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 LunarSol wrote:

Xenos are tough. I think GW were really hoping to consolidate Eldar into something more manageable to revamp but it didn't really come together.

Oh man, if only GW could consolidate Eldar into a single faction for no reason whatsoever. That would totally help them release more Eldar models. Somehow.

Let's just ignore the fact that there are more than twice as many Primaris Lieutenants as there are units in the entire Harlequin codex. I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with Eldar of all colours getting somewhere between bugger and all.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Stormcast have issues like bad rules that keep them from being quite as nuts with. Which is even sadder since they've seen the most updates in AoS.

Space Marines have been absurdly popular even at their worst. Strong rules definitely help bring the tournament players onto the bandwagon sure, but short of being outright unplayable it doesn't impact on popularity that much. Fyreslayers have been A-tier for most of 2.0, but they're still pretty unpopular outside of tournaments and vice versa for the Kharadrons.

 LunarSol wrote:
Ork's are a close second but seem to be getting a slow feed of new releases.

Orks aren't even remotely near a close second. In fact, I think only necrons are in less need of updates right now.

Orks really need no more than a revamp of their finecast characters(just like everyone else), tank bustas, kommandoz and a propper kopta. If GW really wanted, they could do that as part of a regular codex release wave.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.

I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.

GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.

Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.

 catbarf wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.

I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.

GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.

Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.

I'm not saying they aren't profitable, but I feel people WAY overblow how much money GW makes on any given sale. The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's price. Probably more likely somewhere between 5-10%. Now older kits, that have basically "paid for themselves" (as in made back all the money spent to make them) are likely 80-90% profit (no 100% because there is always labor), but a lot of those kits date back to 3rd and 4th edition, if not even older.

Considering the volume GW has been dealing in, a volume that they struggle to keep up with even before COVID, it's clear that they make money like every company does: volume.

That said, the online store likely makes them the most money, which in a year where everyone is stuck at home and ordering online, is safe to say has contributed massively this year to their profits.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.

I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.

GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.

Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.

I'm not saying they aren't profitable, but I feel people WAY overblow how much money GW makes on any given sale. The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's cost. Considering the volume GW has been dealing in, a volume that they struggle to keep up with even before COVID, it's clear that they make money like every company does: volume.

That said, the online store likely makes them the most money, which in a year where everyone is stuck at home and ordering online, is safe to say has contributed massively this year to their profits.

Im pretty sure people complaining about the price don't care how much of it is profit going to GW

 vipoid wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Xenos are tough. I think GW were really hoping to consolidate Eldar into something more manageable to revamp but it didn't really come together.

Oh man, if only GW could consolidate Eldar into a single faction for no reason whatsoever. That would totally help them release more Eldar models. Somehow.

Let's just ignore the fact that there are more than twice as many Primaris Lieutenants as there are units in the entire Harlequin codex. I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with Eldar of all colours getting somewhere between bugger and all.

Well this supposedly had something to do with a cancelled 2nd wave of harlequins because they didn't sell well on release. Can't find the original source but there was an AMA with an insider somewhere on here who explained why the range was so small.

Ynnari is very evidently the framework for a range consolidation or possibly a "codex aeldari" with supplements on top. If you were going to relaunch a faction, holding back on their releases makes some sense.

The lack of love for craftworlds and harlies has been shocking so far and now sisters are re-established they need the most TLC.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW is, objectively, ripping us off. They're putting out kits costing far more than they need to to turn a profit.

I don't think that's objective at all. I feel like people just see the price tag and assume that's all profit, but that's not really how it works. Like I outlined to Karol, a lot of stuff goes into the cost of a product that drives up the cost of the product, even if the materials used to make the product are cheap.

GW's been turning literal record profits for the past two years- their financials are public, you can look them up yourself.

Whether that's justifiable by shareholder-driven constant need to expand or saving for a rainy day gets totally into subjective factors, but objectively, GW's costs are demonstrably higher than they need to be to keep the lights on.

I'm not saying they aren't profitable, but I feel people WAY overblow how much money GW makes on any given sale. The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's cost. Considering the volume GW has been dealing in, a volume that they struggle to keep up with even before COVID, it's clear that they make money like every company does: volume.

That said, the online store likely makes them the most money, which in a year where everyone is stuck at home and ordering online, is safe to say has contributed massively this year to their profits.

Im pretty sure people complaining about the price don't care how much of it is profit going to GW

Which is why I tried to point out that a large portion of the price is a need to pay their employees, and for the equipment used to make the models. GW doesn't outsource everything so it means all their stuff is going to cost more. They pay their employees pretty decently and that means they're going to need to charge more for stuff. Sure, GW is still making money hand over fist, but a large portion of that money is going back into the company.

