Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 catbarf wrote:
Formosa, I really want to know what you have in mind when you say 40K has Tumblr-style art. I haven't seen anything that reminds me remotely of that Cal Arts style.

Its so well known that you can literally google "tumblr style art" and you will get the results I got, lets not play games now eh, you may not like that its a style of art but it is and one I like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Formosa, I really want to know what you have in mind when you say 40K has Tumblr-style art. I haven't seen anything that reminds me remotely of that Cal Arts style.

I'm also confused as to whether we're talking art in the actual codices or if this is fan art or jokey, marketing art from a website.

I'm pretty sure they're bitching about the jokey marketing art they throw up on the website.

You know, because GW would NEVER introduce a jokey, non-serious cartoony character for any of their marketing material. Such a - let's call him for the sake of random example the "White Dwarf" - such a White Dwarf would NEVER have flown with old, classic, serious grimdark Games Workshop.

Rather than guessing why not just ask me

And no, I am not bitching, I pointed out that this particular art style is what the other person may have been talking about and then Dakka wackos assumed the rest as usual

 Xenomancers wrote:
The GK killed them because they believed them to be inevitably corrupted by chaos. They do this a lot in the fluff. I think it's good fluff.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Good intentions are the intentions that help humanity survive and rise to be the sole occupier's of the galaxy.

Except that by slaughtering people they're just making the setting worse (since the Immaterium basically reflects all the horrible gak they do back at them). It's "good fluff" in the sense that it shows how self-defeating the Imperium is, but the Grey Knights are not meant to be justified, they're meant to be murderous, corrupt psychopaths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Maybe this is the fact that we had it at school this week, but why do people call the empire fasist? It doesn't follow any of the main points the Italian, Spanish or even Polish versions of it. And it is hell different from what germany had too, although they didn't have fasism at all.

Right-wing government, very warlike, massively authoritarian, emphasis on racial purity. All sounds very fascist to me. "Theofascism" might be more accurate, but many people in Germany used religious justifications for their support of the Nazi party.

Karol wrote:
Maybe this is the fact that we had it at school this week, but why do people call the empire fasist? It doesn't follow any of the main points the Italian, Spanish or even Polish versions of it. And it is hell different from what germany had too, although they didn't have fasism at all.

It is an autocratic system with an oligarchy ruling class. There are no unions or separation of state and church in the w40k world.

yeah, political terms are pretty much always wrongly used in 40k. T'au arent communist, just because they got a boner for "the greater good" doesnt make them communists.

Karol wrote:

You know maybe it is becauses I am doing 1918-1945 history at school right now, but is a definite lie. People sacrifice other people on their side non stop. And it doesn't even matter on what side they are.

If Stalin could advice communist in China to support the KMT only for them to get slaughters by the KMT in 1928, then GK can kill off SoB if it makes their job easier. GK are willing to kill anyone if their missions requires it, including other GKs too.

there is a difference between sacrificing and actively killing them yourself.

(since the Immaterium basically reflects all the horrible gak they do back at them).

Oh they were a bit late on that since the Old Ones and the Necrontyr fought. The Immaterium got completely jacked long before Humanity came on the scene and twisted the souls desires regardless of how pure they came to be.

Hecaton wrote:
Right-wing government, very warlike, massively authoritarian, emphasis on racial purity. All sounds very fascist to me.

In fairness, the left-wing, Communist USSR was also very warlike, massively authoritarian etc.

(Not saying you're wrong about the Imperium being fascist - just that these characteristics are by no means unique to fascist governments.)

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Has anyone counted the number of times "wolf" is used in the lineup of SW units, characters, and equipment?
.

apparently, one of the SW codexes said theirs a "eskimo words for snow" thing going on, with a selection of different and distinct Fenrisian words all getting translated into just "wolf" in gothic,like if the words "Gelding", "Stallion" and "Foal" and "Nag" were all translated as just "Horse".

That... is actually a really good explanation. I still think the IRL execution leaves much to be desired but as for IRL in-universe explanation that is great writing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
I'm not sure that the grimdark has gone anywhere, but there's a sentiment of Imperial rationalization among the fanbase I see that I don't remember being a thing ten years ago. I think the Imperium is as hopeless and authoritarian as ever, but there are a lot more fans who are convinced that it is supposed to be reasonable.

