wrote:
They really should just make catapults 24" again and up the avenger to 30"

Ideally, keep both at 24" but up DA cats to Assault 3.

With the way they're designing the new Codexes it's really not out of the realm of possibility that Shuricats are changed.

Generally the changes in the new books are clearly mindful of common complaints and design issues people have/had with the way the old units used to be.

 Bosskelot wrote:
With the way they're designing the new Codexes it's really not out of the realm of possibility that Shuricats are changed.

Generally the changes in the new books are clearly mindful of common complaints and design issues people have/had with the way the old units used to be.

You mean it only took 6 editions to notice a problem with the shuriken catapults?

 Bosskelot wrote:
With the way they're designing the new Codexes it's really not out of the realm of possibility that Shuricats are changed.

Generally the changes in the new books are clearly mindful of common complaints and design issues people have/had with the way the old units used to be.

With the approach they took to Space Marines (release a replacement unit, then fiddle with the stats to change which of its options you want to use from book to book) and Necrons (release a new kit with a different weapon option) you're more likely to see Primaris Guardians or new Guardians with buffed lasblasters to push you to buy different minis rather than fixing the existing stuff, assuming they don't just ignore the issue again.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
With the way they're designing the new Codexes it's really not out of the realm of possibility that Shuricats are changed.

Generally the changes in the new books are clearly mindful of common complaints and design issues people have/had with the way the old units used to be.

With the approach they took to Space Marines (release a replacement unit, then fiddle with the stats to change which of its options you want to use from book to book) and Necrons (release a new kit with a different weapon option) you're more likely to see Primaris Guardians or new Guardians with buffed lasblasters to push you to buy different minis rather than fixing the existing stuff, assuming they don't just ignore the issue again.

You mean like how they gave all the firstborn marines a big boost in the new book?

Umbros wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
With the way they're designing the new Codexes it's really not out of the realm of possibility that Shuricats are changed.

Generally the changes in the new books are clearly mindful of common complaints and design issues people have/had with the way the old units used to be.

With the approach they took to Space Marines (release a replacement unit, then fiddle with the stats to change which of its options you want to use from book to book) and Necrons (release a new kit with a different weapon option) you're more likely to see Primaris Guardians or new Guardians with buffed lasblasters to push you to buy different minis rather than fixing the existing stuff, assuming they don't just ignore the issue again.

You mean like how they gave all the firstborn marines a big boost in the new book?

Enough of a buff to make Intercessors slightly less of an upgrade over Tacticals, yes, and then introducing new T5/3W Troops with S5 guns and melee Troops to compete with both. In the arena of Troops, at least, the buff to the Firstborn is a half-assed way of making them slightly less pointless while giving them an excuse to push firepower creep in other areas, not a serious attempt to fix their problems.

 bullyboy wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
They really should just make catapults 24" again and up the avenger to 30"

Ideally, keep both at 24" but up DA cats to Assault 3.

I'd add that Shuriken Catapults should probably be -1 AP to reflect their alien tech better. For an advanced race with superior firepower it is weird to have a weapon that is technically just an inferior bolter for the most part.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
They really should just make catapults 24" again and up the avenger to 30"

Ideally, keep both at 24" but up DA cats to Assault 3.

I'd add that Shuriken Catapults should probably be -1 AP to reflect their alien tech better. For an advanced race with superior firepower it is weird to have a weapon that is technically just an inferior bolter for the most part.

they could roll that extra -1ap within 12" trait into all shuriken weapons would be nice. or make the ap scale the closer you get to the target instead of fishing for 6's but I doubt we would see something like that, which would probably lead into too many measuring arguments.


personally I hope we see a complete model line redone like with sisters, except not with a giant price inflation. one of the main things that have kept me out of making an eldar army despire how much i like the aspect warriors are how god awful and old the sculpts are.. but that probably wont be until 15th edition at the earliest

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'd add that Shuriken Catapults should probably be -1 AP to reflect their alien tech better. For an advanced race with superior firepower it is weird to have a weapon that is technically just an inferior bolter for the most part.