I'm pretty sure Covid will have negatively impacted GW's sales.
People can't play games, so there's little drive to buy more stuff to play with.

I would be very surprised if GW only made 10% profit on a kit, they sell at less than that to retailers, and they'd still want to make a profit even if they're not directly selling it.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm pretty sure Covid will have negatively impacted GW's sales.
People can't play games, so there's little drive to buy more stuff to play with.

I would be very surprised if GW only made 10% profit on a kit, they sell at less than that to retailers, and they'd still want to make a profit even if they're not directly selling it.

GW runs an online store and saw MASSIVE sales spikes online. A lot of people spent a lot of time basically stuck at home. With all that free time, why not work on that dream army project?

And I was saying that 10% would be included in what they charge the stockist, with the gap between what they charge and the box price being the profit for whatever store it's going into (or in the GW store's cases, how they pay the bills for that store with any left over money then being a profit on top of that). The online store instead pockets most of that money since the digital store front doesn't need to make as much money to pay for it's upkeep.

The Primaris Lt thing is interesting. We see them as unique models because they're sold to us that way, but for the most part they're not in any way. For the most part they're just parts of whatever unit they were bundled with. The latest one is just a Bladeguard Sgt with a NeoVolkite pistol. The originals were Intercessor sculpts. Almost every one of them could have been swapped with a sculpt from the unit, which is likely all they really are.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The price gap between what they charge independent stockists and customers is likely their gross profit margin, the margin they can shave off since it doesn't need to go to keeping the store's lights on, pay the employees, pay the insurance, ect, but the net profit? Maybe 10% of a kit's price. Probably more likely somewhere between 5-10%. Now older kits, that have basically "paid for themselves" (as in made back all the money spent to make them) are likely 80-90% profit (no 100% because there is always labor), but a lot of those kits date back to 3rd and 4th edition, if not even older.

The idea of a new kit having a small profit margin and old ones being mostly profit is purely an analytic fiction, though- the organization's ongoing costs are paid by both, and both have the same raw material/labor/transportation costs. I mean, the basic comparison of how much a kit has sold versus how much it cost to make is useful from a business management perspective (what should you make more of), but determining profit margins on a specific kit requires taking amortization schedules into account and it gets complicated. If you amortize the cost of production over ten years of expected sales, your profit margin gets a lot higher than if you need to recoup the up-front design/tooling costs in a year's sales. And that's not even looking at loss leaders or regional pricing.

Which gets back to my point- there's no objective way to determine what a kit 'should' cost, just as there's no objective way to set the price of a single videogame, mp3, or DVD, but we can look to the company's overall financials to get a sense for their economic viability. If a company is making money hand over fist (which GW has been, even before 2020), then they demonstrably have room to reduce prices while still maintaining profitability. Whether they should is another matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sure, GW is still making money hand over fist, but a large portion of that money is going back into the company.

That's why we're talking about profit, not about revenue. Profit is what's left over after all that money is taken into account, and GW's making a lot of it.

According to the 2019-2020 annual report, GW reported a revenue of 269.7 million pounds, and an operating profit of 90 million pounds. There's some complicated stuff involving tax but broadly speaking about three-quarters of their revenue went to operational costs, and the remaining quarter was profit (for expansion, reinvestment, and shareholders).

GW could have cut all revenue sources (prices on models, paints, books, licensing, etc) to 75-80% of current values for the year, and- even if we assume that this would result in no increased volume of sales whatsoever- they'd still break even.

Again, I'm not saying they should. Just that the idea that these are all unknowns, and maybe GW's prices really are the bare minimum they need to stay solvent, is just not true. They're making a ton of money, and 2019-2020 is no exception; they've drawn this sort of profit for some five years running, with revenue roughly doubling over this period. The reports are all public.

I don't think GW's prices are the bare minimum they need to operate, but I do think that prices aren't so far beyond where they should be either. A common thing that comes up is a confusion of value for cost. People say things cost too much because they value them lower then the cost. It doesn't mean value is wrong, it's just that it gets misidentified.

If anything Covid has seen an increase in profits for GW rather than the opposite. The primary market for their games are the middle-class and the middle-class in most western societies has made out brilliantly from the pandemic. They're still working and earning, and spending less money on other things like travel and so have extra disposable income and time with which to invest in their hobbies. Doesn't matter if you can't play any games right now when you're looking to the future or you're just a person that collects and paints.

