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2020/12/01 00:55:58
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Castozor wrote: I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.
I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.
So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.
It's certainly better then 3rd edition, which is where most of humor got drained out through.
3rd was where most of the humor died, but it's been trickling back in since then. At least Cain is still VERY canon which helps a lot too.
Alsol I think a lot of the humor is now more subtle. which is important if you wanna be taken seriously. such as "Inqusitor obi-wan sherlock clousto" is silly and rediculas but it's a little too blatent. it takes you out of the setting and immediatly reduces it to a joke. the Onager gauntlet by comparison is something that can slip past you, until you notice it and have a LOL moment
Exactly. They killed the really obvious stuff, but slipped in other jokes and puns instead.
which honestly is the way to do humor in a mature setting that you want people to be able to take semi-seriously.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/12/01 01:01:12
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
I suppose that is true to some extend but I do not mind the occasional Sly Marbo kind of character. Yes it´s on the nose, but taking 40k straight has always been sort of impossible for me. It is just to over the top for that.
2020/12/01 01:06:33
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Castozor wrote: I suppose that is true to some extend but I do not mind the occasional Sly Marbo kind of character. Yes it´s on the nose, but taking 40k straight has always been sort of impossible for me. It is just to over the top for that.
Canis Wolfborn?
2020/12/01 01:12:55
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
NinthMusketeer wrote: The reasonable assumption to make is that seeing as the rib cage is a fused plate but lungs still work, the lungs must have been modified in such a way as to still function.
No, the reasonable assumption is that the writer has no clue how lungs work.
NinthMusketeer wrote: But since the average person is not going to even think about that, any competent writer would know to exclude such information in favor of other fluff people would actually be interested in. I'd say if they went into details like that all the time anyone who's taken a basic writing class would immediately facepalm
But surely the exact same applies to the whole thing of SMs replacing their entire rib cages with armour? Except that it raises some key questions which the author doesn't even attempt to address.
With any fiction there will come a point where the reader needs to fill in the gaps. If you TRY to avoid filling them there is not a single setting out there which does not fall apart completely.
On second thought, you're right.
I always respect someone who can re-consider their position, and thanks.
Clearly it's genius writing and beyond all criticism.
Wow, I skim read a couple pages of the thread so I must have missed when someone made this claim. Obviously that is absurd, IMO you should probably just disregard the source of that claim since they are clearly trolling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 01:13:13
Castozor wrote: I suppose that is true to some extend but I do not mind the occasional Sly Marbo kind of character. Yes it´s on the nose, but taking 40k straight has always been sort of impossible for me. It is just to over the top for that.
Canis Wolfborn?
I´ll have to admit I liked SW a lot more when they were vikings in space (silly as that was) over furries/werewolves in space with extra wolf on top of that.
2020/12/01 06:57:25
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Castozor wrote: I suppose that is true to some extend but I do not mind the occasional Sly Marbo kind of character. Yes it´s on the nose, but taking 40k straight has always been sort of impossible for me. It is just to over the top for that.
Canis Wolfborn?
while Sly Marbo is a nice pop culture reference having Wolf MacWolfface not only once but many times inside the Codex is a little bit to much for a joke to work well
yet Viking in Space was the better backstory than Werewolves in Space which brings back the question why they removed Vampires in Space
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2020/12/01 07:17:29
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Has anyone counted the number of times "wolf" is used in the lineup of SW units, characters, and equipment?
And we should never forget Murderfang, found on the planet Omnicide, who's Murderlust ability drives him to attack with his Murderclaws, while opponents are intimidated by his BARE FETHING FACE IN A DREADNOUGHT and unable to just shoot him in the head.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 07:19:08
Castozor wrote: I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.
I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.
So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.
I'm pretty sure the "Onager" is refering to this :
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
2020/12/01 08:24:46
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Castozor wrote: I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.
I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.
So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.
I'm pretty sure the "Onager" is refering to this :
Castozor wrote: I agree, seems like some of the grimdark has been kept but the humour has been drained out. It was one of my main reasons for starting with Orks when I started 40k. Out of all the current factions it seems they are the only ones who kept the humour in that made me fall in love with 40k. Don't get me wrong I greatly enjoy KNC's grimdark thread and it has it's place, but there needs to be humour too, and not just in Orks. One of the greatest pieces of 40K backgrond I've ever read were the comics about the Redeemer (I think?) and his wacky adventures across Necromunda. Sure, when taking straight it was extremely grimdark too, but it also had humour and that was what made it amazing to me.
