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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well, the "kill secondaries" are all over the place.

If you gotta have them in the first place, it should be equally hard/easy to get your 15 points on a horde army, a vehicle/monster army, a bike army, an elite infantry army, etc.., etc..,

If anything, assuming the "core" concept gets rolled out to everyone similarly, there might even be an argument for making it harder to get points of (mostly non-core) vehicles / monsters compared to armies focussing on elite infantry, as that would introduces a trade-off in list building.

E.g., just using the Space Marine book as a limited examples, it probably should be something like "do I take the somewhat less efficient non-core tanks/vehicles like Predators, Gladiators, whatever, that don't use character buffs as well and struggle more on the primary, but THAT army gives up less/no secondaries, or do I take efficient core infantry units like Bladeguard, Vanguard Vets, Intercessors, etc, that make more efficient use of buffs and are generally good at the primary, but as a downside THAT army probably should bleed secondaries a lot more".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 11:04:48


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Bosskelot wrote:
The way Marines are set out currently is just so obviously a bad idea it boggles the mind. They get about 50% more than anyone else ruleswise but pay nothing for these bonuses. Games are built on choices and decisions, with strengths being countered by drawbacks. Just look at the stupid amounts of stacked bonuses a chapter like BA gets and then see if they pay any extra points for these incredibly powerful mechanics. Of course they don't, but they also never will, or in the process of making them pay extra points, GW will cause issues for other chapters.


I don't disagree with this analysis - but I'm not sure on the conclusion.

The major issue with Marines is that their "buff architecture" (or perhaps to use a term from World of Warcraft, "Borrowed Power") - far exceeds that of other factions. Its possible, slowly, GW is going to roll out the same to all other factions, but certainly for the last 18 months its been near one-way traffic, with the possible exception of Sisters. (New Crons sort of lean in this direction - but their doctrines are incredibly fiddly to set up, at least after turn 1 or 2)

So yes, you get a "stat block/datasheet rules" like all factions do. But then you get bolter discipline, shock assault, doctrines and super doctrines - on top of generally superior conventional buffs to other factions.
When you look at something like Harlequins, I don't think the issue is buff on buff on buff. Its that the units are just undercosted following the 9th edition rules changes, and general points increase.

But this could all be factored in by points. A Marine - as a bolt gun toting 2 wound T4 3+ save model should cost *more* under the Marine Codex than the same sort of stats would be in another codex. Yet if you try and do comparisons to say Tau, you in fact find the opposite.

Yes, you probably can't balance an assault-focused unit so its *the same value* if its Blood Angels, White Scars etc - or if its Imperial Fists. But this is true of just about every unit in every other faction in the game. Its intrinsic to the Chapter Tactic system. The problem with Marines is just that some of these abilities (White Scars for me) - are so ludicrously off the scale compared to what other older factions get. Is it really a problem if unit X is better in chapter Y and so obviously worse in chapter Z? This seems a burden every other faction in the game suffers under.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 11:21:13


 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Kall3m0n wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.


Admech has been seeing some pretty major releases regularly since they were dropped. Almost keeping pace with Marines.

Guard are due for an update IMHO, but Guard also had the deepest forgeworld selection up until FW starting axing those models and then became just about producing Horus Heresy.


There are also a few competitive players that are faction loyal, usually to an imperial faction.



I'm not looking for a fight now, and I don't really know the "stats", but exactly how is Admech almost keeping pace with SM?
Hasn't Admech gotten a tank, dogs, copter and their jump infantry? That's four units. I've probably missed one, so say five.
How many has SM gotten the past two years?



admech has basically got a release every 6 months during 8th. they havnt kept up with marines numbers but they did stay close in frequency.

Tech Priest Maniupulus

Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Disintegrator

Daedalosus

Archaeopter Fusilave
Archaeopter Transvector
Archaeopter Stratoraptor
Pteraxii Sterylizor
Pteraxii Skystalker
Serberys raiders
Serberys Sulfurhounds

So they got 11 kits (6 boxes) in 4 waves. they still took a decent part of the release.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



Dudley, UK

Racerguy180 wrote:
Karol is fun to pick on, but they are a product of their fethed up meta. Their perspective would be very different if they were introduced to the game in a chill and permissive environment. Hell it would've been really unfun to start the game in 8th with one of the weakest factions in a meta where OP eldar is course du jour. But that's no excuse for how they seem to paint all eldar players with the same brush.