And that's where you get arguments like:
-commissars aren't as trigger-happy as they are in the memes
-most planets are totally fine to live on and we only hear about the bad ones
-the AdMech approach to technology is actually hyper-rational because everything contains AI
-warp travel is actually super safe because otherwise the losses would be excessive
-Custodes executing a bunch of Primaris because their chapter is tainted and they don't follow the Custodes' orders is dumb and out of character
-the Imperium sucks but it's the best humanity can do under the circumstances

And I think it's basically missing the point of the setting, turning it from an over-the-top satire into straight-faced fascist fantasy.

Very much so, it's circular logic because, due to certain depictions from GW, people are *convinced* that the Imperium has to have good intentions.

There is an underlying message of 40k that 'good' is relative. Yeah, the Imperium ARE good guys in the setting, despite being plenty awful enough to qualify as the bad guys in most others. That's how bad the state of the galaxy is; the brutal autocratic state is the better alternative.

For example, Planetary Governor A is given notice of a genestealer cult rising on his world. He acts with good intent and real-world rationality; calling in experts, starting a program of widespread testing, sending military to clear out infested areas. But the experts he calls in from off world may not arrive for years or at all, and the ones he has on world are quickly compromised if they weren't already because that is what the cult was counting on. Those in charge of testing are quickly dominated via psyker or genestealer kiss and begin infecting people under the guise of testing. Those military sent to clear out areas are ostensibly successful, but the time spent to organize structured military raids means the cult has already moved vital assets elsewhere.

Planetary Governor B on a similar planet receives the same news. He immediately mobilizes the entire military to sweep the populace execute any bald civilian on sight, before he even starts to come up with a long term plan.

Governor A doomed his planet and all the people on it. Governor B might have a chance. The galaxy is so utterly screwed up that the guy who orders immediate genocide is doing the better thing. That is what makes 40k Grimdark.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Has anyone counted the number of times "wolf" is used in the lineup of SW units, characters, and equipment?
.

apparently, one of the SW codexes said theirs a "eskimo words for snow" thing going on, with a selection of different and distinct Fenrisian words all getting translated into just "wolf" in gothic,like if the words "Gelding", "Stallion" and "Foal" and "Nag" were all translated as just "Horse".

I still assume that somewhere a Imperial translator was getting their revenge on the Space Wolves by wolfing the crap out of their language and by the time anyone noticed it was too late, so they got stuck with Wolf and Frost on everything.

 vipoid wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Right-wing government, very warlike, massively authoritarian, emphasis on racial purity. All sounds very fascist to me.

In fairness, the left-wing, Communist USSR was also very warlike, massively authoritarian etc.

(Not saying you're wrong about the Imperium being fascist - just that these characteristics are by no means unique to fascist governments.)

It should be noted however, that Stalinism is only communist under a rather broad definition of communism, and was viewed as either facist or protofascist by many contemporaries, including both Hitler and Mussolini. So, this might not be the best example.

 Castozor wrote:
Let's also not forget that while as a whole the Empire might be a weird pseudo Fascist-Theocratic Feudal state, the fluff often shows individual Imperial commanders as kind good-hearted individuals despite being Imperials. Contrast this with most Xenos and all Chaos characters as irredeemable evil people and it is not hard to see why some people might get the impression the Imperium are actually the good guys. The only other factions who get equally good-ish characters are Tau and arguably Eldar.

There are plenty of stories that put the Imperium against the Imperium as well, where a person with a lot of power is corrupt and abusing their position for their own goals (Faith and Fury, Penal Corps, Flesh and Iron (the author's plagarism aside, the story sold the idea of the Imperium actively destroying its own for petty reasons), ect, ect). So it's not like the Imperium isn't made the villian either, it's just that those stories tend to get glossed over in favor of the current xenos punch up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Right-wing government, very warlike, massively authoritarian, emphasis on racial purity. All sounds very fascist to me.

In fairness, the left-wing, Communist USSR was also very warlike, massively authoritarian etc.

(Not saying you're wrong about the Imperium being fascist - just that these characteristics are by no means unique to fascist governments.)

I feel this is where a political compass would help:


Basically facist is when the economic policies and the personal freedoms are far authoritarian right.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The fundamental problem isn't that 40k presents an unsustainable theocratic-fascist dystopia that is too busy alternating between self-flagellation and self-fellation to meaningfully reform, but rather that there are some fans out there who think this is the desirable state of affairs in-universe (and some worse fans who think so out-of-universe too though I'll grant they're rarer).

