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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah I wasn’t a fan of the smiling bone Tyranids.

I think they'll come into their own once they get a few more medium to big kits released where you really get to see them shine for creative construct monsters.

 Overread wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah I wasn’t a fan of the smiling bone Tyranids.

I think they'll come into their own once they get a few more medium to big kits released where you really get to see them shine for creative construct monsters.

How often do Sigmar armies get kits after their initial release? Off the top of my head I can't remember any other than the Stormcast.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah I wasn’t a fan of the smiling bone Tyranids.

I think they'll come into their own once they get a few more medium to big kits released where you really get to see them shine for creative construct monsters.

How often do Sigmar armies get kits after their initial release? Off the top of my head I can't remember any other than the Stormcast.

Slaanesh is getting a second wave, but arguably that's just bringing them up to line with the other God-armies in that they had no Mortal units who weren't Hellstriders.

There's been Endless Spells, the odd terrain piece and occasional one-shot Hero but that's about it for anything non-Sigmarine.

Lumineth getting a second wave's probably inevitable since Tyrion is such an important character with half of their lands tied to him, so there's that.

And you know Tyrion's going into a second Lumineth wave instead of a whole new dragon-elves army?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And you know Tyrion's going into a second Lumineth wave instead of a whole new dragon-elves army?

He's literally mentioned in the army book as 2nd part of LRL forces. Technically, all non-elemental units are Tyrion's elves.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah I wasn’t a fan of the smiling bone Tyranids.

I think they'll come into their own once they get a few more medium to big kits released where you really get to see them shine for creative construct monsters.

How often do Sigmar armies get kits after their initial release? Off the top of my head I can't remember any other than the Stormcast.

Slaanesh is about to get some new kits and Blades of Khorne got new kits during the release of Wrath and Rapture along with Slaanesh. Then there is a single model for Daughters of Khaine that just came out recently in a box and I expect a few kits as addons to existing armies if the Broken Realms series imitates Psychic Awakening.

Ultimately I think AoS has been catching up the entire 2.0 edition and providing relevant factions - both existing and lorewise - with tomes and groundwork for their armies. The real question is what will happen now with Broken Realms and the inevitable 3.0 that will probably come out next year.

GW has also technically been doing stealth kits for AoS through both Warcry and Warhammer Underworlds. Some of the Underworld kits are surprisingly useful as alternatives to heroes. The DoK kit provided a Hag Queen, the FEC gang brought us a Crypt Ghast Courtier, and so on and so on.

So new kits after tome release is not unheard of.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah I wasn’t a fan of the smiling bone Tyranids.

I think they'll come into their own once they get a few more medium to big kits released where you really get to see them shine for creative construct monsters.

How often do Sigmar armies get kits after their initial release? Off the top of my head I can't remember any other than the Stormcast.

Age of Sigmar has had a very blighted history.

At launch its important to remember AoS was NOT a wargame. It was a boutique model line. It was made with four grand alliances and no formal rules system. The idea being that GW could create lots of smaller armies and add to them or remove them and it wouldn't harm players because they'd not be collecting an army and if they were they'd be in one of the four grand alliances. With no point costs, no unit limits, no formal rules etc.... it was basically just buying cool models. It explains why they dropped armies so quickly and also why they shattered some into fragmented forces. The idea was to cut anything that wasn't selling rather htan GW's typical approach to revamp and invest and get them selling etc...

It was a disaster.

GW threw out a few 0.5 rules and then some 1.0 - battletomes which were basically nothing but warscroll cards (unit stats).

Then GW got their act together and changed AoS back to wargame. The launch of 2.0 (well just before) started this process and they spent the whole of 2.0 updating things. We lost some forces, we gained some others and GW sorted everything out. It was honestly a huge amount of releases ,but spread over the whole game. One or two armies got a lions share of attention - Stormcast, Nighthaunt, Gloomsptie - many got a token model or two and some got nothing.

Recently we are seeing GW going back to some armies, Slaanesh is getting a second wave, Daughters of Khaine have got a few more models from Underworld and Warcry. Second waves DO and will happen, its just the scale of the thing when it comes to AoS so not every army can get attention at the same time. But it is happening and one bonus is that the small armies do work in AoS. Heck some of them have been the most powerful at various stages of the balance cycle.