 Da Boss wrote:
People get annoyed as they realise the game is designed around Marines as the Protagonist faction, and Marine players are the protagonists in the game.
Other Imperials are like the plucky sidekick character, sometimes a fan favourite but definitely second string.
Chaos are the big baddies, skeletor style that always talk big but get beaten by the protagonist in the end.
And Xenos are basically NPC factions, just there for colour and variety to give the Space Marines something to beat up in the first scene of the story before the True Threat (chaos) arrives.

That is how 40K is designed, but some Xenos players and even Chaos and Imperial players think they are playing a game about different factions that are roughly equal in esteem and narrative importance. When they realise the truth, that they invested hundreds of dollars or euros or even pounds into their army and it is nothing more than an NPC afterthought designed to have the crap beaten into it to allow Marine players to have their power fantasy, they get upset.

Then they have a choice! They can join the Marines, or maybe get a Chaos faction since that gets a fair amount of attention as the True Threat, or leave the game. There is usually a bit of complaining before they make the choice, because of how much time, money and emotional energy they have invested in their second string faction.

That is ultimately what all these threads are about. It would be better if GW would advertise this up front, but they kinda do in how they group stuff on their site if you look.

I wanted to quote this from back on page 3, as this thread has turned into a rant on pricing, production, etc ( as all GW threads are wont to do) and people seem to have missed it.

This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The primary market for their games are the middle-class and the middle-class in most western societies has made out brilliantly from the pandemic.

I mean demonstrably and obviously no, they super havent but go off.

That is true and its something GW should be honest about as well. Just make the game system " Space Marine 40,000 " as of now they kind of run it like other factions matter, when really, as you say, it's space marines and who either help them or try to stop them.

 Phobos wrote:
...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem. GW makes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.

Which leads to some people having an issue. Either they need to just come right out and say the bias, or fix the very obvious bias.

I think fixing it would do wonders to not only let marine players relax every now and then but also let some other players get a long time in the sun free from the monthly primaris LT or next slew of marine model bloat tossed out.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Which leads to some people having an issue. Either they need to just come right out and say the bias, or fix the very obvious bias.

I think fixing it would do wonders to not only let marine players relax every now and then but also let some other players get a long time in the sun free from the monthly primaris LT or next slew of marine model bloat tossed out.

I'm pretty sure the bias has been obvious for ages. I mean Marines got the first plastic kit, and they're literally the sale promo material:


Let's be honest: it's never not been obvious that Marines are THE poster child.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem. GW makes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.

1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.

ccs wrote:
...1at: They have no reason to change what's working for them.
2nd: Marines have been the stars of 40k since RT hit the shelves & this isn't changing any time in your lifetime. So you'd best reconcile yourselves with that fact.

Obviously. There's no possible reason that one army shouldn't be vastly over-supported and everyone else should have to wait a decade between releases. It's the best strategy to make any game work and we all need to shut up, stop whining, and get used to it, because there's no way GW ever changes anything in response to consumer complaints, like when they deleted USRs or made vehicles and MCs use the same statlines or got rid of D-weapons or gave everyone the same CP dependent on game size and penalized taking extra detachments or started giving out mono-faction bonuses...

If whining never worked sure, folks would get fed up and stop whining, but with GW whining sometimes works.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GW makes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.

I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.

But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.

Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.

 Phobos wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GW makes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.

I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.

But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.

Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.

You think they axed my precious WHFB just because it had no identifiable main faction? I find that very odd, considering that when I think of AoS I do not immediately think Sigmarites. In my mind AoS has an as varying and non-main faction cast as WHFB did, albeit it with vastly worse fluff and rules. No they axed WHFB because they killed it themselves. From what I heard WHFB sales were tanking, probably related to their own mishandling of the rules and accompanying price increases. People who shelved out 30 euros for 16/20 troops were now expected to pay 20 for 10 while the rules demanded you fielded more of them than ever. For once the GW crowd did the right thing and gave them the finger for that behavior.

 Castozor wrote:

 Phobos wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GW makes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.

I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.

But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.

Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.

You think they axed my precious WHFB just because it had no identifiable main faction? I find that very odd, considering that when I think of AoS I do not immediately think Sigmarites. In my mind AoS has an as varying and non-main faction cast as WHFB did, albeit it with vastly worse fluff and rules. No they axed WHFB because they killed it themselves. From what I heard WHFB sales were tanking, probably related to their own mishandling of the rules and accompanying price increases. People who shelved out 30 euros for 16/20 troops were now expected to pay 20 for 10 while the rules demanded you fielded more of them than ever. For once the GW crowd did the right thing and gave them the finger for that behavior.