I think there is still humor. Onager Gauntlet? Onager is a kind of Asian donkey, making every attack with the weapon a donkey punch. The Ad Mech also think a the Dunecrawler looks like a Donkey (hence the "Onager" name). Plus they unironically cribbed DaVinci's sketches as actual designs.
So the jokes are still there, the problem is when the jokes crop up (like Jokareo), the community's more vocal elements flip out on them and complain that those elements are "ruining" everything.
I'm pretty sure the "Onager" is refering to this :
Which also refers to the catapult "kicking like a mule" when fired.
Oh, I didn't read that far, but I think they've just "googled" cool siege weapons and used the name. I don't think the donkey-part ever occurred to them
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
2020/12/01 09:49:38
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
the_scotsman wrote: *genetically enhanced superwarrior immediately suffocates and dies because of how lungs work*
As a former biology teacher, I really wish people would stop bringing this one up as an example of "stuff that couldn't work in the real world" / "stupid GW writer doesn't understand basic science". Because you're actually wrong. It is possible to breathe just with the diaphragm, without needing to move the ribs at all. People with paralysed chest muscles don't immediately suffocate. Diaphragmatic breathing is actually more efficient than thoracic breathing provided you're not a pregnant woman. Most people use both their ribs and diaphragm in normal breathing, of course. But a sufficiently strengthened diaphragm and proper technique/training (alongside some of the other enhancements Astartes supposedly have, such as more efficient haemoglobin) could easily compensate for not being able to move the ribs at all. So, yeah, please stop using the Astartes fused ribcage as an example of GW getting stuff wrong.
Also, turtles exist.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
2020/12/01 10:18:48
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Oh, I didn't read that far, but I think they've just "googled" cool siege weapons and used the name. I don't think the donkey-part ever occurred to them
You're giving the current GW studio too little credit. While they almost certainly don't match the unusually high learning levels of the late 1980s studio, they still consist of people interested in history, just like most of their hobbyists (and fans of Star Wars, come to think of it), are. Knowing that Roman Onager carapults refer to kicking mountain donkeys (who kick stones at attackers) require no more than reading a Rome: Total War unit description, or any military history book on warfare in classical antiquity.
It's fairly low-level stuff for history enthusiasts with an interest in Rome. Nothing special with that bit of knowledge.
Anyone who has ever read the Onager Dunecrawler's background know that it's a humorous dig at the loss of accurate knowledge resulting in Adeptus Mechanicus believing mules of ancient times to have been insect creatures, not mammals:
The Onager Dunecrawler owes its origins to the Mars Universal Land Engine (M.U.L.E). Fashioned by the techno-archaeologist Arkhan Land, the original M.U.L.E was inspired by a type of bad-tempered, insectile beast of burden that its maker believed walked Holy Terra in aeons long past. Intended as a workhorse that could escort its masters across the red desert wastes of Mars in relative safety, the machine proved so successful it was soon rebuilt as a weapon of war. It was renamed, outfitted with an Emanatus Force Field, replicated by the millions, and sent to the front line.
Clearly, the donkey part was fully known.
And clearly, playful humour of some kind is alive and well in 40k, even if every little period's comedy aspects look different as per the natural cycle of creativity.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 10:25:20
Oh, I didn't read that far, but I think they've just "googled" cool siege weapons and used the name. I don't think the donkey-part ever occurred to them
You're giving the current GW studio too little credit. While they almost certainly don't match the unusually high learning levels of the late 1980s, they still consist of people interested in history, just like most of their hobbyists (and fans of Star Wars, come to think of it), are. Knowing that Roman Onager carapults refer to kicking mountain donkeys (who kick stones at attackers) require no more than reading a Rome: Total War unit description, or any military history book on warfare in classical antiquity.
It's fairly low-level stuff for history enthusiasts with an interest in Rome.
Anyone who has ever read the Onager Dunecrawler's background know that it's a humorous dig at the loss of accurate knowledge resulting in Adeptus Mechanicus believing mules of ancient times to have been insect creatures, not mammals:
The Onager Dunecrawler owes its origins to the Mars Universal Land Engine (M.U.L.E). Fashioned by the techno-archaeologist Arkhan Land, the original M.U.L.E was inspired by a type of bad-tempered, insectile beast of burden that its maker believed walked Holy Terra in aeons long past. Intended as a workhorse that could escort its masters across the red desert wastes of Mars in relative safety, the machine proved so successful it was soon rebuilt as a weapon of war. It was renamed, outfitted with an Emanatus Force Field, replicated by the millions, and sent to the front line.
