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Yeah, I hope GW reacts to this. Wouldn't be without precedent as they also reacted when people were upset that they couldn't use their World Eaters as troops in a World Eaters army.
Everyone who thinks this is about balance or strength of the Plague Marines unit simply misunderstood the complaint. I'm looking forward to use the Codex, but I'm not looking forward to explain my opponent why every single Plague Marine has a different loadout.

Heck, I think I be a whole lot more okay with it if Death Guard had Chosen (do Death Guard have Chosen?) as a place for all these models with specialized loadouts to still have a home poor as that be unless they were also a Troop option.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I guess you are right. You could just whine about it being nerfed and someone will tell you the proper rules. Good night, sir.

Is both completely insensitive to a legitimate concern and a demonstrated refusal to even make an effort to understand it. It is not hard to understand why people are upset, the concept and reasoning is not complex, it takes little thought to realize 'oh hey, that does suck for those affected in such a way' and while such may be the standard of the internet it remains disappointing to see the number of people unwilling to put even a minimal amount of thought into the matter.

The person I was responding to was complaining about a thing that objectively improved and got the rules wrong on everything else. I can't grasp why someone would put down dozens of posts on how horrible the codex is when they clearly haven't even done as much as read one of the longer reviews. To me that seems like some people simply want to be angry.

I fully understand why people are upset when their models is invalidated - it's just that as a long time ork player I'm used to losing droves of options, even whole units with every release, so to me this really feels like just a minor change in comparison.

They do not have chosen.

I will add the closest to this happening was some of the kill team changes with Deathwatch and SIA and what uses it. I didn't like that then and I don't like this now. However they didn't remove the options they just made them not as good.

I'd be happy if it was just less good but now for my same squad I used to run needs 3 more models and so costs 63 more points for no reason other than I want 2 plasmas and not a plasma and a blight launcher. I'm sure my 7 man 2 plasma units of plagues struck terror into everyones heart forever and my WAAC ways.

Jesus christ can we just talk about new strategies and ideas related to the new rules and not debate for 5 pages on whether GW is terrible or not. Yea they suck. Just let us enjoy this new codex and all the benefits it brings our armies.

At this point if you think the codex is a overall nerf please just leave the discussion. You are bringing nothing to the table for those of us who are wanting to discuss these new rules.

Like for real enough with the doom and gloom.

We are discussing the rules. We aren't going to be white knights over these unit entries.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Jesus christ can we just talk about new strategies and ideas related to the new rules and not debate for 5 pages on whether GW is terrible or not. Yea they suck. Just let us enjoy this new codex and all the benefits it brings our armies.

At this point if you think the codex is a overall nerf please just leave the discussion. You are bringing nothing to the table for those of us who are wanting to discuss these new rules.

Like for real enough with the doom and gloom.

If all you want is an echo chamber of joy, dreams are made of that. However, the rules just dropped, and this invalidation of units just struck down. I have heard no one say, even those who hate the unit entries this codex is a nerf, at least not in the lamenting of lost units. The new codex brings me first sorrow as it screws over my units set up. Will I get it to work ? Of course, but doesn't mean it won't piss me off every time I think about it.

We are discussing the new rules, just the negative/bad aspect of some of them.

Here's some suggestions of list ideas we could be discussing instead.

For melee deathguard, I think units like deathshroud, chaos spawn and possessed are good. These hit hard in close combat. So, just thinking out of the box, why not just modify some of your melee plague marines are call them possessed?

Seems like daemon engine deathguard is less of a thing now. But it might still be a viable list. Run Three PBCs, 3 fleshmowers, and 3 deathguard hellbrutes. Thats 9 hard to kill vehicles. Could be a thing. Cam throw in some Blight Haulers to increase the vehicle count even more.

Or try the list where you stuff as many terminators as you can into your army. Lord of contagion, Termi sorceror, 3 units of deathshroud, 2 units of Blightlords... and bam, you now have chaos version of a custodes list lol.

Someone somewhere is going to try out a list with 60 or more plague marines just to swarm the board with obsec,hard to kill bodies and see how that works out. Btw, 60 plague marines are moving 5 inches and rapid firing 24 inches on their bolters for 120 shots!

Fortunately I made green stuff molds of the combi add-ons and magnetised my Blightlords and my plague marines I will just have to have a reshuffle to make working squads.

