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BaconCatBug wrote: Until the CSM codex gets replaced, VOTLW is still a valid stratagem to use on DG units if you have a CSM detachment.
Skitarii Vanguards don't have a 9" bubble on it though, do they?
If it is a Superdoctrine though, that means VotLW is off the table, but it's still, on it's own, free VotLW on all bolter weapons.
deathguard don't have the "heretic astartes" keyword anymore, so no, VotLW cant target them.
Skitarii can get a 3" aura of -1S and -1T (starting on turn 1 with more mobility options).
Deathguard only get better from turn 3+, when theyre already going to be within 3" anyway.
The outlier is the forward deployment terrain, which depending on its pts cost, could be one of the only fortification that is worth taking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 15:04:58
Not Online!!! wrote: I miss old fnp4+ a secondary armour roll that could be bypassed by Double s correlating to t value.
It was fast protected against small and in PM case medium weaponry and not slowing down since it was all or nothing.
Yeah but it eventually became you ignore Lascannons 33% of the time, which I hope you agree is slightly absurd.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
In a new preview of Codex: Craftworlds, Alatioc have a new ability. All enemy units who are more than 12" away from any Alatioc unit have their BS reduced by 1!
This, of course, isn't an Aura, nor is it a modifier, so it works on Hemlocks just fine!
BCB, -1 to toughness is something completely different from +1 to wound. Stop trolling.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: BCB, -1 to toughness is something completely different from +1 to wound. Stop trolling.
-1 to toughness, for S4 against T3, 4 and 5 results in a similar effect, hence my reference to Bolters.
Bolters vs Guardsmen: Go from 3+ to 2+ (S4 vs T2) Bolters vs Marines: Go from 4+ to 3+ (S4 vs T3) Bolters vs Custodes/Terminators: Go from 5+ to 4+ (S4 vs T4)
Heck, it even does the same for Plasma Guns vs Marines/Custodes. You're now wounding Marines on a 2+ with Standard Plasma and Custodes on a 2+ with Supercharged Plasma.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/12/11 15:42:52
Jidmah wrote: BCB, -1 to toughness is something completely different from +1 to wound. Stop trolling.
-1 to toughness, for S4 against T3, 4 and 5 results in a similar effect, hence my reference to Bolters.
Bolters vs Guardsmen: Go from 3+ to 2+ (S4 vs T2)
Bolters vs Marines: Go from 4+ to 3+ (S4 vs T3)
Bolters vs Custodes/Terminators: Go from 5+ to 4+ (S4 vs T4)
Heck, it even does the same for Plasma Guns vs Marines/Custodes. You're now wounding Marines on a 2+ with Standard Plasma and Custodes on a 2+ with Supercharged Plasma.
Right and those plasma guns from that unit need to be w/i 1/3/6/9" of the enemy to gain that effect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 15:48:58
Jidmah wrote: BCB, -1 to toughness is something completely different from +1 to wound. Stop trolling.
-1 to toughness, for S4 against T3, 4 and 5 results in a similar effect, hence my reference to Bolters.
Bolters vs Guardsmen: Go from 3+ to 2+ (S4 vs T2)
Bolters vs Marines: Go from 4+ to 3+ (S4 vs T3)
Bolters vs Custodes/Terminators: Go from 5+ to 4+ (S4 vs T4)
Heck, it even does the same for Plasma Guns vs Marines/Custodes. You're now wounding Marines on a 2+ with Standard Plasma and Custodes on a 2+ with Supercharged Plasma.