In 20 years of being in this hobby I don't think I've once seen this. Closest has been that the Imperium is necessary insofar as the alternative - submission to Chaos - would be so much worse (which is true). The Imperium is an absolute nightmare state for 99.9% of the population, but at least you probably won't have your soul tortured for eternity when you die.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
Let's also not forget that while as a whole the Empire might be a weird pseudo Fascist-Theocratic Feudal state, the fluff often shows individual Imperial commanders as kind good-hearted individuals despite being Imperials. Contrast this with most Xenos and all Chaos characters as irredeemable evil people and it is not hard to see why some people might get the impression the Imperium are actually the good guys. The only other factions who get equally good-ish characters are Tau and arguably Eldar.

There are plenty of stories that put the Imperium against the Imperium as well, where a person with a lot of power is corrupt and abusing their position for their own goals (Faith and Fury, Penal Corps, Flesh and Iron (the author's plagarism aside, the story sold the idea of the Imperium actively destroying its own for petty reasons), ect, ect). So it's not like the Imperium isn't made the villian either, it's just that those stories tend to get glossed over in favor of the current xenos punch up.

Oh obviously, and I'm not saying the Empire as a whole ISN'T evil/bad/there might be a more reasonable way to go around it. But I get the feeling from some here that whenever person A says the Empire is good/has to do the things it does, person B immediately responds they don't get it and are justifying a fascist/whatever you want to call it power fantasy. These people also exist surely, but it isn't weird for a lot of people to assume the Empire are the good guys when fluff like Gaunt's Ghosts exist. The Imperium at least has SOME good guys running around which was my point, when compared to a lot of factions that are all evil, all the time.

 Castozor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
Let's also not forget that while as a whole the Empire might be a weird pseudo Fascist-Theocratic Feudal state, the fluff often shows individual Imperial commanders as kind good-hearted individuals despite being Imperials. Contrast this with most Xenos and all Chaos characters as irredeemable evil people and it is not hard to see why some people might get the impression the Imperium are actually the good guys. The only other factions who get equally good-ish characters are Tau and arguably Eldar.

There are plenty of stories that put the Imperium against the Imperium as well, where a person with a lot of power is corrupt and abusing their position for their own goals (Faith and Fury, Penal Corps, Flesh and Iron (the author's plagarism aside, the story sold the idea of the Imperium actively destroying its own for petty reasons), ect, ect). So it's not like the Imperium isn't made the villian either, it's just that those stories tend to get glossed over in favor of the current xenos punch up.

Oh obviously, and I'm not saying the Empire as a whole ISN'T evil/bad/there might be a more reasonable way to go around it. But I get the feeling from some here that whenever person A says the Empire is good/has to do the things it does, person B immediately responds they don't get it and are justifying a fascist/whatever you want to call it power fantasy. These people also exist surely, but it isn't weird for a lot of people to assume the Empire are the good guys when fluff like Gaunt's Ghosts exist. The Imperium at least has SOME good guys running around which was my point, when compared to a lot of factions that are all evil, all the time.

I'd argue that we see good in other races too (Craftworld Trilogy for example), but Xenos books don't sell well so that leaves a heavy Imperium bias in the books.

As I said arguably Tau and Craftworld Eldar aren't outright evil too, but I agree Imperial to Xenos book ratio is saddening.

The (true, desirable) 40K aesthetic is a combination of two aesthetics: gothic, and camp. Gothic, though, is generally a form of camp, so the 40K aesthetic is a particular form of (scary, exaggerated) camp.

[The classic exploration of camp comes from Susan Sontag's famous essay: https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf ]

The errors in the 40K aesthetic rarely result from artists abandoning camp and trying to create a higher form of art; their aspirations are generally too modest, and their aims constrained by the game's legacy. Rather, 40K aesthetic failures are generally bad camp: they try to capture the gothic essence but fail. This produces things like the aforementioned Grey Knight slaughter of the Sisters of Battle, which is too gruesome to be enjoyable and too visceral to be dismissed. These sorts missteps can be endured without harming the overall setting, as they merely fail to add anything to setting, rather than actively subtracting from it.

The more egregious sorts of 40K aesthetic errors is that art which fails to comprehend the gothic nature of the subject at all. Consider Space Marines: they are transhumans who are gifted great powers in order to protect humanity, but those same powers elevate them above humanity, leading them to disdain and not fully understand those they are sworn to protect. One hundred neophytes die (or whatever) for every one who becomes a scout. Sometimes their implants go wrong, warping the body and degrading the spirit. Space Marines kill, and that's all that they do. The ridiculousness of this combined with the elements tragedy and horror make it good sci-fi gothic.