I don't think this change bodes well for the hobby in general though. I understand GW limiting options due to the whole Charterhouse thing, but it feels like we're moving towards fixed loadouts for everything, I always thought this hobby was about creating something personal?

I am never a fan of reducing options, it cuts down on individuality, modelling opportunities, tactical choices.

I've recently been building a couple of boxes of regular chaos terminators and putting chainaxes on most. It was frustrating to find that with the new points that is now a sub optimal choice but I'm now even more concerned that when the new codex lands a squad will be forced to take 1 sword, 1 axe, 1 maul etc which if nothing else will make for a long winded melee phase...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 xeen wrote:
It happens in this game ALL THE TIME.

How many instances of this happening have we had in 9th so far, where an existing unit people have has gone from valid to illegal?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/#warhammer-40000

I'd say plenty.

This doesn't make it right.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

COLD CASH wrote:
Lets just talk about all the goodies shall we???

The negatives are so few and inconsequential there is no point in talking about them.

To me it seems the LOC is a worse LOV.
LOV has better buffs and interaction, has a strong shooting option and still seems a beast in CC.

The interaction with DS/BL's seems amazing.

The LOC having a +3" contagion range isn't an ability to sneeze at but does it beat out the LOV for a slot? im not sure.

I've been wondering the same thing. In fairness there's very little difference between them. I don't think the LoV offers Blightlords very much (anything, really), as his aura only affects ranged plague weapons. Deathshroud would get more out of it, & the LoV's weapon matches their range. The LoC has some serious beatstick potential though with some of the relics on offer and the 3" boost to Droning coming out of deep strike has some serious potential imo.

Pity the LoV doesn't have the Daemon Engine ability GW said/his codex description said he'd get to differentiate him, but they're both great anyway so who cares

The idea of a LoC dropping with a termi sorcerer and having a 12 inch contagion range could be interesting - but you could still fail the power and the charge and be stuck twiddling thumbs.

At the very least the LoC isn't something you can just move away fr and ignore though. Contagions really change up how I see myself using deep striking units.

That said I still think the LoV is better simply due to being more reliable. A failed charge is much less of an issue for him.


On the modelling, it seems to me that they're actually trying to simplify things for new players. If BL combi plasma were the meta, new players would end up having to kit bash, buy bits etc. I suspect GW doesn't see that as their market and wants to discourage it. It sucks for people like me that now have to fiddle with squads and actually have an illegal demon prince, but someone new to DG will have a simpler time.
I'm glad I never got around to the full melta BL I was thinking of working on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On princes - I was already cooling on wings with 9th. I now actually think a foot prince is better value. Fly is a great keyword, but 35 points is a lot.

I think I'll try a foot prince with a sword and Spewer when I can play again. Thoughts?

If that's their approach why leave their constantly flogged gateway Uber faction completely flexible in equipment loadouts regardless of any kit component limitations? While also leaving characters options like bikes that require kitbashing in this "new player simplified" approach

I see what youre saying. It's speculation obviously, but Primaris don't support kit bashing and I think GW see that as the entry point for marines. Sisters are the same, they have loads of options on the surface but they are entirely limited by what you can build with the kit. A Cannoness being the core example.

First born are a different beast. GW doesn't seem keen on poking that hornets nest. (New model) DG players are newer and fewer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would also the frustration is totally valid and I hope GW walk it back, just that I can see how someone could think this was a positive change, especially for new players and non-hobbyists

I've found wings, even on a prince you are advancing up with the rest of your army, are very useful for jumping out and counter charging. That 12" move and being able to jump over stuff was really useful. Now I believe it's only 10" is that right?
35pts seems incredibly expensive to go from 8-10" nice

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've found wings, even on a prince you are advancing up with the rest of your army, are very useful for jumping out and counter charging. That 12" move and being able to jump over stuff was really useful. Now I believe it's only 10" is that right?
35pts seems incredibly expensive to go from 8-10" nice

Since he is not infantry he doesn't get inexorable advance, so having wings helps for ignoring terrain.

Having said that, since 9th came out I have been running DP without wings anyway, The smaller battlefield and objective style game has meant I have not needed them.
I think no wings may be the way to go now

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I hope your next army is completely invalidated because of a rules change, then we’ll see what kind of song you’ll sing.

Most likely the same song they are now. GW could literally spit in some of these peoples faces and they'd say it's the best shower they'd ever had.

shabadoit wrote:
I see what youre saying. It's speculation obviously, but Primaris don't support kit bashing and I think GW see that as the entry point for marines. Sisters are the same, they have loads of options on the surface but they are entirely limited by what you can build with the kit. A Cannoness being the core example.