I stand corrected, I didn't know about the M.U.L.E this is actually a great reference!
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
2020/12/01 12:36:00
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
NinthMusketeer wrote: The reasonable assumption to make is that seeing as the rib cage is a fused plate but lungs still work, the lungs must have been modified in such a way as to still function.
No, the reasonable assumption is that the writer has no clue how lungs work.
NinthMusketeer wrote: But since the average person is not going to even think about that, any competent writer would know to exclude such information in favor of other fluff people would actually be interested in. I'd say if they went into details like that all the time anyone who's taken a basic writing class would immediately facepalm
But surely the exact same applies to the whole thing of SMs replacing their entire rib cages with armour? Except that it raises some key questions which the author doesn't even attempt to address.
With any fiction there will come a point where the reader needs to fill in the gaps. If you TRY to avoid filling them there is not a single setting out there which does not fall apart completely.
On second thought, you're right.
I always respect someone who can re-consider their position, and thanks.
Clearly it's genius writing and beyond all criticism.
Wow, I skim read a couple pages of the thread so I must have missed when someone made this claim. Obviously that is absurd, IMO you should probably just disregard the source of that claim since they are clearly trolling.
I mean, people are latching on to some element of the argument and forgetting what it was responding to, so, fairs fair there friend.
I'm not, and never have, claimed that 40k having genetically enhanced supersoldiers with biologically impossible enhancements is a bad thing. The entire point of pointing out how impossible all these things were was to counter the common sentiment that "40k is more realistic than *insert space opera universe here, Mass Effect, Star Trek, Whatever where different alien races work together sometimes instead of always fight*"
Star Trek is infinitely more "Realistic" than 40k. A universe where people have figured out space travel so they have also figured out a way to turn common organic materials into food via science fiction technology is more realistic than a universe where a megacity sustains itself entirely on cannibalism somehow. Just because something is crueler and nastier does not make it "More Realistic."
Less Realistic does not mean Bad. 40k is firmly in the realm of science fantasy with universes like Star Wars and has never ever in a million billion years pretended to be some realistic hard sci fi universe. Realistic is a label people place on it because Realistic is a label people love to apply to anything dark and gritty and grimdark.
And clearly, playful humour of some kind is alive and well in 40k, even if every little period's comedy aspects look different as per the natural cycle of creativity.
The lore in the admech codexes has been some of the consistently best fluff GW has put out for 40k since 7th ed, IMO. It's so delightfully classic pulp sci-fi, and it definitely helps that their miniature design team was catapulted into a dumpster filled with old 1970s paperback novels with the yellow pages and the titles like SKLABRAXIAN MAIDENS OF VENUS and were told to dig around until they found 10 images cool enough to make miniatures of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 12:38:56
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/12/01 14:46:03
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
I'm not sure that the grimdark has gone anywhere, but there's a sentiment of Imperial rationalization among the fanbase I see that I don't remember being a thing ten years ago. I think the Imperium is as hopeless and authoritarian as ever, but there are a lot more fans who are convinced that it is supposed to be reasonable.
And that's where you get arguments like:
-commissars aren't as trigger-happy as they are in the memes
-most planets are totally fine to live on and we only hear about the bad ones
-the AdMech approach to technology is actually hyper-rational because everything contains AI
-warp travel is actually super safe because otherwise the losses would be excessive
-Custodes executing a bunch of Primaris because their chapter is tainted and they don't follow the Custodes' orders is dumb and out of character
-the Imperium sucks but it's the best humanity can do under the circumstances
And I think it's basically missing the point of the setting, turning it from an over-the-top satire into straight-faced fascist fantasy.
Gregor Samsa wrote: The black and white art design/illustrations remain pretty consistent throughout 40k history ... however the adult swim / Rick and Morty style of artwork that has crept its way into the branding is simply terrible and lazy.
Are there any pieces you're thinking of in particular?
Which means nothing. Tumblr is a platform, which a wide variety of artists post on.
The above image is from Thomas Elliot's tumblr. Would you say this fits into a easily definable "Tumblr style" or is it more likely you're going off buzzwords?
"Tumblr Style" not "Tumblr art"
one is a platform with many differing things, the other is a style or art that is recognisable instantly due to being associated to said platform but is no longer exclusive to said platform.