I really hope the other factions get more love. for the health of the community and game as a whole.



Karol is also a literal child. Bear that in mind and be a little kinder when engaging with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Castozor wrote:
Harlies shouldn't even be a standalone army to begin with but here we are anyway. But having never played against them, SM were a problem even in casual play because their base power was incredibly high whereas harlies apparently weren't like that.


Harlequins have been a standalone army for longer than the Craftworlds, let alone my beloved Drukhari

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 14:06:00


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Tyel wrote:
Its possible, slowly, GW is going to roll out the same to all other factions, but certainly for the last 18 months its been near one-way traffic


Two points with this:

1) GW could easily update all factions at the start of the edition. Instead, it chooses to draw out the new codex releases over a period of years. And then once every faction has an up-to-date codex, they'll either start releasing buff supplements one at a time or else just go into the new edition and start the cycle all over again.

It amazes me how many fans will fanatically defend GW's anti-customer policies.


2) But let's say that you believe the above to be an absolute necessity. In this case, there's no reason why the 9th edition Marine book needs to be stronger than the others (notwithstanding possible loss-of-function due to core abilities/strategies no longer functioning in the new edition). They don't need to just pile on new buffs and abilities for little to no cost. They could easily not add such things in the first place or else add drawbacks to counter them.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



Dudley, UK

stratigo wrote:
There hasn't been a big enough tournament. Currently, when they do go out, the very top competitive players are mostly refining and testing. With all the big big tournies on lockdown, there's less reason to go with what is appearing to be the top top meta, or going with a list that is antimeta.

There are also a few competitive players that are faction loyal, usually to an imperial faction.


"Wait and seeeee..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Imagine not fixing your own army and telling the other player THEY need to adjust to YOUR needs.


Imagine having a game balanced enough where this isn't necessary...


That'd pretty much begin & end with Chess & Go.


Lolno. When I play Infinity I don't have to have a conversation with my opponent about what units they're allowed to bring or not; I'm confident that pretty much no matter what we bring, the game will be decided by who plays better. Once you start looking outside of the GW bubble you realize their balance is bad. Really really bad.


LOL yes.
GW? I've known what GW is/isn't for decades. And outside the tourney scenes? I've yet to encounter a minis game where we haven't discussed what type of game/xp we're aiming for. This includes your precious Infinity.


Oh my, the infinity games against non-deploying opponents. Vexing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 14:14:33


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

There are big tournaments being run (check out goonhammer for some data) in countries that actually handled the COVID outbreak with a modicum of common sense. Harlies still have like a 3% playrate. I guess only 3% of the player base actually cares about winning, since they're the Strongest Army. Good reason not to balance for competitive play if 97% of players aren't competitive.

The alternative is that Harlequins are not the Strongest Army, but I'd hate to contradict any of the posters here for risk of starting a fight.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 14:54:48


 
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






 Jidmah wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't disagree. 40k has a lot of elements that really shouldn't be here if you wanted to make a fun game.
Superheavies, particularly entire factions of them (Knights) will inherently skew whatever games they're a part of. Equally but oppositely you have massive hordes of Gaunts or Guardsman which just skew things the other way.
How can you possibly create a balanced list that can equally deal with 4 Knights or 400 Guardsman? It's just not possible and that's a big problem for the game, which is what leads to this general "rock, paper, scissors" feeling of list building.


I don't know, some of the new secondaries do that rather well. As an ork player, bringing vastly more than 120 boyz is now a liability because of Thin Their ranks.
Knights mostly suffer from being unable to hold multiple objectives well and also give up 10 VP for just killing a single one.

Other kill secondary aren't balanced as well, but these two work rather nicely IMO.


Giving a few VP on a sec mission, which are anyway capped at 15, is by no means a deterrent to play a massively skewed list.

GW could just cap the number of models one can bring at 120 or something, and the number of superheavies or vehicules or monsters etc to prevent skew list. The fact that they seem to never go that way means they need to come up with other stuff.