100% absolutely. YOU don't think of Sigmarines when you think of AoS, because you already had a relationship with the game in its prior incarnation. So to YOU AoS is Orcs or Undead or whatever you liked. But this isn't about you (or me, or anyone who played before) and what they think. This is about a rebranding, and putting a new face on it with a main protagonist just like 40K and what NEW players are going to think.

Who features prominently on all new Sigmar marketing materials? Look at this box:



That is Crypt Hunters, the single boxed game sold in Barnes and Noble, aimed at getting new gamers into the hobby. Who is on the cover? What does the bottom text say? Who do you think is the protagonist of Age of Sigmar?

It is literally the only explanation that makes ANY sense. If it was about blob units and cost of entry, WHFB as a setting didn't need to go away. Games Workshop needed a clean slate to work from to develop the new story with Sigmarines at the center of it.The fact that WHFB was nearly dead and had poor sales and yadda yadda yadda is likely what convinced them that starting fresh and making it more like 40K with a central faction is the right thing to do.

 Castozor wrote:

 Phobos wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
...This is really it in a nutshell. Space Marines are the heroes of the story, and as such people want to be the hero so they choose Space Marines. Ergo, GW makes more Space Marines, and people buy more, and the cycle continues.

I like the other factions. They are what gives 40k its flavor. But they are supporting characters. It sounds harsh, but really this is something the playerbase either needs to accept or if they can't then move on. Nothing is going to change it. And I say this as someone whose favorite faction is Thousand Sons.

There are a lot of miniature wargames in the world. Approximately none of them other than 40k/Sigmar have ever had this problem . GW makes a lot of other miniatures games that don't have this problem. In the transition from WHFB (which didn't have a protagonist faction to eat a larger percentage of releases) to Sigmar (which does have a protagonist faction that eats a larger percentage of releases) we got to see GW creating the problem for themselves. GW could choose to make fewer Space Marines and support other factions properly and still run a perfectly viable business. They choose not to.

I've bolded your mistake.You keep using the word problem. And maybe to you, it is.

But to Games Workshop it most certainly is not a problem. It is working exactly as designed.

Why do you think they flushed 30+ years of history down the drain with the end times and rebooted as Sigmar? It had nothing to do with copyright issues and EVERYTHING to do with brand identity. It was to create the "problem" of a poster faction, because for all it's rich lore and history, that was the one thing that WHFB lacked. When you think of Warhammer 40K, you think space marine. Sigmar and Sigmarines exist so that when you think Age of Sigmar, you think Sigmarine.

You think they axed my precious WHFB just because it had no identifiable main faction? I find that very odd, considering that when I think of AoS I do not immediately think Sigmarites. In my mind AoS has an as varying and non-main faction cast as WHFB did, albeit it with vastly worse fluff and rules. No they axed WHFB because they killed it themselves. From what I heard WHFB sales were tanking, probably related to their own mishandling of the rules and accompanying price increases. People who shelved out 30 euros for 16/20 troops were now expected to pay 20 for 10 while the rules demanded you fielded more of them than ever. For once the GW crowd did the right thing and gave them the finger for that behavior.

As much as the community will shift blame the community was to blame too. They created a meta that pushed the game to stay at 2k+ points and had no interest to make the game more accessible to newer players.

There was blame on both sides (8th was peak Kirby's claims of the game being second to the models for example), so let's not pretend GW killed the game alone, the community helped.

Imagine wanting the game/hobby/community to not be better this hard.



This is a thread for talking about fatigue with the direction the hobby has been taking. Not for bashing everyone who doesn't love GW and it's only two important factions
oh god I can't actually believe this is a take that people have unironically? For real, trash opinion.
If this were really the case, you just straight up wouldn't be able to play other factions, they'd be AI like the enemies in Blackstone Fortress.
It's so egotistical that you think that all of those other designs, armies, rulesets and players only exist to fluff you. Like, genuinely astonished that this is a position not only being argued, but by more than one maniac fanboy here?
I don't think I've seen a SINGLE SOUL here trying to say Marines aren't the posterboys. This isn't in dispute. The issue stems from how beyond asymmetric the release schedule has gotten, how bloated and mind numbing it feels to know there's another fething bolter profile, while factions like DE have had options stripped out of their codex for years, and yet are somehow being trotted out as a faction that should stop whining because they got a grand total of 2 new kits last edition.

I know this is a bit steep, but for real. If you think that other armies, other players exist just to give marines something to stomp, you should really take a second to stop and think about what you're doing in the community.

ClockWorkZion wrote:As much as the community will shift blame the community was to blame too. They created a meta that pushed the game to stay at 2k+ points and had no interest to make the game more accessible to newer players.

There was blame on both sides (8th was peak Kirby's claims of the game being second to the models for example), so let's not pretend GW killed the game alone, the community helped.