2020/12/01 15:44:37
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Eh, I disagree. I assume you mean "Cal Arts style" when you say "Tumblr style" since they're basically the same thing from what I can see, but 40k hasn't fallen down that hole.
I do think that modern 40k can be a bit too smooth (lacks a certain level of textured detail older art has) but that doesn't make it bad, or even "tumblr style". It just makes it a little cleaner than what I prefer.
2020/12/01 15:54:10
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Formosa, I really want to know what you have in mind when you say 40K has Tumblr-style art. I haven't seen anything that reminds me remotely of that Cal Arts style.
catbarf wrote: Formosa, I really want to know what you have in mind when you say 40K has Tumblr-style art. I haven't seen anything that reminds me remotely of that Cal Arts style.
I'm also confused as to whether we're talking art in the actual codices or if this is fan art or jokey, marketing art from a website.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/12/01 17:16:52
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Catbarf: I really agree with your point about people taking the Imperium as the "good guy" faction seriously. It was obvious in the older background that the Imperium were NOT the good guys and that what they were doing was often stupid and pointless, that was part of the whole setting. Stuff like the machine spirit was just the tech priests not really understanding how stuff works and ascribing mythical properties to it, same with the whole "ork tech only works because they believe it does" theory, which was a tech priest who couldn't understand why a mekboy could really make functioning tech.
It extends to Space Marines being good guys and not psycho indoctrinated freaks with a murderboner dressed up as avenging angels by the Imperium's propaganda.
Unfortunately, my impression is that since we are on to the second generation of creators and most of them were fans of the material, some of them took that stuff unironically and have now made it "canon", a process accelerated by the production of hundreds of poor quality novels set in the same universe. So now 40K really is just a fascist power fantasy rather than a dark satire taking the piss out of it, and that is really sad.
catbarf wrote: Formosa, I really want to know what you have in mind when you say 40K has Tumblr-style art. I haven't seen anything that reminds me remotely of that Cal Arts style.
I'm also confused as to whether we're talking art in the actual codices or if this is fan art or jokey, marketing art from a website.
I'm pretty sure they're bitching about the jokey marketing art they throw up on the website.
You know, because GW would NEVER introduce a jokey, non-serious cartoony character for any of their marketing material. Such a - let's call him for the sake of random example the "White Dwarf" - such a White Dwarf would NEVER have flown with old, classic, serious grimdark Games Workshop.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/12/01 20:29:39
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Karol wrote: Strange. I see nothing wrong with it. If you need to get a job done you just do it. Why shouldn't the GK harvest the sisters? Sooner or later the position would be overwhelmed, the planet would be lost to the warp and then it would start again on another planet. By harvesting the sisters blood, the GK get the weapon they needed to perform a banishment on a large scale.
You don't kill allies that are faithful to your cause. If the GK really killed those sisters (never read the Matt Ward lore) then it's stupid beyond comparison and belongs right next to all the abominable tech fluff which was conjured by Cawl out of thin air.
2020/12/01 20:33:03
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Karol wrote: Strange. I see nothing wrong with it. If you need to get a job done you just do it. Why shouldn't the GK harvest the sisters? Sooner or later the position would be overwhelmed, the planet would be lost to the warp and then it would start again on another planet. By harvesting the sisters blood, the GK get the weapon they needed to perform a banishment on a large scale.
You don't kill allies that are faithful to your cause. If the GK really killed those sisters (never read the Matt Ward lore) then it's stupid beyond comparison and belongs right next to all the abominable tech fluff which was conjured by Cawl out of thin air.
The Imperium has long showed that many of its subfactions are more allies of convenience/situation than steadfast allies. Many of the various factions within the Imperium will fight and kill each other for a myriad of reasons. Some just, some unjust, some insane, some sane and some just because someone higher up the chain told them to do so.
Each subgroup will consider their cause the will of the Emperor and even without corruption by chaos, they can war with each other.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Has anyone counted the number of times "wolf" is used in the lineup of SW units, characters, and equipment?
.
apparently, one of the SW codexes said theirs a "eskimo words for snow" thing going on, with a selection of different and distinct Fenrisian words all getting translated into just "wolf" in gothic,like if the words "Gelding", "Stallion" and "Foal" and "Nag" were all translated as just "Horse".
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2020/12/01 20:55:13
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
catbarf wrote: I'm not sure that the grimdark has gone anywhere, but there's a sentiment of Imperial rationalization among the fanbase I see that I don't remember being a thing ten years ago. I think the Imperium is as hopeless and authoritarian as ever, but there are a lot more fans who are convinced that it is supposed to be reasonable.