"They are the saaaaame!" *goes to put in very specific restrictions to describe the very specific situation when they are the same and ignores all the times when they are not*.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 20:42:03
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Mortarian has the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword on his previewed datasheet. Just sayin.
huh, i hadnt spotted that, i just assumed the "bubonic" would replace the "heretic" but it seems like its in addition. Makes me wonder if thats intentional or a mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArcaneHorror wrote: Until the 9th edition CSM codex is dropped, non-Death Guard Plague Marines are arguably now tougher than the DG ones.
lol, no. We did the math and DG plague marines are tougher against D1 and D2, they only lose durability against D3+ but they to from something like 1% chance of survival to a flat 0%. Theyre effectively tougher against the weapons that matter for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 18:07:55
Contagions has no effect if you army contains any non-DG units.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
VladimirHerzog wrote: lol, no. We did the math and DG plague marines are tougher against D1 and D2, they only lose durability against D3+ but they to from something like 1% chance of survival to a flat 0%. Theyre effectively tougher against the weapons that matter for them.
VladimirHerzog wrote: lol, no. We did the math and DG plague marines are tougher against D1 and D2, they only lose durability against D3+ but they to from something like 1% chance of survival to a flat 0%. Theyre effectively tougher against the weapons that matter for them.
Ok, I didn't know that.
Question of curiosity, why did you think the old 1 wound version would be tougher?
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mortarian has the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword on his previewed datasheet. Just sayin.
huh, i hadnt spotted that, i just assumed the "bubonic" would replace the "heretic" but it seems like its in addition. Makes me wonder if thats intentional or a mistake.
Yep. Stand by for the day 1 FAQ that reads "Remove "Heretic Astartes" from Mortarion's data sheet".
Will make a sig-bet with anyone that happens ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mortarian has the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword on his previewed datasheet. Just sayin.
huh, i hadnt spotted that, i just assumed the "bubonic" would replace the "heretic" but it seems like its in addition. Makes me wonder if thats intentional or a mistake.
Yep. Stand by for the day 1 FAQ that reads "Remove "Heretic Astartes" from Mortarion's data sheet".
Will make a sig-bet with anyone that happens ...
I am not saying it can't happen, weirder rules have in 40k, but removing the Heretic Astartes keyword seems like an odd thing to do as Plague Marines are not exclusive to Death Guard. They tend only to see play with Death Guard as they fulfill a much better role (along with Death Guard not having Chaos Space Marines anymore), but Plague Marines can be included in any Undivided and Nurgle aligned warband.
I don't see that changing in 9th. Especially if World Eaters and Emperor's Children don't also get separated out of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Even then, feels weird that Undivided (Black Legion in particular) legions wouldn't have access to them. Even if they are rarely taken.
Only thing worse than imperial snow flakes is choas snowflakes. Beyond bored at this point of difference chapters and legions of space marines.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Only thing worse than imperial snow flakes is choas snowflakes. Beyond bored at this point of difference chapters and legions of space marines.
Xenomancers wrote: Only thing worse than imperial snow flakes is choas snowflakes. Beyond bored at this point of difference chapters and legions of space marines.
You have a good weekend yourself, buddy.
I mean in a way he's not totally wrong. The absolute complaining about Daemon Engine hit rates, not having the super basic Drop Pod, etc. was a bit obnoxious. Loyalist/Renegade and Legions need to be really separated in playstyles instead of being just super similar.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
VladimirHerzog wrote: lol, no. We did the math and DG plague marines are tougher against D1 and D2, they only lose durability against D3+ but they to from something like 1% chance of survival to a flat 0%. Theyre effectively tougher against the weapons that matter for them.
Ok, I didn't know that.
Question of curiosity, why did you think the old 1 wound version would be tougher?
I wasn't referring to the wounds, but to the old DR rule with the FNP. Non-Death Guard Plague Marines still have it.
Do they? What makes you think GW won't follow the pattern of the Imperial weapon updates and issue a temporary updated datasheet for CSM Plague Marines?
alextroy wrote: Do they? What makes you think GW won't follow the pattern of the Imperial weapon updates and issue a temporary updated datasheet for CSM Plague Marines?
That's entirely possible. Doing so would in fact make Plague Marines stand-out units in CSM armies due to their two wounds.
alextroy wrote: Do they? What makes you think GW won't follow the pattern of the Imperial weapon updates and issue a temporary updated datasheet for CSM Plague Marines?