Compare this to Primaris Marines, who are Space Marines with even more powers, who sacrifice nothing to gain that power and suffer no consequences other than some side eye from existing Space Marines. It's not gothic and it's not camp. In a different setting, one with dominant themes of progress and hope (think Stark Trek) that sort of transhumanism could be interesting. In 40k it totally misses the mark.

40K's gothic camp needs to be bad but delightful. It needs to be dark but humorous. It needs to be violent but not repulsive. And it should not be good art, but a conscious warping of the tasteful aesthetic.

 Saber wrote:
Compare this to Primaris Marines, who are Space Marines with even more powers, who sacrifice nothing to gain that power and suffer no consequences other than some side eye from existing Space Marines.

You mean other than the original ones leaving a life behind during the Horus Heresy and awakening in an Imperium so unlike the one they knew when the Emperor still walked among man?

Or do you mean the upgraded Firstborn who have a ~60% failure rate for conversion?

Or do you mean the new recruits who have a higher failure rate than the Firstborn because more organs means more points of failure?

It isn't the details, it's in the feeling and theme it generates. Reading about Primaris very much gives the impression that they are better in every way and their gear is better in every way. Understandably many people find this to be bland and running against what 40k and Space Marines are supposed to be.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It isn't the details, it's in the feeling and theme it generates. Reading about Primaris very much gives the impression that they are better in every way and their gear is better in every way. Understandably many people find this to be bland and running against what 40k and Space Marines are supposed to be.

You mean the new things feel blander than the old things that have 25 years of built up lore and refinement?

 vipoid wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Right-wing government, very warlike, massively authoritarian, emphasis on racial purity. All sounds very fascist to me.

In fairness, the left-wing, Communist USSR was also very warlike, massively authoritarian etc.

(Not saying you're wrong about the Imperium being fascist - just that these characteristics are by no means unique to fascist governments.)

The Imperium is very clearly right-wing (with a noble class and everything) along with being obsessed with racial purity. That's what makes it distinct from an authoritarian left-wing state, and more like a fascist one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

(since the Immaterium basically reflects all the horrible gak they do back at them).

Oh they were a bit late on that since the Old Ones and the Necrontyr fought. The Immaterium got completely jacked long before Humanity came on the scene and twisted the souls desires regardless of how pure they came to be.

It's a continuous process, and the humans are making it worse because they're just awful people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:

In 20 years of being in this hobby I don't think I've once seen this. Closest has been that the Imperium is necessary insofar as the alternative - submission to Chaos - would be so much worse (which is true). The Imperium is an absolute nightmare state for 99.9% of the population, but at least you probably won't have your soul tortured for eternity when you die.

The alternative isn't "submission to Chaos." It's "let's stop being such hateful, corrupt piles of gak so both our lives suck less and we feed Chaos less.

And Arch and his cronies are a good example of people who think that the Imperium is laudable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

There is an underlying message of 40k that 'good' is relative. Yeah, the Imperium ARE good guys in the setting, despite being plenty awful enough to qualify as the bad guys in most others. That's how bad the state of the galaxy is; the brutal autocratic state is the better alternative.

Nope. The Imperium is the "most cruel and bloody regime imaginable." The Tau is the "we're doing horrible things because we're doing what we have to to survive" faction. The Imperium is the "We're cruel because we want to be, cruel to our own people and cruel to all others."

The Imperium's inability to fend off genestealer cults is a direct result of the Mechanicus being so selfish and backwards that they hoard technology that could be used to help rather than spreading it around. And probably people embezzling money at every step of the way, too.

I think its important to realise that the lore of 40K has multiple levels to it. If you only ever read the codex you get to one level; if you read fluff and bl books you get to another.


Most codex and casual mentions are summaries of events; they aren't in depth accounts like books are. So the summary gives an overview of events but doesn't get into the real depth.

So in summary a commissar will execute with impunity any guardsman they desire. But its through reading stories like Gaunts Ghosts that you start to see how that policy/approach pans out in the real world of the 40K setting. Between the two there's potential for imagination to create two very distinct impressions that can, whilst they are based on the same fact, be at odds with each other.





And its part of the lore that the Imperium isn't the best it could be, its a fallen empire in a 10K year massive depression and corruption spiral. It's the Roman Empire at its end; lasting through sheer size, but corrupt, rotten, insane, overburdened and religious zealotry. A casual glance can tell that the restrictions on technology, the idea of religious worship of the Emperor and many many other things are all false and which lead the Imperium to a vast state of, at best, stagnation and at common retardation in its capacity and ability to adapt, evolve and survive.