I think the VPs is a good way to even things out. Perhaps we could have SOME (not all) kill secondaries bring more than 15 ? Otherwise I honestly would not mind a cap on model count (120 models, 10 vehicules/monsters, and the list goes on and on), but it is probably a slippery slope, and not good for selling models to whales. And I really think GW do not want to that (though they did do rule of 3, something I never thought they would do)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There are big tournaments being run (check out goonhammer for some data) in countries that actually handled the COVID outbreak with a modicum of common sense. Harlies still have like a 3% playrate. I guess only 3% of the player base actually cares about winning, since they're the Strongest Army. Good reason not to balance for competitive play if 97% of players aren't competitive.

The alternative is that Harlequins are not the Strongest Army, but I'd hate to contradict any of the posters here for risk of starting a fight.


Even a comp dude (or dudette) knows that by the time he has his/her clown army painted and ready to win, down come the nerf hammer in the guise of point increases all over the board. I have played GSC since 7th edition, so I know the drill. It is just a matter of time. It does seem like a fun army to play though, so anyone who loves the fluff, the aesthetics, and can stomach a whack of the nerf bat, go for it !
Also, if like me you have to paint your own models because otherwise you feel it will never truly be "your own army", then you need skill ! lots of it ! A clown army painted by anything other than a top tier painter looks ugly as sin. Sad but true. I think that reason alone explains how rare they are, even at tournaments, even though they are currently top dog

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 16:53:46


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




If anything, assuming the "core" concept gets rolled out to everyone similarly, there might even be an argument for making it harder to get points of (mostly non-core) vehicles / monsters compared to armies focussing on elite infantry, as that would introduces a trade-off in list building.


The problem is, it's already not been rolled out similarly right out of the gate. Not sure I'd count on CORE for helping much of anything going forward.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:


LOL yes.
GW? I've known what GW is/isn't for decades. And outside the tourney scenes? I've yet to encounter a minis game where we haven't discussed what type of game/xp we're aiming for. This includes your precious Infinity.


The difference is, if you don't have that conversation, 40k will often be a car crash. Infinity will work fine; its balance, mission design, and unit design are far better than 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I've not really played, but my theory crafting tells me secondaries only discourage taking a 'combined arms' approach.


Which is hilarious because GW seems to say, on the surface, that they want people to take a combined arms approach... and then they make rules which reward people for skew/spam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 18:53:20


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Hecaton wrote:
ccs wrote:


LOL yes.
GW? I've known what GW is/isn't for decades. And outside the tourney scenes? I've yet to encounter a minis game where we haven't discussed what type of game/xp we're aiming for. This includes your precious Infinity.


The difference is, if you don't have that conversation, 40k will often be a car crash. Infinity will work fine; its balance, mission design, and unit design are far better than 40k. .


Sure CB could be seen as better than GW (many are). But Agrue & deny it all you like, I'm sure that were I to brush up on current infinity rules I could find something to play that'd make you wish for that conversation.
None if these companies are perfect.. and each of us could well have different ideas/preferences. Wich, outside tourney play (where I dont give a damn about my opponents preferences, only that they loose)is why we have such conversations. Now if you & I were playing and we'd had this conversation? Then it wouldn't need repeating. We'd already be on the same page.
If we'd not played before? Or play together infrequently? Yeah, were having it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
Sure CB could be seen as better than GW (many are). But Agrue & deny it all you like, I'm sure that were I to brush up on current infinity rules I could find something to play that'd make you wish for that conversation.


Uh... no. I go to tournaments where people run the best lists they can. Doesn't stress me out. The difference is that in Infinity, power comes from decisions made on the table more often than decisions made at the listbuilding step. I doubt you could come up with a list that would stress me out - I've played against some of the best and done just fine.

Put simply, you're wrong on a pretty fundamental level.


ccs wrote:
None if these companies are perfect..


No, and I criticize CB when it's warranted. But CB's rules balance is on another level compared to GW's.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 21:05:33


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







ccs wrote:
...Sure CB could be seen as better than GW (many are). But Agrue & deny it all you like, I'm sure that were I to brush up on current infinity rules I could find something to play that'd make you wish for that conversation...


After the 15-order limit, the Muttawiyah AVA nerf, and the EM nerf? I honestly can't think of anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Catulle wrote:
...Oh my, the infinity games against non-deploying opponents. Vexing.