The have only updated weapon profiles so far though - they even said that they will update when they will get their codex in the unit preview.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mortarian has the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword on his previewed datasheet. Just sayin.
huh, i hadnt spotted that, i just assumed the "bubonic" would replace the "heretic" but it seems like its in addition. Makes me wonder if thats intentional or a mistake.
Yep. Stand by for the day 1 FAQ that reads "Remove "Heretic Astartes" from Mortarion's data sheet".
Will make a sig-bet with anyone that happens ...
Not saying you're wrong, but why? All of the snowflake marines share the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword, so why shouldn't Death Guard share the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword with the other Legions? Sure, it would open up some opportunities for cross Legion synergies, but at the cost of monofaction bonuses like Contagions and whatever the other Legions get and CP.. Death Guard are still a Legion, after all.
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mortarian has the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword on his previewed datasheet. Just sayin.
huh, i hadnt spotted that, i just assumed the "bubonic" would replace the "heretic" but it seems like its in addition. Makes me wonder if thats intentional or a mistake.
Yep. Stand by for the day 1 FAQ that reads "Remove "Heretic Astartes" from Mortarion's data sheet".
Will make a sig-bet with anyone that happens ...
I am not saying it can't happen, weirder rules have in 40k, but removing the Heretic Astartes keyword seems like an odd thing to do as Plague Marines are not exclusive to Death Guard. They tend only to see play with Death Guard as they fulfill a much better role (along with Death Guard not having Chaos Space Marines anymore), but Plague Marines can be included in any Undivided and Nurgle aligned warband.
I don't see that changing in 9th. Especially if World Eaters and Emperor's Children don't also get separated out of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Even then, feels weird that Undivided (Black Legion in particular) legions wouldn't have access to them. Even if they are rarely taken.
It wouldn't be weird at all. In 3.5 and Traitor Legions the Undivided Legions couldn't take God marked units, so no cult marines. Except for Black Legion, if course, but being able to take a little bit of everything was always their thing.
Klickor wrote: As a BA player this is really disturbing for me. Most of my damage comes from flat 2 damage weapons and at most 4 or 5 flat 3 damage.
In practice this means that except for the few str 4 d1 bolters, that are bad against t5+ 3+ multi wound, it will be like DG got an improvement to 4+++. Add extra wounds on top and it will be a real hassle to come out on top against Death Guard units.
To be fair as a Blood Angel player you'll be outmaneuvering Death Guard most of the time. Unless Death Guard is about to get some movement shenanigan or psychic powers they will still be affected by their slow movement.
welp, with the new contagion rules I'd say deathguard are gonna be a pretty hard counter to BA's
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Klickor wrote: As a BA player this is really disturbing for me. Most of my damage comes from flat 2 damage weapons and at most 4 or 5 flat 3 damage.
In practice this means that except for the few str 4 d1 bolters, that are bad against t5+ 3+ multi wound, it will be like DG got an improvement to 4+++. Add extra wounds on top and it will be a real hassle to come out on top against Death Guard units.
To be fair as a Blood Angel player you'll be outmaneuvering Death Guard most of the time. Unless Death Guard is about to get some movement shenanigan or psychic powers they will still be affected by their slow movement.
You know we're playing the "sit in the middle of the table" edition, right?
Not Online!!! wrote: I miss old fnp4+ a secondary armour roll that could be bypassed by Double s correlating to t value.
It was fast protected against small and in PM case medium weaponry and not slowing down since it was all or nothing.
Yeah but it eventually became you ignore Lascannons 33% of the time, which I hope you agree is slightly absurd.
Considering i am talking from the old ruleset where t5 was t4(5) aka only t5 up to s7 i'd say that that would be a no issue and a Way to still Block MW Spam.
After that we just would need an actually Working to Sound Table and we'd all be better off..
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