Primaris are the first real thing in 30 years of the game showing the Imperial side actually advancing technology; developing proper new tactics and new ideas. It's the first ray of what the old Empire had; a last shining beacon of what "could" have been. And even that blessing is cursed with political problems and runs a high risk of backfiring at some stage in the future.

SturmOgre wrote:

It should be noted however, that Stalinism is only communist under a rather broad definition of communism, and was viewed as either facist or protofascist by many contemporaries, including both Hitler and Mussolini. So, this might not be the best example.

I'm sorry, what? What are you even talking about?

Hitler et al. absolutely considered the USSR to be Communist and not remotely fascist or protofascist (indeed, they believed it to be a fundamental enemy of fascism). As did ordinary Germans. As did basically every other nation - including the USSR itself.

The only people who describe it as "fascist" or "protofascist" are modern-day Communist-apologists who still maintain that it is a glorious system of governance, and don't want to admit that it stands right along side fascism as one of the most diabolical, destructive and murderous regimes in human history.

Stalinism was an authoritarianism left, it doesn't describe the end result of the left no matter what, much like the end result of the right isn't facism no matter what. Both require authoritarianism governments to exist. Most can agree we'd rather see more libertarian policies over authoritarian ones.

NOW, getting back to 40k: comparing it to the end of the Roman Empire is fitting.

I feel like the biggest complaint people have is the new stuff, but then it's an issue that we're comparing the mountain of established lore built up over decades, and the new stuff which obviously isn't as deep or as broad just due to not having the same amount of stuff propping it up.

I'll never understand why people say the Imperium is a neccessity.

I mean, they aren't even in a better state than how humanity was in the dark age of technology. The Imperiul could fall and humanity would survive and maybe or maybe not rise again.

Is like saying after the Roman Empire civilization would collapse for all of eternity when it existed before it and in other grandeur states.

The stuff about the Imperium's harsh methods being necessary for the survival of mankind is in game propaganda that people are taking seriously.

There is obviously a better way to do things and the Imperium is making the galaxy a worse place and the negative aspects of Chaos stronger by having humanity live in absolute misery.

The Tech Priests of Mars have stopped humanity making any scientific advancements.

It is true however that the second generation of background writers make the same mistake, so this kind of crap IS true in modern 40K (and by modern I guess I really mean most stuff written post 2005 or so?). It is all a lot of newer fans know, and I guess saying it is not really what 40K is rings hollow.

But I just do not want any part of a setting that makes up a bunch of threats to justify an awful fascist regime like the Imperium (quibble over the definition and delete the word fascist if it upsets you for some reason) and makes them be the good guys. It borders on apologia and although it is trivial and unimportant it is distasteful to me to be honest, and I think a pretty gross perversion of the original spirit of the game.

I disagree that the "second generation" has made that mistake with so many of the last generation still being involved in the writing.

I think the thing they're doing is the same thing they've tried doing back in 3rd where the writing is biased and from the perspective of the Imperium but people take it at face value just like they took it at face value when people often talk about 3rd.

"It's necessary" depends on the point of view. If you consider all that has come before the Imperium then yes, in its current 40K era it is necessary and logical.

Even if its foundations are purely illogical; very situational and ultimately highly variable across its entire size.



Another take is if the Imperium wasn't how it is now and took more "sensible" choices through its history then they'd have continued to advance science with a vast unstoppable warmachine and high Xenophobia. They'd have wiped out all other races by now. If we look at it logically then we'd only have the odd Necron uprising on fringe worlds where they haven't yet been rooted out and destroyed; a very rare Eldar skirmish from the last of their hiding Craftworlds and the Tyranids.

Orks would be burned out and heavily controlled; Tau wouldn't have a chance etc...




Basically the Imperium as a gothic crumbling half insane slowly bleeding to death beast is almost essential to promote generations and millenniums of warfare

 Da Boss wrote:
The stuff about the Imperium's harsh methods being necessary for the survival of mankind is in game propaganda that people are taking seriously.

There is obviously a better way to do things and the Imperium is making the galaxy a worse place and the negative aspects of Chaos stronger by having humanity live in absolute misery.

The Tech Priests of Mars have stopped humanity making any scientific advancements.

It is true however that the second generation of background writers make the same mistake, so this kind of crap IS true in modern 40K (and by modern I guess I really mean most stuff written post 2005 or so?). It is all a lot of newer fans know, and I guess saying it is not really what 40K is rings hollow.