-Don't play five-order lists. Heavy armour (TAGs, expensive HI) are like tanks in other games, you need a skirmish screen or the enemy will be able to sneak up on them and whack them.
-Find a source of Sixth Sense (there's usually a model or two with it on their profile per faction, plus any four-man fireteam gets it) or an MSV3 (rarer/more expensive, but very helpful) to negate Surprise Shot.
-Shotguns (Mimetism -6? Range mod +6. No visor necessary.), mines/templates (dodging requires you reveal the model).
-Sensor-bots (Every faction's got cheap fast models with Sensor, it doesn't require LOF, the area is huge, and you don't even need to know the hidden model's there).

The tools to counter null-deploy/camo-spam are many and varied. It's hard to have none of them if you aren't either deliberately building a list around having none of them, or deliberately building a one-dimensional joke list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 22:42:52


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Kall3m0n wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.


Admech has been seeing some pretty major releases regularly since they were dropped. Almost keeping pace with Marines.

Guard are due for an update IMHO, but Guard also had the deepest forgeworld selection up until FW starting axing those models and then became just about producing Horus Heresy.


There are also a few competitive players that are faction loyal, usually to an imperial faction.



I'm not looking for a fight now, and I don't really know the "stats", but exactly how is Admech almost keeping pace with SM?
Hasn't Admech gotten a tank, dogs, copter and their jump infantry? That's four units. I've probably missed one, so say five.
How many has SM gotten the past two years?



Well if one of the unbiased space marine fans made the claim i'm sure it's basically equal. Let's see, just from memory, we've had...

New Techpriest
New fat laser guy techpriest
Skitarii horses
Skitarii Plane
Skitarii transport
Skitarii Wingalings

And for space marines

Infiltrators/Incursors
Suppressors
Phobos libby
Phobos Captain
Phobos Lt
invictor warsuit
Flying Rhino
Repulsor Executioner
Eliminators
Outriders
Biker Chap
Invader ATV
Gladiator
Assault Ints
Judicar
Heavy Ints
Eradicators
Bladeguard
Storm Shield Captain
Gravis Captain
Bladeguard Ancient
Volkite Lieutenant
Flying...thing, tank guy
Drop Pod Turret
Dude Wired In Turret


...Not to mention chapter-specific characters, ~12-15 of those, upgrade packs, limited release models, Space Marine Heroes...

So, you know. About the same. Basically neck and neck.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Keep in mind that's all the AdMech stuff released in all of 8th edition, so the SM stuff should include the initial Primaris wave as well (Intercessors, Aggressors, Hellblasters, Reivers, Repulsor, Gravis Captain, loads of Lieutenant sculpts, Primaris flag-dude, Repulsor, Inceptors).

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 AnomanderRake wrote:
Keep in mind that's all the AdMech stuff released in all of 8th edition, so the SM stuff should include the initial Primaris wave as well (Intercessors, Aggressors, Hellblasters, Reivers, Repulsor, Gravis Captain, loads of Lieutenant sculpts, Primaris flag-dude, Repulsor, Inceptors).


Sure, that'd be reasonable, but since the person I was replying to said "2 years" I knew people would cry foul, just like they would have if I included all the subfaction-specific marine units (I did also include all the subfaction-specific Admech units, though)

Cue all the space marine players chiming in to say how they HAD to release 50 new kits in 2 years to replace such ancient trash as the devastator kit from 7th edition or the venerable dreadnought from 6th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 23:56:49


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I feel wading into infinity chat is difficult because I've not played for ages - but I think the point is that player skill differentials are *extreme* and so *obvious*. Unless N4 or whatever has changed things, the odds are you will lose your first 10 games of infinity if playing with anyone who knows what they are doing.

I'm not actually sure modern 9th edition 40k is so different - but for some reason its assumed you line up on the deployment line and run at each other. Then roll some dice until someone falls over. And if one faction falls over less than the other, its clear faction imbalance the end. But this isn't really how decent players play - even if list/faction imbalance is a thing.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






the_scotsman wrote:
(I did also include all the subfaction-specific Admech units, though)


huh?
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Tyel wrote:
I feel wading into infinity chat is difficult because I've not played for ages - but I think the point is that player skill differentials are *extreme* and so *obvious*. Unless N4 or whatever has changed things, the odds are you will lose your first 10 games of infinity if playing with anyone who knows what they are doing.