And that's where you get arguments like:
-commissars aren't as trigger-happy as they are in the memes
-most planets are totally fine to live on and we only hear about the bad ones
-the AdMech approach to technology is actually hyper-rational because everything contains AI
-warp travel is actually super safe because otherwise the losses would be excessive
-Custodes executing a bunch of Primaris because their chapter is tainted and they don't follow the Custodes' orders is dumb and out of character
-the Imperium sucks but it's the best humanity can do under the circumstances
And I think it's basically missing the point of the setting, turning it from an over-the-top satire into straight-faced fascist fantasy.
Very much so, it's circular logic because, due to certain depictions from GW, people are *convinced* that the Imperium has to have good intentions.
2020/12/01 21:19:43
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Karol wrote: Strange. I see nothing wrong with it. If you need to get a job done you just do it. Why shouldn't the GK harvest the sisters? Sooner or later the position would be overwhelmed, the planet would be lost to the warp and then it would start again on another planet. By harvesting the sisters blood, the GK get the weapon they needed to perform a banishment on a large scale.
You don't kill allies that are faithful to your cause. If the GK really killed those sisters (never read the Matt Ward lore) then it's stupid beyond comparison and belongs right next to all the abominable tech fluff which was conjured by Cawl out of thin air.
The GK killed them because they believed them to be inevitably corrupted by chaos. They do this a lot in the fluff. I think it's good fluff.
catbarf wrote: I'm not sure that the grimdark has gone anywhere, but there's a sentiment of Imperial rationalization among the fanbase I see that I don't remember being a thing ten years ago. I think the Imperium is as hopeless and authoritarian as ever, but there are a lot more fans who are convinced that it is supposed to be reasonable.
And that's where you get arguments like:
-commissars aren't as trigger-happy as they are in the memes
-most planets are totally fine to live on and we only hear about the bad ones
-the AdMech approach to technology is actually hyper-rational because everything contains AI
-warp travel is actually super safe because otherwise the losses would be excessive
-Custodes executing a bunch of Primaris because their chapter is tainted and they don't follow the Custodes' orders is dumb and out of character
-the Imperium sucks but it's the best humanity can do under the circumstances
And I think it's basically missing the point of the setting, turning it from an over-the-top satire into straight-faced fascist fantasy.
Very much so, it's circular logic because, due to certain depictions from GW, people are *convinced* that the Imperium has to have good intentions.
Good intentions are the intentions that help humanity survive and rise to be the sole occupier's of the galaxy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 21:21:06
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/12/01 21:25:16
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Let's also not forget that while as a whole the Empire might be a weird pseudo Fascist-Theocratic Feudal state, the fluff often shows individual Imperial commanders as kind good-hearted individuals despite being Imperials. Contrast this with most Xenos and all Chaos characters as irredeemable evil people and it is not hard to see why some people might get the impression the Imperium are actually the good guys. The only other factions who get equally good-ish characters are Tau and arguably Eldar.
2020/12/01 21:32:34
Subject: State of Health for Grimdark in Warhammer 40'000
Maybe this is the fact that we had it at school this week, but why do people call the empire fasist? It doesn't follow any of the main points the Italian, Spanish or even Polish versions of it. And it is hell different from what germany had too, although they didn't have fasism at all.
It is an autocratic system with an oligarchy ruling class. There are no unions or separation of state and church in the w40k world.
The GK killed them because they believed them to be inevitably corrupted by chaos. They do this a lot in the fluff. I think it's good fluff
That is not how it is writen in the GK codex I read. They killed the SoB stricktly because they were resilient to the effects of the blood tide. So they were killed and used the same way GK would have used relics of saints or other devices that could give them an edge over the demons. GK are nothing but practical in their use of anything.
You don't kill allies that are faithful to your cause. If the GK really killed those sisters (never read the Matt Ward lore) then it's stupid beyond comparison and belongs right next to all the abominable tech fluff which was conjured by Cawl out of thin air.
You know maybe it is becauses I am doing 1918-1945 history at school right now, but is a definite lie. People sacrifice other people on their side non stop. And it doesn't even matter on what side they are.
If Stalin could advice communist in China to support the KMT only for them to get slaughters by the KMT in 1928, then GK can kill off SoB if it makes their job easier. GK are willing to kill anyone if their missions requires it, including other GKs too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 22:58:52
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
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this is actually a great reference!
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