First born are a different beast. GW doesn't seem keen on poking that hornets nest. (New model) DG players are newer and fewer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would also the frustration is totally valid and I hope GW walk it back, just that I can see how someone could think this was a positive change, especially for new players and non-hobbyists

That's not completely true.

Some of the options from the sister units cannot be made with the stuff from the box, you need to get bitz from other unit's boxes.

COLD CASH wrote:
WTF people who plays this game thinking GW isn't gonna invalidate stuff?

Knights?

Iron hands Executioners?

Centurion's?

Wulfen?

Predators, vindicators, thudd guns, deredeo's, leviathan's the list goes on and on.

Get over it seriously if you haven't figured out its part of how the game is then what world have you been living in.

So you are telling you can't field centurions now? And wolf player i faced cheatea when he fielded wojfen? Not talking about good/bad so don't say they are bad because then you didn't understand complain and need to go and re-read messages. With dictionary at hand if needed(say not native english speaker)

Ynnari armies they pushed for many years are completely unplayable right now, especially those mixing bits from different Eldar to get away (!) from fielding Craftword/Harlequins/Drukhari detachments, which was the main theme.

Similarly, even the narrative missions from things like Blood of the Phoenix which is explicitly about characters like Lelith, Jain Zar and the Midnight Sorrows Solitaire turning Ynnari are completely illegal even in narrative play.

Not totally related to the equipment drama.

But does anyone know/heard rumours about (sorry if its been mentioned) what GW are doing with the Plague Marine box?

Because it seems to be out of stock on GW's store - and various third parties have run dry. The assumption a month or so ago was that this was just in order to repack it for 9th - but surely you'd... get on with that?

I mean the sensible thing would be to retool it for 10 marines - but given the Combat Patrol box it seems safe to say that isn't happening. I guess maybe GW delayed this release because of this issue and it still hasn't been resolved*, but it seems weird.

*In the business we call this the Cyberpunk.

Spoletta wrote:

That's not completely true.

Some of the options from the sister units cannot be made with the stuff from the box, you need to get bitz from other unit's boxes.

Yeah I suppose so. I guess I'd argue you need models from other boxes rather than bits, but it's still true that they don't limit retributors to 2 MM per 5, which is all you get in the box.

So I take it back - sisters don't have these restrictions. GW going to GW I guess.

Just give some time until the codex is actually released. A lot of rightfully outraged people here will eventually calm down and play along, I believe.

Because no matter how they try to spin it, they're in very specific categories :

- They didn't play Death Guard before the change and just like to whine on whatever GW does : they don't matter at all since they never intended to play the codex and buy the miniatures, anyway. I don't consider their outrage "rightful", since they were never concerned by this codex's changes. I mean, even if they started Death Guard with the new codex, they will play and build their list with the new meta. Nothing is invalidated in their case, since they had no Death Guard army before.
- They played Death Guard before the change but actually have enough in their collection to make a new list that can be perfectly legal - it's just that their current lists are invalidated and they need to change them. Once the codex is out and they can play, most of them will do what everyone in their situation did before : grumble a bit, change their lists and eventually get used to the new meta.
- They played Death Guard before the change but their collection isn't wide enough since they only play a specific list with optimized configurations. They will be forced to buy new stuff indeed and won't be able to play their invalidated list as such...at least not at the same amount of points. Guess they can still make something out with a smaller army of 1000 or 500 points, especially with the new raised costs. Either they will give up in anger (minority, I think) or they'll finally sigh and buy more to make their favorite list legal...like a lot more of other players who invested in GW miniatures before.

Even in the last two categories, we can make further diffenciation for those who play a massive number of blightlord terminators with special combi-weapons and those who don't or do in a very small number (like 5 at most). Since the change is really bad only for blightlord terminators with special combi weapons (because they can't have the same configuration like before with just raising their squad number), those who played indeed something like 30 blightlord terminators with a majority of combi-meltas are truly right to be outraged by the change invalidating a whole part of their collection. Those who played 5 may also be right to grumble, but well...it means the change of, what, 4 miniatures at best (I suspect it's more about 2 or 3 depending of the other special weapons you could field, though, since the flail was very interesting and fielding just a unit to deep strike and melta without charging is a bit sad for the price of terminators before)?

