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Ork nobz could end up real weird.
1 kombi scorcha, 2 kombi rokkits, kustom shootas entirely blink out of existence (but exist for warbosses and meganobz), 1 killsaw, 4 big choppas and power klaws.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

And guess what you were right! I already made a thread for this and someone already defended it!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

They can take a HWT, its just randomly in the paragraph above the weapon profiles rather than in wargear options. But yeah, they got gakked for special weapons.

 Nostromodamus wrote:


So I can still take 7-strong units then? That’s all I care about.

Yes, you still can.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This book makes me very frightened for what they're going to do to Chaos.

"A Squad of Havocs may have up to 4 heavy weapons, but no more than 1 Reaper Chaincannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers or 2 Lascannons"

On the other hand, it's easier to balance units if you limit choices.

No more "I take the best weapon x4 on each unit". Because that was part of the imbalance you like to complain about.

Sarouan wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This book makes me very frightened for what they're going to do to Chaos.

"A Squad of Havocs may have up to 4 heavy weapons, but no more than 1 Reaper Chaincannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers or 2 Lascannons"

On the other hand, it's easier to balance units if you limit choices.

No more "I take the best weapon x4 on each unit". Because that was part of the imbalance you like to complain about.

That wasn't the complaint and you know that, so don't make up gak.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This book makes me very frightened for what they're going to do to Chaos.

"A Squad of Havocs may have up to 4 heavy weapons, but no more than 1 Reaper Chaincannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers or 2 Lascannons"

Basic CSM could be the real horror story. Not enough bolters or chainswords in the kit for a full 10 man squad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That wasn't the complaint and you know that, so don't make up gak.

The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules. Fact is, the options in the current kit didn't allow what they did - they had to buy more boxes or bitz from other people (more likely boxes, since these options were actually looked after by most of the people anyway).

You know very well that building your army to be optimized only works as long as the current meta is valid. Now it's not anymore, because the rules change in every codex. Adapt or die, as they say.

How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That wasn't the complaint and you know that, so don't make up gak.

The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules. Fact is, the options in the current kit didn't allow what they did - they had to buy more boxes or bitz from other people (more likely boxes, since these options were actually looked after by most of the people anyway).

You know very well that building your army to be optimized only works as long as the current meta is valid. Now it's not anymore, because the rules change in every codex. Adapt or die, as they say.

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

chances are high they' ll eventually end up with a kit imo...

But as gad mentioned, screw havocs, CSM is where the real issue will show up..

as for the brood brother nonsense.....

FFS gw...

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

Oh man. They really don't want us to touch their precious, mastercrafted miniatures.

Possibly too late to help some. But.....

Hachette have have a re-stock of Conquest, so a bunch of DG characters can now be had for £7.99 a pop. Amongst other goodies. Suffice to say if you want DG, the following link might help bag some bargains.

https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40k-conquest/?p=4

So, riddle me this:

Why does the Miasmic Malignifier have a degrading profile?

The only thing that degrades is its Strength. None of its rules use its Strength.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Basic CSM could be the real horror story. Not enough bolters or chainswords in the kit for a full 10 man squad.

Wow. You're right. I hadn't even thought of that.

Sarouan wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

I don't think equipping a squad for a purpose is nearly as hard as you think it is.

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

I think that this change in weapon options is more indicative GW is pushing their Power Level (PL) system to be more used for list building.

If weapon choices are severily limited for most of the units, then the main complaint about PL being too wildly imbalanced with different combos of weapons is mostly solved. Because you won't be able to abuse the PL system the same way than before, simply because you can't just spam the best weapons for free.

 JNAProductions wrote:

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

Optimization is still optimization, no matter the intent. In your case, you just optimized depending on the role you give to your unit. That's pretty much what every competitive player does.

Sarouan wrote:
I think that this change in weapon options is more indicative GW is pushing their Power Level (PL) system to be more used for list building.

If weapon choices are severily limited for most of the units, then the main complaint about PL being too wildly imbalanced with different combos of weapons is mostly solved. Because you won't be able to abuse the PL system the same way than before, simply because you can't just spam the best weapons for free.

Isn't half the fun of the hobby being able to make them your guys?

If you can only use pre-determined loadouts, that's not very conducive to that.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

I don't think equipping a squad for a purpose is nearly as hard as you think it is.

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

Imagine thinking taking 2 Blight Launchers or 2 Plasma Guns instead of one of each was tournament level thinking. The things people say to defend GW on this garbage are unbelievable.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

I have 30 Blightlords. Roughly a 3rd of them have combi meltas or flamers. Well, guess I won’t be running all of them...

Stupid stupid stupid. Someone needs to call GW out for this on social media. The whole game is about “your guys” but they keep telling converters and kitbashers to feth the feth off.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't half the fun of the hobby being able to make them your guys?

If you can only use pre-determined loadouts, that's not very conducive to that.

Come on, most of the optimized armies don't use elaborate conversions - they just buy more boxes and use the parts that can be spammed for optimization.

You can still convert your plague marines to look awesome. You never had to use the weapon choices in rules for that. In fact, that's certainly the worst way to do it in any competitive game ever, since any veteran player know what is strong in former meta has good chances to be nerfed in the next.

Truth is, what is really annoying is the change on combi weapons for terminators - and that applies only to terminators having boltguns, not special weapons. Because the special weapons can still be taken twice like before, it's just not at the min number anymore.

Sarouan wrote:
Optimization is still optimization, no matter the intent. In your case, you just optimized depending on the role you give to your unit. That's pretty much what every competitive player does.

You have a real problem with competitive players, and you're thinking that making logical choices with wargear is somehow bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

I don't think equipping a squad for a purpose is nearly as hard as you think it is.

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

Imagine thinking taking 2 Blight Launchers or 2 Plasma Guns instead of one of each was tournament level thinking. The things people say to defend GW on this garbage are unbelievable.

I dunno. I'm choking on the 'just buy more, don't stop at a 2000 point list like a dirty optimizer.'
And somehow buy, buy, buy is what 'casual players' do...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Optimization is still optimization, no matter the intent. In your case, you just optimized depending on the role you give to your unit. That's pretty much what every competitive player does.

You have a real problem with competitive players, and you're thinking that making logical choices with wargear is somehow bad.

Not at all, I did it myself. But I'm not whining when GW changes the meta. I expect it to happen, TBH ; the competitive scene is why people keep complaining about imbalance in GW games. Because competitive players will never put restrictions on themselves if these restrictions aren't in the rules themselves, that's how they work.

Now the rules are clear, aren't they ? And they apply to everyone.

There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

Sarouan wrote:
I think that this change in weapon options is more indicative GW is pushing their Power Level (PL) system to be more used for list building.

I

You also said you can use 7 man squad PM's

Whats the PL for that on the new codex?

 Marshal Loss wrote:
There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

And also not applying it the same way in the same bloody datasheet! BLTs can still take all axes or swords despite the kit not having enough to equip the whole squad with them. They can still double up on heavy weapons and flails.

Dollars to donuts says the box still has the illegal squad load out on it too.

So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

I have 30 Blightlords. Roughly a 3rd of them have combi meltas or flamers. Well, guess I won’t be running all of them...

Stupid stupid stupid. Someone needs to call GW out for this on social media. The whole game is about “your guys” but they keep telling converters and kitbashers to feth the feth off.

Urgh, I hate this. If I want 4 combi-plasmas on a terminator squad and I want to convert them, and that was okay in the last book, it should stay okay. There's bound to be loads of people that now have illegal squads. Utterly boneheaded decision.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.