 Overread wrote:

At launch its important to remember AoS was NOT a wargame. It was a boutique model line. It was made with four grand alliances and no formal rules system.

This idea that there was no formal rules is untrue. It had rules for movement, charges, shooting, melee, morale, spell casting, etc. What it completely lacked were rules on army building.

Rules for army building or in this case lack there of is a pretty large and glaring flaw, so large and glaring even its staunchest supporters stepped away and GW had to reverse the course on the good ship stupid and actually make rules for it so you could reasonably set up and play a game.

At the end of the day don't lose sight of the fact that is how disconnected the company is from their own game they didn't, for around about a year, think that was an issue and it was instead the players who were wrong and didn't appreciate the greatness of AoS with take however much you want approach.

Yes, I'm well aware of that glaring flaw in AoS 1.0 I'm one of those that walked away. And then back with 2.0
Sure, a few of us with existing WHFB armies gave it a shot using 8e army construction rules. But that completely locked out using anything new & made it harder for new players to join. And our Tomb King & Bretonian players just spent the next year sulking in rage. So we just played a few games of 8e or whatever & more WWII....

That flaw completely killed the game at the local shop though. So much so that the shop simply stopped carrying AoS stuff & gave it's shelf space to X-Wing or something.
With 2.0 & army building rules back things improved in 2019 when a few of us started a Path to Glory league. And then a pandemic came along....

yeah my point with that was just people need to realize this company can make huge mistakes, so perhaps not think they actually really know what they are doing at all times with rules or what the people want.

Sorry to hear about the lack of traction due to pandemic. I will say WHFB was like my favorite side game, I didn't play it much but it was always a lot of fun when I did. I was very sad to see it die and AoS never got to me. Felt too much like old timey 40k in look with how it was played and I played Fantasy for the block battle formations.

ccs wrote:

 Overread wrote:

At launch its important to remember AoS was NOT a wargame. It was a boutique model line. It was made with four grand alliances and no formal rules system.

This idea that there was no formal rules is untrue. It had rules for movement, charges, shooting, melee, morale, spell casting, etc. What it completely lacked were rules on army building.

No it lacked a formal rules system at launch.

What it did have was the "AoS Unhinged" rules system. Ergo a joke system* with "get +1 attack if you've got a beard whilst playing as dwarves" type rules. Jovial, childish and when coupled to a lack of any points and a lack of any formal army building system of any kind; it was a lack of any proper rules. It wasn't until months later that GW pushed out 1.0 and even that was clearly a panic plaster until they got around to 2.0 where it basically restarted the whole process.


There's an interview or two out there which reveals more of how it all came around - it seems lower staff pandering to a "middle" kinda manager resulted in a mess. Apparently they even had formal rules and everything in design for launch, but dropped it to support management objectives/desires etc...




* I should note that I have no problem with fun/jovial rules systems. The issue with AoS (as well as everything else) was that they didn't just give us silly rules, but they took the formal rules away and, at launch, gave no impression that they'd ever give them back.

Hey I grew a beard out for that dwarf rule !! I was so immersed I even drank much ale and a strong helmet, lived under a mountain and dug for gold. Those rules were amazing.

I remember being pretty open to the idea of AoS as a looser, skirmish style version of the game with simple rules, where you could grab a bunch of models and throw down for a game. I was pretty into that idea, because the nature of 8th ed had been pretty off putting to me (needing these huge blocks of infantry that would probably just be blasted off the board before they got to do anything anyway).

But those rules were very disappointing, and clearly had not had much thought put into them. Stuff like Double Turn continued that trend in my opinion, and I have been put off getting into AoS by the current rules as well, because there are some pretty glaring problems in my view.

Luckily Age of Fantasy exists which actually delivers the kind of experience I wanted.

ccs wrote:

Table wrote:

Karol wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

ccs wrote:
...I think I covered that with "for some reason or other". If everything was equal you'd still find something....

So you want to listen to the same complaints over and over again instead of new complaints?

the complains are always the same. Either it is my dudes don't have or other dudes have something. The only difference is how good with words specific posters are and that is more or less it.

It is interesting to read other people get angry though.

Some complaints are vaild. There are far greater differences in dark eldar releases in both frequency and quality when compared to Space Marines. I play Thousand Sons (incase it mattered).
Are you going to tell us there is no Space Marine oversaturation? Because that would be interesting.