I'm not actually sure modern 9th edition 40k is so different - but for some reason its assumed you line up on the deployment line and run at each other. Then roll some dice until someone falls over. And if one faction falls over less than the other, its clear faction imbalance the end. But this isn't really how decent players play - even if list/faction imbalance is a thing.


It is absolutely true that the skill bar to start playing Infinity is way higher than it is to start playing 40k. The point people are trying to make with the comparison is that it's way harder to lose Infinity when list-building than it is with 40k; in Infinity you can use any models so long as you've got a variety of tools to handle different types of targets, while in 40k you need to make sure that a) you've got the tools to handle a variety of targets, b) you aren't using any units that give up secondary objective points too easily (ex. playing GK), c) you aren't using units that are unplayable purely on cost-effectiveness (ex. Land Raiders), d) you have the required support stack to make everything function, e) you're taking either minimum units to spread out as much as possible or maximum units to maximize stratagems/psychic buffs, f) you're deploying as little on the table as you can get away with so you can play Reserves chicken, g) you're only using units that can efficiently interact with your stratagems, and h) GW has seen fit to grant your Codex the speed to get first-turn charges, the durability to sit in the middle of the table and not die quickly, or both.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/18 01:13:15


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 VladimirHerzog wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
(I did also include all the subfaction-specific Admech units, though)


huh?


Point being that every other army doesn't get those but they "dont count" as marine models because reasons.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Tyel wrote:
I feel wading into infinity chat is difficult because I've not played for ages - but I think the point is that player skill differentials are *extreme* and so *obvious*. Unless N4 or whatever has changed things, the odds are you will lose your first 10 games of infinity if playing with anyone who knows what they are doing.

I'm not actually sure modern 9th edition 40k is so different - but for some reason its assumed you line up on the deployment line and run at each other. Then roll some dice until someone falls over. And if one faction falls over less than the other, its clear faction imbalance the end. But this isn't really how decent players play - even if list/faction imbalance is a thing.


I don't think anyone is arguing that skill doesn't matter for 40K and wins or losses are driven solely by game balance. It's more that an army's performance is at least as much driven by listbuilding as by in-game decisions, whereas in Infinity it's primarily gameplay and listbuilding takes a back seat. For a total newbie, you lose your first ten games of Infinity because you don't know what you're doing, not because you don't know what you're doing and half the units you brought are crap, none of them synergize, and you need to drop another $300 to get a working army.

   
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 addnid wrote:

Even a comp dude (or dudette) knows that by the time he has his/her clown army painted and ready to win, down come the nerf hammer in the guise of point increases all over the board. I have played GSC since 7th edition, so I know the drill. It is just a matter of time. It does seem like a fun army to play though, so anyone who loves the fluff, the aesthetics, and can stomach a whack of the nerf bat, go for it !
Also, if like me you have to paint your own models because otherwise you feel it will never truly be "your own army", then you need skill ! lots of it ! A clown army painted by anything other than a top tier painter looks ugly as sin. Sad but true. I think that reason alone explains how rare they are, even at tournaments, even though they are currently top dog


absolutely, all those super competitive guys will never buy a skew list or a top tier meta army just to play for a few months...that never happens. I was a bit astounded by how many players decided to buy Knights, and how many bought guardsmen...but only 32 of them.

Likewise, I was a bit shocked when 8th dropped at how many SM players had whole armies comprised of Stormravens. Even more surprised at how many Iron Hands Space Marine players were also top tier tournament players...weird.

Sarcasm aside, yeah, if Harlequins were actually top tier you would see a MUCH bigger swing for them. Compare current tournament results to 8th edition meta lists.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
Even more surprised at how many Iron Hands Space Marine players were also top tier tournament players...weird.


Yes, who knew that every other SM player (of any caliber) just so happened to have nearly the same IH force built, painted up, & sitting there in the closet/on the shelf and only revealed it in 2019....

And now? Where'd they all go?
   
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ccs wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Even more surprised at how many Iron Hands Space Marine players were also top tier tournament players...weird.


Yes, who knew that every other SM player (of any caliber) just so happened to have nearly the same IH force built, painted up, & sitting there in the closet/on the shelf and only revealed it in 2019....

And now? Where'd they all go?