24" assault 3, shot twice with -1AP and strenght would be kind of a strong on units with good resiliance and high BS. Specialy if they had the inv from the shimmer shield and some sort of dodge save stacking with 2Ws.

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'd add that Shuriken Catapults should probably be -1 AP to reflect their alien tech better. For an advanced race with superior firepower it is weird to have a weapon that is technically just an inferior bolter for the most part.

24" assault 3, shot twice with -1AP and strenght would be kind of a strong on units with good resiliance and high BS. Specialy if they had the inv from the shimmer shield and some sort of dodge save stacking with 2Ws.

Good resilience? Dodge save? High BS?

are we talking about Eldar right now?

BS3+, T3, 4+ ? With an invuln on the exarch ONLY if you forfeit its gun?
And dodge saves do nothing except let your opponent's heavy/assault weapons move/advance with no penalty.

And S4 -1 1 shots is nothing, thats what Intercessors get on their base guns... at 30" instead of 24".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Umbros wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
With the way they're designing the new Codexes it's really not out of the realm of possibility that Shuricats are changed.

Generally the changes in the new books are clearly mindful of common complaints and design issues people have/had with the way the old units used to be.

With the approach they took to Space Marines (release a replacement unit, then fiddle with the stats to change which of its options you want to use from book to book) and Necrons (release a new kit with a different weapon option) you're more likely to see Primaris Guardians or new Guardians with buffed lasblasters to push you to buy different minis rather than fixing the existing stuff, assuming they don't just ignore the issue again.

You mean like how they gave all the firstborn marines a big boost in the new book?

Enough of a buff to make Intercessors slightly less of an upgrade over Tacticals, yes, and then introducing new T5/3W Troops with S5 guns and melee Troops to compete with both. In the arena of Troops, at least, the buff to the Firstborn is a half-assed way of making them slightly less pointless while giving them an excuse to push firepower creep in other areas, not a serious attempt to fix their problems.

Their core statline and nearly every single possible weapon upgrade they have got tweaks! How can you call that half assed? Heres the list of weapons tacs can take that saw changes:

Flamer
Melta
Grav
Plasma gun
Grav pistol
Plasma pistol
Power sword
Power maul
Power axe
Power fist
Thunder hammer
Heavy boltgun
Grav cannon
Multi melta

The tactical marine weapon list got more stats changed than the adeptus mechanicus codex from the index.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drukhari, Eldar, Tau, and post-codex necrons all have inferior technology to the imperium now and its hilarious.

Necrons have massive "HEAT RAYS" mounted on their giant spider walkers that amount to one (1) multimedia.

Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

Edit:

Just to expand on this line of thought....

Warlocks could have an aura that allows evasion re-rolls of 1 for everyone within 6 inches. Fluff would explained by the psychic attunement that Warlocks have with the ebbs and flow of battle and enhance those around them.

Farseers could have a psychic power that adds +1 to the evasion save. And evasion would stack with all the other saves but given that invul saves are not all that common for craftworld eldar I don't see it being too over the top, even with Phoenix Lords that do have an invul.

Evasion would be for infantry and bikes only, but would have a strat to give to a skimmer type vehicle, not a monster

And it would make sense that Dark Eldar do not have this ability as they are not psychically attuned at all... (meaning the Dark Eldar book is already written so it doesn't have to be explained why they don't get it)

SaganGree wrote:
Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

That is statistically indistinguishable from an invuln save (except if you're saying you could take it IN ADDITION TO an invuln save or any normal save).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

That is statistically indistinguishable from an invuln save (except if you're saying you could take it IN ADDITION TO an invuln save or any normal save).

That is exactly what I am suggesting... given the fact that the save would be taken before the wound roll is made. And given that there are more dice to save against hits, while similar to an invul, it wouldn't be as efficient because the attacker can use strats, rerolls, etc more effectively as the defense would already have been rolled. It's actually more similar to a preemptive FNP

SaganGree wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

That is statistically indistinguishable from an invuln save (except if you're saying you could take it IN ADDITION TO an invuln save or any normal save).