Well, I explained my thoughts on that already (probably about 90 pages ago by now) concerning the Primaris.
In a nutshell though? What you're all screaming about is an illusion. You're watching the slow roll out of an entirely new product line (Primaris) stretched over a 3+ year period vs being dropped on you all at once within a 6-8 week window (ex: Sisters of Battle).
So yes, there's a steady trickle of (Primaris) Marine releases.
Meanwhile you're selectively choosing not to acknowledge any of the non-Primaris releases (SoB, Necrons, etc) that've been occurring during this period because the existence of those doesn't support the narrative your trying to convince everyone of that only Marines get support.

I have never said the non marines get no support. So I am not sure how proceed on with this. You have already butchered my post's points and questions. I am trying to type this in as non-verbally salty way possible by the way. I am neither angered by your post or wish you any ill will.

You can say that its a new line stretched over three years. And that may be so. But look at HOW MUCH has been introduced in those three years. It is on the amount of two to three other factions combined. There is a problem. Most people see it. I do as well.

I really don't get where the problem is suppose to be. GW only make large runs for model lines that are either being relaunched, like DG or SoB, or for stuff they know that will sell 100% of time, which is more or less marines for them.

Every other thing in AoS and w40k gets mini releases at best with maybe 2-3 units, and a bunch of characters or support units. And that is even true for new factions in AoS , why should GW risk losing money on production and storage of something they may not sell, when marines always sell. That is like asking a food company, why isn't it making healthy food.

Expressing frustration with a situation does not mean you don't understand why it is happening.

Karol wrote:
I really don't get where the problem is suppose to be. GW only make large runs for model lines that are either being relaunched, like DG or SoB, or for stuff they know that will sell 100% of time, which is more or less marines for them.

Every other thing in AoS and w40k gets mini releases at best with maybe 2-3 units, and a bunch of characters or support units. And that is even true for new factions in AoS , why should GW risk losing money on production and storage of something they may not sell, when marines always sell. That is like asking a food company, why isn't it making healthy food.

How do you know updated Eldar/Orks/whatever won't sell? GW barely makes any. Are the armies less popular because there's inherently something worse about them, or because the design team doesn't like them and they're stuck with 15-20 year old minis?

Orks are already one of the most expensive armies to build, upgrading their perfectly fine plastic kits to more expensive kits with less models will for sure not spark any joy in ork players.

Yeah, a lot of the ranges are pretty complete. I don't see much of a case for upgrades really. There are loads of awesome kits even just in the Xenos lines.

There was no guarantee GSC were going to sell, yet they still did them.

How well do you think GW expected random Gloomspite Gitz characters or the Sneaky Snufflers to sell? Yet they still did them.

This idea that certain models or ranges are immune to updates because they aren't Marines is a ridiculous and stupid argument to make. If that was the case there literally would be no other product GW would sell.

I'm sure their Specialist Games and LOTR sell less than some 40k armies, but they still produce and make profit off of them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are already one of the most expensive armies to build, upgrading their perfectly fine plastic kits to more expensive kits with less models will for sure not spark any joy in ork players.

New model lines exist to make investors happy and not players. If an ork players has to buy 5 man boxs to make their army valid, those that want to play orks will do it often enough for GW to be happy.

How do you know updated Eldar/Orks/whatever won't sell? GW barely makes any. Are the armies less popular because there's inherently something worse about them, or because the design team doesn't like them and they're stuck with 15-20 year old minis?

It isn't about what I know. It is about what GW knows. They have all the data they need. They know much it costs them to make new xeno models, produce them and then how many they will sell of them, if they make a specific amount of them. If GW was sure that by investing and making a new model line, the cost will generate an good , from GW stand point, sells they would do it. But it is risky bussiness, so they don't do it often. Ad mecha and DG got full reworks in 8th, as far as armies go. But everyone else just got HQs here and there, and everything else was double dipping. Either by being demons an being sold for w40k and AoS, or by being primaris and sold to every space marine player.

The work time on a new marine model and line, costs at best the same if we want to weight it in favour of xeno model lines, and the cost to make them is the same as for primaris marines. But unlike with primaris GW can't be sure, and I would even risk that they can estimate the size, of other model lines sells. There for making big lines of models for xeno factions gives GW no extra money, can lose them money if they don't sell, while same time spend on primaris does not bring any such risk. Why would they ever want to risk acting in anyway different? It is like trying out a new kid in front of ministry inspectors, risking the whole school budget on this new kid , maybe, doing okey. You wouldn't do that, you would show off the school stars, the event winners, those that can go professional and who bring in sponsors etc.