Sadly, they all suffered from Argyria (silver poisoning) and turned blue. But on the reverse, I've never before seen so many Ultra Marine lists.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 addnid wrote:

Even a comp dude (or dudette) knows that by the time he has his/her clown army painted and ready to win, down come the nerf hammer in the guise of point increases all over the board. I have played GSC since 7th edition, so I know the drill. It is just a matter of time. It does seem like a fun army to play though, so anyone who loves the fluff, the aesthetics, and can stomach a whack of the nerf bat, go for it !
Also, if like me you have to paint your own models because otherwise you feel it will never truly be "your own army", then you need skill ! lots of it ! A clown army painted by anything other than a top tier painter looks ugly as sin. Sad but true. I think that reason alone explains how rare they are, even at tournaments, even though they are currently top dog


absolutely, all those super competitive guys will never buy a skew list or a top tier meta army just to play for a few months...that never happens. I was a bit astounded by how many players decided to buy Knights, and how many bought guardsmen...but only 32 of them.

Likewise, I was a bit shocked when 8th dropped at how many SM players had whole armies comprised of Stormravens. Even more surprised at how many Iron Hands Space Marine players were also top tier tournament players...weird.

Sarcasm aside, yeah, if Harlequins were actually top tier you would see a MUCH bigger swing for them. Compare current tournament results to 8th edition meta lists.


It is much easier to buy a built and painted space marine army than a harlequin one. I see marine armies up for sale everyday but almost never Harlequins. It is also much easier to add one or two units to an existing space marine army than to buy a whole new one.

Most players probably already have a core of marines and are content even when very competitive to lose a tiny sliver of advantage over getting a whole new army and learn to play it. If marines were crap and much weaker than you would probably see more do the leap. But why spend a few hundred $ and a few hundred hours(including practice time) in getting those Harlequins ready and hope the next release won't make Harlequins bad in the meta.

Harlequins are probably one of the most meta sensitive armies around since they can't really change units. Which is quite bad news for anyone who wants to jump in on army of the month. The way gw releases rules means that you never know more than a month in advance if huge changes will happen or not. Too much work for too high a risk to commit to Harlequins if anything changes.

If GW came out and said they will only release new codex/rules together with chapter approved once a year more would probably commit to getting the best army at the time. Even if it took them 2-3months to get their new army up and running they would still have a guarantee of 6+ months with it dominating. Now you are as likely as not to be the best army at the next event if you buy them now.
   
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Ease of use is always a factor in competitive gaming. Harlequins very well may be the strongest overall army in 40k currently, but they're also the hardest to paint, one of the hardest to collect and one of the hardest to actually play well on the tabletop. This links in to my earlier post about Marines always being frustrating to play against because they have a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling, yet remain one of the strongest armies in the game still. Why bother playing such a risky skill-intensive army like Clowns when you could just pick an assortment of models from Indomitus or one of the Combat Patrol boxes and basically have a competitive list that could go 4-1/5-1 at a GT no problem? You saw this happening during the end of Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty's life, where Terrans were switching en masse from the army to play Protoss or Zerg. Even though winrates looked fairly equal between the 3 races it obscured 2 major problems:

1) Terrans were only ever winning early game and could not stand up to lategame Protoss or Zerg whatsoever, especially in a meta and with a map pool that favoured long macro games to the exclusion of everything else

and

2) Terran was a few orders of magnitude harder to play than the other 2 races.

For people trying to climb the ladder and even professional players, they started to drop the race because they could play Zerg instead and get similar or better results, but for 50% less effort and stress.

If two armies have a roughly 50-50 winrate, yet one has to basically play out of their mind to even reach parity with the other faction that is basically just unga bunga'ing across the board then that isn't balanced, no matter what the percentage says. If you are hyper competitive and truly only care about being the best, then just pick a top tier and top tiers are usually that way for a variety of factors but also because their risk factor is incredibly low. They're usually safe picks that can do multiple different things very well in all manner of situations and have very few hard counters or glaring weaknesses. There does usually have to be an element of skill or mechanical requirement to them though, just to allow for skill depth to shine through and to stop them being completely braindead dominant because if you have a competitive game and the best race/character/whatever is also the easiest to play then your game has some serious issues.

That SC2 example before? The game was haemorrhaging players and viewers during that time. When Dota 2 has had metas where the easy to play unga bunga heroes have been buffed too much it's been a really negative experience for players and viewers too.