That is exactly what I am suggesting... given the fact that the save would be taken before the wound roll is made. And given that there are more dice to save against hits, while similar to an invul, it wouldn't be as efficient because the attacker can use strats, rerolls, etc more effectively as the defense would already have been rolled. It's actually more similar to a preemptive FNP

Gotcha. Makes a lot of sense!

SaganGree wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

That is statistically indistinguishable from an invuln save (except if you're saying you could take it IN ADDITION TO an invuln save or any normal save).

That is exactly what I am suggesting... given the fact that the save would be taken before the wound roll is made. And given that there are more dice to save against hits, while similar to an invul, it wouldn't be as efficient because the attacker can use strats, rerolls, etc more effectively as the defense would already have been rolled. It's actually more similar to a preemptive FNP

it would pretty much be better than a regular feel no pain and would make eldar one of the tankiest armies in the game.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

SaganGree wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

That is statistically indistinguishable from an invuln save (except if you're saying you could take it IN ADDITION TO an invuln save or any normal save).

That is exactly what I am suggesting... given the fact that the save would be taken before the wound roll is made. And given that there are more dice to save against hits, while similar to an invul, it wouldn't be as efficient because the attacker can use strats, rerolls, etc more effectively as the defense would already have been rolled. It's actually more similar to a preemptive FNP

it would pretty much be better than a regular feel no pain and would make eldar one of the tankiest armies in the game.

I don't disagree. It's basically an invuln that you can roll right into another invuln or armor save. The irony is that at 5++++++++ it's really really good, at 6+++++++ it's not worth rolling (not really) except against single target huge damage hits, and at 4++++++++ it's probably broken as feth. Talking army wide here, of course.

lost track of how many pluses we're at now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

SaganGree wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
Why couldn't you have an Evasion save? Something unique to Eldar and other highly twitchy gitz... I'm thinking a 5+ (adjustable) that you would roll before the wound roll happens...

I could see that representing the agility of the race, leave open the rule for other factions, like maybe assassins, and increase their durability without having to adjust the stats

That is statistically indistinguishable from an invuln save (except if you're saying you could take it IN ADDITION TO an invuln save or any normal save).

That is exactly what I am suggesting... given the fact that the save would be taken before the wound roll is made. And given that there are more dice to save against hits, while similar to an invul, it wouldn't be as efficient because the attacker can use strats, rerolls, etc more effectively as the defense would already have been rolled. It's actually more similar to a preemptive FNP

it would pretty much be better than a regular feel no pain and would make eldar one of the tankiest armies in the game.

I don't disagree. It's basically an invuln that you can roll right into another invuln or armor save. The irony is that at 5++++++++ it's really really good, at 6+++++++ it's not worth rolling (not really) except against single target huge damage hits, and at 4++++++++ it's probably broken as feth. Talking army wide here, of course.

lost track of how many pluses we're at now.

I don't entirely disagree... however... given that we are not seeing a stat improvement (assumption based on the shadow specters) and that very few Eldar units have invul saves or FNP, and probably won't get them, they need something to adjust the numbers. Especially as Eldar won't get an additional wound, as based on the earlier assumption.

Also... there are a lot more things (in QTY) out there that are STR4 than STR5

And to ease your plused mind... we can always call an evasion save a "-" so a 5- to represent the save before the wound roll

According to GW Community Metawatch article, Harilquins have over a 60% win rate. So what do they have that Craftworld Eldar don't?

I concur with what I read on this thread earlier. We're more likely to see a "Greater Guardian Aspect Warrior" with some kind of "Soul gem Lasblaster" or "Soul Witchblade" new model, with all the sweetness making players rush out to buy them. And then a small bump to regular Guardians.

A Toughness 3, wound 1 5+ armor save model is pretty useless in the Space Marine meta. Even if that model can move, shoot, run, and assault in the same turn. Unless it has a fantastic shooting assault weapon or mega melee Blade of DooooooM (Trademark), it's just gonna bounce off Space Marines.