Da Boss wrote:Expressing frustration with a situation does not mean you don't understand why it is happening.

Wait, non-marine players particularly Eldar players are frustrated in their lack model updates/new releases? Is this just on DakkaDakka, or could I find people commenting the same on the wider internet? Next you're going to tell me more than a handful of players worldwide don't absolutely love everything about space marines and more so Primaris. /sarcasm

Ribbing aside, I think a lot of people share that frustration, but there isn't a lot that can be done about it. Games Workshop is going to release what they are going to release. Like I said many pages ago, blaming Primaris model releases is as productive as blaming Necormunda, Adeptus Titanicus, Blackstone Fortress, etc. I think it is apparent that GW wants to sure-fire sellers and brand-new elements over re-treads or expansions to existing factions. The big exception being Chaos Space Marines. Which I am at a loss how they happened given the moves GW has made. Even the Sisters of Battle made more sense given the extreme age of the line and the constant chatter about it online. If you were to ask me a few years ago, I would have probably even said Eldar would have seen a refresh before CSM as they always seemed to be a little more, or just as, popular and had way less plastic kits.

Jidmah wrote:Orks are already one of the most expensive armies to build, upgrading their perfectly fine plastic kits to more expensive kits with less models will for sure not spark any joy in ork players.

Every time I see someone say that they want updated Ork models I am left very confused. I am all on board on getting rid of the finecast stuff and Orks need to get back a lot of the HQ units for certain. I can go even further and say if GW doesn't want to make Nobs Troop choices, I think releasing a 'Ardboys kit as a more elite Troops option could go a long way. But I think more than any other model, Ork Boyz, Burnas and Lootas hold up fantastically.

I have been a big fan of GW's more modern designs as all my 40k armies now composed model kits less than 6 years old. Every now and again, I get tempted to expand on my extra large Ork kill team. All it would take is a couple of Start Collecting boxes, and I think I would have about a 1000pts. As much as I like the newer designs, I can't see GW improving Orks to compensate for the increase in price. Price is already the biggest issue to me creating an Ork army. Newer re-do's of the older stuff would completely close that door.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Orks are already one of the most expensive armies to build, upgrading their perfectly fine plastic kits to more expensive kits with less models will for sure not spark any joy in ork players.

Every time I see someone say that they want updated Ork models I am left very confused. I am all on board on getting rid of the finecast stuff and Orks need to get back a lot of the HQ units for certain. I can go even further and say if GW doesn't want to make Nobs Troop choices, I think releasing a 'Ardboys kit as a more elite Troops option could go a long way. But I think more than any other model, Ork Boyz, Burnas and Lootas hold up fantastically.

I have been a big fan of GW's more modern designs as all my 40k armies now composed model kits less than 6 years old. Every now and again, I get tempted to expand on my extra large Ork kill team. All it would take is a couple of Start Collecting boxes, and I think I would have about a 1000pts. As much as I like the newer designs, I can't see GW improving Orks to compensate for the increase in price. Price is already the biggest issue to me creating an Ork army. Newer re-do's of the older stuff would completely close that door.

Agree. I know almost all ork players on this board though, and the vast majority of people crying for new models are either collectors who won't buy more than a box or two anyways, or people who don't play orks at all.

Orks only need stuff here and there. Eldar, & everything finecast needs to be plasticized.

that should fill up the release schedule for a while, especially given GW's inability to NOT release astartes.

Karol wrote:
New model lines exist to make investors happy and not players. If an ork players has to buy 5 man boxs to make their army valid, those that want to play orks will do it often enough for GW to be happy.

Or, they'll move on to other minis games or leave the hobby.

Karol wrote:

It isn't about what I know. It is about what GW knows. They have all the data they need. They know much it costs them to make new xeno models, produce them and then how many they will sell of them, if they make a specific amount of them. If GW was sure that by investing and making a new model line, the cost will generate an good , from GW stand point, sells they would do it. But it is risky bussiness, so they don't do it often. Ad mecha and DG got full reworks in 8th, as far as armies go. But everyone else just got HQs here and there, and everything else was double dipping. Either by being demons an being sold for w40k and AoS, or by being primaris and sold to every space marine player.