Nonsense. 'The community' isn't a monolithic block that groupthinks and acts the same.

Different people in different areas had different approaches and playstyles. There is no need whatsoever (and no truth whatsoever)to blame 'the community' for cutting out new players and preventing sales.

Warhammer players function in groups of 2 to maybe 20, with some exceptions. All those little groups don't force anything in unison.

Voss wrote:

ClockWorkZion wrote:As much as the community will shift blame the community was to blame too. They created a meta that pushed the game to stay at 2k+ points and had no interest to make the game more accessible to newer players.

There was blame on both sides (8th was peak Kirby's claims of the game being second to the models for example), so let's not pretend GW killed the game alone, the community helped.

Nonsense. 'The community' isn't a monolithic block that groupthinks and acts the same.

Different people in different areas had different approaches and playstyles. There is no need whatsoever (and no truth whatsoever)to blame 'the community' for cutting out new players and preventing sales.

Warhammer players function in groups of 2 to maybe 20, with some exceptions. All those little groups don't force anything in unison.

And yet there is a meta. Competitive play trickles down directly and indirectly (either people who play competetive, and by building competetive net lists respectively). There was a serious problem in the larger WFB community, even if there were smaller groups who did what they could to bring on new players.

I mean 8th is the edition that sales for all of WFB dropped below the sales of JUST Space Marines. WFB wasn't even a top 10 selling game at the time. The game was hemmoraging old players and failing to bring in new ones.


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 posermcbogus wrote:
Imagine wanting the game/hobby/community to not be better this hard.

Spoiler:

you aren't getting a second interview, no matter how hard you whiteknight here, boys.

This is a thread for talking about fatigue with the direction the hobby has been taking. Not for bashing everyone who doesn't love GW and it's only two important factions
oh god I can't actually believe this is a take that people have unironically? For real, trash opinion.
If this were really the case, you just straight up wouldn't be able to play other factions, they'd be AI like the enemies in Blackstone Fortress.
It's so egotistical that you think that all of those other designs, armies, rulesets and players only exist to fluff you. Like, genuinely astonished that this is a position not only being argued, but by more than one maniac fanboy here?
I don't think I've seen a SINGLE SOUL here trying to say Marines aren't the posterboys. This isn't in dispute. The issue stems from how beyond asymmetric the release schedule has gotten, how bloated and mind numbing it feels to know there's another fething bolter profile, while factions like DE have had options stripped out of their codex for years, and yet are somehow being trotted out as a faction that should stop whining because they got a grand total of 2 new kits last edition.

I know this is a bit steep, but for real. If you think that other armies, other players exist just to give marines something to stomp, you should really take a second to stop and think about what you're doing in the community.

No one is disagreeing that the Marine releases are overblown and got out of control since the Primaris were announced. Even the most die hard Marine players admit it. It was more a point that it's not recent that Marines got the lionshare of the studio's attention and pretending it was a new change was disingenuous.

But go on, pretend you have some moral high ground because people point out you were wrong, and then strawman them all into a position no one is taking.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


No one is disagreeing that the Marine releases are overblown and got out of control since the Primaris were announced. Even the most die hard Marine players admit it. It was more a point that it's not recent that Marines got the lionshare of the studio's attention and pretending it was a new change was disingenuous.

But go on, pretend you have some moral high ground because people point out you were wrong, and then strawman them all into a position no one is taking.

So why are you defending the state of things so far? If they - in your words "got out of control" how is this not a "new change"? We all know that it's not a recent thing that marines have dominated the release schedule, but the scale - the number of consecutive months when they've dominated previews, dominated release slots, campaign books, codex updates, box sets in the last few editions, at the pace they've been doing it is clearly alienating players.

Even if we look at the so-called big releases like GSC, Admech, even death guard the totals of kits, the multiples of unit types are dwarfed significantly be the attention that Marines have been getting, and where all of those release slots had an end, with, in most cases, no tangible schedule for future releases that marines get.
I don't recall having this many profiles for bolt weapons in any other edition of the game, nor the acceleration that we keep seeing.

All of this is a real factor in how people, such as myself and OP, are finding ourselves frustrated and burned out at the current state of affairs. A change of pace would absolutely make the game healthier.

Your bleeding heart act that "oh, it really is terrible that marines dominate the 40k output of GW" is pretty unconvincing when you continue to agitate for "no-one disagree with me because GW have been doing this for years, and so it's completely fine and shouldn't change." Call it strawmanning all you want, but I'm just reducing your points down. People are fed up with it becuase it sucks. If you're not, fine, whatever, bet you'd fit in really well in the GW facebook comments.