But I just do not want any part of a setting that makes up a bunch of threats to justify an awful fascist regime like the Imperium (quibble over the definition and delete the word fascist if it upsets you for some reason) and makes them be the good guys. It borders on apologia and although it is trivial and unimportant it is distasteful to me to be honest, and I think a pretty gross perversion of the original spirit of the game.

Do you think part of the problem is that so many stories (as well as games and other media) revolve entirely around Space Marines?

And so for the purposes of such stories, they almost always end up feeling like heroic protagonists, rather than brutal, fascist zealots. At the very least, they can generally be expected to be facing a greater evil (Chaos, Orks, Tyranids) and so they come across as the good guys if only by comparison.

I think the problem starts in 3rd to be honest. But I disagree anyway, recent background has completely removed ambiguity from the question of whether the Emperor was alive on the Golden Throne for example, and characterisations of Chaos for a long time, and just a lot of background over a huge period of time has sort of shifted Chaos from the "Maybe they are not totally bad" column to the "Cartoon Villain" column while gradually making it 100% clear that the Imperium "needs" to do this stuff or else awful things happen. It also definitely has made the Ultramarines out to be very noble and nice.

At the same time as that, the Ork psychic field stuff has gone from being a bit of Imperial propaganda to the accepted baseline fluff, and Machine Spirits have gone from a joke about how Tech Priests don't get technology to an actual thing in the background where apparently all sufficiently complicated tech gets a weird soul.

It is definitely the case that as the background has been expanded and deepened, they have had to make decisions about some of this ambiguous stuff, and the decisions they made have 100% tended to make the Imperium POV "the right one" over many decisions and novels over many years and many authors.

And it just gets to the point where people are saying unironically that the Imperium are the good guys and getting excited over the sort of awful ends justifies the means gak that justified every fascist regime ever. Note, I am NOT saying that means those fans are fascists or that this is a particularly big deal or Warhammer needs to be cancelled, but I definitely find it offputting.

 vipoid wrote:

And so for the purposes of such stories, they almost always end up feeling like heroic protagonists, rather than brutal, fascist zealots. At the very least, they can generally be expected to be facing a greater evil (Chaos, Orks, Tyranids) and so they come across as the good guys if only by comparison.

I'm not even sure Chaos counts as a "greater evil" if we were generous with them the way we are with the Imperium.

I mean after all, there may be tortureplanets where the entire population are sewn together into a giant blob of self-aware skin that is unable to scream, but there's also planets with functioning societies! There are schools, markets, authority structures (implying police and emergency responders), etc.

 vipoid wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
The stuff about the Imperium's harsh methods being necessary for the survival of mankind is in game propaganda that people are taking seriously.

There is obviously a better way to do things and the Imperium is making the galaxy a worse place and the negative aspects of Chaos stronger by having humanity live in absolute misery.

The Tech Priests of Mars have stopped humanity making any scientific advancements.

It is true however that the second generation of background writers make the same mistake, so this kind of crap IS true in modern 40K (and by modern I guess I really mean most stuff written post 2005 or so?). It is all a lot of newer fans know, and I guess saying it is not really what 40K is rings hollow.

But I just do not want any part of a setting that makes up a bunch of threats to justify an awful fascist regime like the Imperium (quibble over the definition and delete the word fascist if it upsets you for some reason) and makes them be the good guys. It borders on apologia and although it is trivial and unimportant it is distasteful to me to be honest, and I think a pretty gross perversion of the original spirit of the game.

Do you think part of the problem is that so many stories (as well as games and other media) revolve entirely around Space Marines?

That is certainly a major problem for 40K lore. Ignoring the Tyranids, who are a special case, its honestly pitiful how many Xenos books we have after 30 odd years. One thing Age of Sigmar has right is that whilst stormcast are popular and appear a lot; there are still a lot of stories about other races doing other things and being heroes in their own stories. Now the lore has got huge issue because of how it was put together in an afternoon by a few mangers. It lacks dates (not that 40K's dates work because some are very messed up event wise); some lore on factions is very sketchy and thin so when authors interpret it yo ucan get two or three take very different pathways - though the "realm" system sort of masks them for this a bit .

I've always felt the Marines come off as very 10-ply with how easily their "honor" gets injured and they go off and do something stupid. Many of them, protagonists too, seem to not have the emotional maturity that should be needed for the sort of power they wield, making them more like kids playing Soldier.

Probably what makes them such effective tools for the Imperium I guess.