The work time on a new marine model and line, costs at best the same if we want to weight it in favour of xeno model lines, and the cost to make them is the same as for primaris marines. But unlike with primaris GW can't be sure, and I would even risk that they can estimate the size, of other model lines sells. There for making big lines of models for xeno factions gives GW no extra money, can lose them money if they don't sell, while same time spend on primaris does not bring any such risk. Why would they ever want to risk acting in anyway different? It is like trying out a new kid in front of ministry inspectors, risking the whole school budget on this new kid , maybe, doing okey. You wouldn't do that, you would show off the school stars, the event winners, those that can go professional and who bring in sponsors etc.

They don't have all the data they need, considering they were surprised at the demand for an SoB model line. Corporations make mistakes all the time. The only way your statement makes sense is if you assume that GW is all-knowing; they're not.

Table wrote:


I have never said the non marines get no support. So I am not sure how proceed on with this. You have already butchered my post's points and questions. I am trying to type this in as non-verbally salty way possible by the way. I am neither angered by your post or wish you any ill will.

You can say that its a new line stretched over three years. And that may be so. But look at HOW MUCH has been introduced in those three years. It is on the amount of two to three other factions combined. There is a problem. Most people see it. I do as well.

Yup, ccs seems to not understand that the amount of product space that Primaris has taken up has been unprecedented.

They don't have all the data they need, considering they were surprised at the demand for an SoB model line. Corporations make mistakes all the time. The only way your statement makes sense is if you assume that GW is all-knowing; they're not.

But they weren't suprised by anything. They had a full metal SoB line, that went full finecast, cost a lot and was not selling well. They made research and found out that people want plastic SoB, so they made them. And they sold well.

If instead of SoB, in the polls the same number of people was asking for Eldar models, then GW would have made eldar.

Or, they'll move on to other minis games or leave the hobby.

I don't think GW cares much about what happens to people after they buy an army and books from them. I mean besides the fact that, if GW could achive it somehow, they would want their models to bio degrade after 4-5 year, so that no secondary market exists.

Karol wrote:

They don't have all the data they need, considering they were surprised at the demand for an SoB model line. Corporations make mistakes all the time. The only way your statement makes sense is if you assume that GW is all-knowing; they're not.

But they weren't suprised by anything. They had a full metal SoB line, that went full finecast, cost a lot and was not selling well. They made research and found out that people want plastic SoB, so they made them. And they sold well.

If instead of SoB, in the polls the same number of people was asking for Eldar models, then GW would have made eldar.

Or, they'll move on to other minis games or leave the hobby.

I don't think GW cares much about what happens to people after they buy an army and books from them. I mean besides the fact that, if GW could achive it somehow, they would want their models to bio degrade after 4-5 year, so that no secondary market exists.

They definitely underproduced the SoB set, and took their sweet time making it to the point that 3rd party sellers had their own knockoff lines. GW left a lot of money on the table there. Do you understand that?

Your comment about GW not caring also shows how GW isn't making optimal moves, if true, because they are losing at customer retention. So I think you could screw your head on a bit straighter.

Saturmorn, don't get me wrong. I am pretty chill about GW these days. If you had come to me before the end of 4e, I was incredibly pissed at how GW had been handling releases, constantly expanding the number of Imperial factions while my Orks languished with ancient models and a codex from the start of the previous edition.

I've kinda calmed down about all of that now. The models are there, take them or leave them. GW support doesn't matter unless you are part of the "ecosystem", and I haven't been since 2010 or so at this point.

It is much nicer to just think "what would I like to have in my collection?" and not be limited by any of that stuff. If GW don't release new stuff I am interested in, that is absolutely fine by me. And if they do release stuff I am interested in, hey cool maybe I will pick it up.

But I get the frustration of people who are still part of the ecosystem. I don't blame them for being frustrated, it is frustrating because they are mis sold essentially. They are sold the idea that all factions are supported, but quickly find out if they picked Xenos that they are 4th tier at best and get disillusioned. It is a misalignment of expectations - they expect some sort of fair treatment with Space Marines, but they will never, ever get it.

My answer to that was to move to other systems using the same models and make sure I don't have to care what GW are doing too much. But not everyone wants to do that or has the abiltity to do it.

Or be me, play Cities of Sigmar and expect nothing and get nothing if not less than nothing.