(essentially, your easy to play things should have a limit on what they can achieve because otherwise it's unhealthy for the game as a whole. Dota 2 and LoL have "pubstomp" and beginner heroes that basically never see competitive or high level play, and at times when they do because of bad balance patches it's always a negative experience)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/18 07:23:15


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Noctis Labyrinthus

SemperMortis wrote:


Sarcasm aside, yeah, if Harlequins were actually top tier you would see a MUCH bigger swing for them. Compare current tournament results to 8th edition meta lists.


Oof, I understand disputing them being the best army in the game (they are, they have comparable or better play rates to the very best Space Marine chapters while being harder to paint, harder to play, as well as being a much more niche faction in eighth, while also having as many or more top four wins than any other faction), but I couldn't imagine being so deluded as to suggest they aren't even top tier.

Keep on coping my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bosskelot wrote:

(essentially, your easy to play things should have a limit on what they can achieve because otherwise it's unhealthy for the game as a whole. Dota 2 and LoL have "pubstomp" and beginner heroes that basically never see competitive or high level play, and at times when they do because of bad balance patches it's always a negative experience)


No, they shouldn't. Those "pubstomp" heroes (in League at least) aren't kept undertuned because they're easy. They're kept undertuned because their kits have unhealthy interactions or a lack of interaction that makes them far too reliable.

Ashe is a fairly common staple of high elo and professional play despite being one of the most brain-dead ADCs in League.

Something being harder to play doesn't give you the "right" to be more powerful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/18 08:05:12


 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
 Kall3m0n wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.


Admech has been seeing some pretty major releases regularly since they were dropped. Almost keeping pace with Marines.

Guard are due for an update IMHO, but Guard also had the deepest forgeworld selection up until FW starting axing those models and then became just about producing Horus Heresy.


There are also a few competitive players that are faction loyal, usually to an imperial faction.



I'm not looking for a fight now, and I don't really know the "stats", but exactly how is Admech almost keeping pace with SM?
Hasn't Admech gotten a tank, dogs, copter and their jump infantry? That's four units. I've probably missed one, so say five.
How many has SM gotten the past two years?



Well if one of the unbiased space marine fans made the claim i'm sure it's basically equal. Let's see, just from memory, we've had...

New Techpriest
New fat laser guy techpriest
Skitarii horses
Skitarii Plane
Skitarii transport
Skitarii Wingalings

And for space marines

Infiltrators/Incursors
Suppressors
Phobos libby
Phobos Captain
Phobos Lt
invictor warsuit
Flying Rhino
Repulsor Executioner
Eliminators
Outriders
Biker Chap
Invader ATV
Gladiator
Assault Ints
Judicar
Heavy Ints
Eradicators
Bladeguard
Storm Shield Captain
Gravis Captain
Bladeguard Ancient
Volkite Lieutenant
Flying...thing, tank guy
Drop Pod Turret
Dude Wired In Turret


...Not to mention chapter-specific characters, ~12-15 of those, upgrade packs, limited release models, Space Marine Heroes...

So, you know. About the same. Basically neck and neck.


That is a pretty close list there, I knew Ad Mech were the chosen ones, chosen to get marine levels of support. ( Sarcasm just in case it wasn't noticed. )
   
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Infiltrators/Incursors
Suppressors
Phobos libby
Phobos Captain
Phobos Lt
invictor warsuit
Flying Rhino
Repulsor Executioner
Eliminators


with these release slots alone you could've easily made a R&H faction work.

Command squad
Malefic lord
Disciples
Militia
Mutant
Enforcer
rogue psykers.

Yet the later bunch sits now in legends with more braindead rules and internal balance then 7th edition as a whole whilest the other is the unending tide of Power armored nonsense.

In fact, you could've also taped in with the other slots an update to craftworld aspects AND corsairs.

Goes to show gw's "preferences" , actually favouritism is the better word.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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NE Ohio, USA

Not Online!!! wrote:
Infiltrators/Incursors
Suppressors
Phobos libby
Phobos Captain
Phobos Lt
invictor warsuit
Flying Rhino
Repulsor Executioner
Eliminators


with these release slots alone you could've easily made a R&H faction work.

Command squad
Malefic lord
Disciples
Militia
Mutant
Enforcer
rogue psykers.


Goes to show gw's "preferences" , actually favouritism is the better word.


Of course. But you know what making R&H work wouldn't do? Make them the desired amount of $.
   
 
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