The rest about special weapons limitations raised to 10 instead of 5, it just means people will simply reorganize their units. That's all, none of their models are invalidated.


About the possibility this change will be repeated in other future codexes...well, duh. I mean, my main is Sisters of Battle and I already had a glimpse with the canoness' very specific weapon options. Also, I play AoS where it's even badder than 40k on the matter of options. So I'm not surprised by it at all.

Will I have to change my current configuration for retributors or dominions in the future V9 Adepta Sororitas codex ? I'm expecting it, yes. Does that mean I will throw my "useless" special weapon sisters in the bin ? Hell no, I will just reconfigure my units, build another list with the new tools and move on. Like the majority of 40k players when editions change.

We're just in the grumbling phase. It never lasts long.

Ah yes, the ol' "play the waiting game" chestnut...

One does not need to eat dog gak to know it will taste bad.

Cyberpunk 2077 will be good if we just WaiT aNd SeE!

 Grimtuff wrote:
Ah yes, the ol' "play the waiting game" chestnut...

Even though, in our current society, it's actually better to wait in more than one situation.

One does not need to eat dog gak to know it will taste bad.

So far, you're refusing to eat because of how it looks in your head rather than what's it actually tasting in your mouth.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Cyberpunk 2077 will be good if we just WaiT aNd SeE!

The Death Guard's codex isn't Cyberpunk 2077, though. False equivalencies are always a tool of the weaks.

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Ah yes, the ol' "play the waiting game" chestnut...

Even though, in our current society, it's actually better to wait in more than one situation.

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

One does not need to eat dog gak to know it will taste bad.

So far, you're refusing to eat because of how it looks in your head rather than what's it actually tasting in your mouth.

I.... i don't think you understood that analogy.

Tyel wrote:
Not totally related to the equipment drama.

But does anyone know/heard rumours about (sorry if its been mentioned) what GW are doing with the Plague Marine box?

Because it seems to be out of stock on GW's store - and various third parties have run dry. The assumption a month or so ago was that this was just in order to repack it for 9th - but surely you'd... get on with that?

I mean the sensible thing would be to retool it for 10 marines - but given the Combat Patrol box it seems safe to say that isn't happening. I guess maybe GW delayed this release because of this issue and it still hasn't been resolved*, but it seems weird.

*In the business we call this the Cyberpunk.

That would be the sensible thing to do but if they added the other remaining 3 Plague marines they would also had to add the extra special weapons that are on the DEX new load outs for 10 man units. We are talking a huge 5or 6 sprue box or totally new sprues here. I think we are stuck to 7 man boxes.
I was surprised that the 3 man easy to build Plague marines box is no more, specially since those models are displayed on the Plague marines page in new codex.

You really have to get 2 boxes of 7 to be able to have and equip a 10 man unit with the load outs that you want. So your looking at £60 for 1 core full unit of 10 PM's.

I looked at eBay and the Dark imperium Nurgle PM's are quite expensive now and in therms of load out you would only have 1 plasma?... So yeah at those silly prices better off with current multipart box.
Earlier on this thread someone posted about Conquest magazines so keep an eye on that too.

I know hard one to swallow, specially if you want 2 core units.

 Grimtuff wrote:


I.... i don't think you understood that analogy.

No, I perfectly do. The book isn't even out yet and you can't have tested all the possibilites with the new book already. You may have an idea of how it will play in your head, but you can't be sure unless you actually tried it.

To take your analogy, you're like a child refusing to eat what their parents are trying to feed him, purely because you decided in your mind it was dog gak so and not how it actually really taste.

You do what you want, in the end ! But I'm expecting the majority of Death Guard players not sharing your very narrow point of view about the changes, in the end.

Sarouan wrote:
Just give some time until the codex is actually released. A lot of rightfully outraged people here will eventually calm down and play along, I believe.

Because no matter how they try to spin it, they're in very specific categories :


We're just in the grumbling phase. It never lasts long.

Right. Thank you for the patronising exercise of categorising people, totally off topic.

As someone who has played all kinds of Aeldari for decades I am pretty much used to changes and losing loadouts. It sucks, but I have learned to live with it. Only thing I would want GW to do is to make the more limited offerings(like the current Autarch) much more useful and equipment appropriate for their role rather than the usual rule of cool they want to go for and tends to be the oddman out in an army. Thankfully I don't have that problem with Death Guard although I will now have to think differently how I equip the PM and Blightlords.