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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?
Dakka Dakka has an OT politics ban. On-topic discussion isn’t banned, of course, including discussion of the political aspects/implications of miniatures gaming. It can be a fine line, and there is certainly some stuff a little over the line ITT, but all in all this is a topic squarely within on-topic discussion for this forum.

   
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your mind

 Polonius wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why does this thread exist when it's basically just the worst parts of Sigmarxism?

Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?


Uhhh, probably because it’s s productive and healthy discussion? I think we’re seeing a lot of perspectives that all seem to broadly agree with the OPs concern, but disagree with the suggestion that GW change it’s product.

Exalted. Bravo.

   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why does this thread exist when it's basically just the worst parts of Sigmarxism?

Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?


Uhhh, probably because it’s s productive and healthy discussion? I think we’re seeing a lot of perspectives that all seem to broadly agree with the OPs concern, but disagree with the suggestion that GW change it’s product.
"Rules for thee, and not for me", you mean.

"Politics Free Zones" have a habit of doing exactly that, by tacitly endorsing a particular political stance and discouraging dissent.
   
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Toledo, OH

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why does this thread exist when it's basically just the worst parts of Sigmarxism?

Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?


Uhhh, probably because it’s s productive and healthy discussion? I think we’re seeing a lot of perspectives that all seem to broadly agree with the OPs concern, but disagree with the suggestion that GW change it’s product.
"Rules for thee, and not for me", you mean.


Read the rules. No political discussions in OT. This is a discussion about the wargaming community, not a random political discussion.

The goal of the rule is to focus discussion on wargaming and related topics, and this is about wargaming.
   
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 Polonius wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why does this thread exist when it's basically just the worst parts of Sigmarxism?

Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?


Uhhh, probably because it’s s productive and healthy discussion? I think we’re seeing a lot of perspectives that all seem to broadly agree with the OPs concern, but disagree with the suggestion that GW change it’s product.


Yeah, but there has been a brewing argument between what should or shouldn't be censored, with one side supporting censorship of dangerous ideas and the other seeing that as a lead into further censorship.
   
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RVA

That’s been a major argument around gaming for a long time, whether it’s D&D, video games, or miniatures gaming.

   
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 Manchu wrote:
That’s been a major argument around gaming for a long time, whether it’s D&D, video games, or miniatures gaming.


It's been an argument in general for a long time. I've given my side and piece on it and what I've seen already.
   
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Toledo, OH

Arcanis161 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why does this thread exist when it's basically just the worst parts of Sigmarxism?

Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?


Uhhh, probably because it’s s productive and healthy discussion? I think we’re seeing a lot of perspectives that all seem to broadly agree with the OPs concern, but disagree with the suggestion that GW change it’s product.


Yeah, but there has been a brewing argument between what should or shouldn't be censored, with one side supporting censorship of dangerous ideas and the other seeing that as a lead into further censorship.


Which makes it a germane and relevant topic on a wargaming board. Dakka allows for fierce controversy, and it allows for off topic discussion. It just doesn’t want spend mod time on off topic brush fires. It’s their nickel, and I don’t disagree with the policy, even if I was a frequent poster in the politics threads.

   
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London, Ontario

Well, I’m late to the party and not going to pretend I read everything.

Some people can separate fiction from reality, and some can’t.

If a person believes that playing 40k somehow supports fascism, what do you say to that? I enjoy the Saw movies, but resist the urge to torture-porn people. I like the movie Fight Club, but don’t engage in domestic terrorism. I like Die Hard, and don’t go around quipping one-liners and shooting people.

For me, the satirical nature of the setting is enough for me to be able to wink and touch my nose when the “heroes” chant litanies of hate. It’s the nature of dystopian settings that make them interesting places to play in.

Imagine the video game DOOM set in a pleasant heavenscape where all the denizens try to give you cookies and ice cream. I mean, yeah, you could chainsaw the nice cherubs and see if they explode into ammo and health, but would that be fun? Do I encourage demonification of the universe by playing that? Do Satanists “win” by my enjoying “Hell”?

(No negatives meant to real world Satanists, you do you.)

So, while some real-world fascists might like 40k, they probably also like spending time with their families. Going out for a cup of coffee. Eating at non-ethnic restaurants. None of those are good reasons for me to stop enjoying time with my family, going out for coffee, or eating at whatever restaurant I want.

I can separate fascist activities from non-fascist activities that fascists might enjoy. All I can suggest is that if you can’t, you honestly should seek professional assistance in navigating what must be an absolutely terrifying existence.

Be well, don’t be afraid to seek help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/27 22:05:06


 
   
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This thread is now 6 pages long and there has been some genuine discussion without major name calling or the like. It might be off topic, but I think that's awesome and commendable.
   
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Manchu wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why are politics being allowed now? Why is a mod endorsing this?
Dakka Dakka has an OT politics ban. On-topic discussion isn’t banned, of course, including discussion of the political aspects/implications of miniatures gaming. It can be a fine line, and there is certainly some stuff a little over the line ITT, but all in all this is a topic squarely within on-topic discussion for this forum.
That feels like a distinction without a difference to allow general politics to be spoken of in a different measure so long as it's attached to a topic that matches it.

But I'll drop that argument since it's done. The community I'm personally within knows the distinction of 40k's satire and former things to be that of something of another universe.

Someone brought up the Evil Empire of Star Wars and the Republics and Rebellions.. But when you look at it within Star Wars it seems like the Republics have constantly failed, they constantly fall and easily become subverted at the first chance of someone villainous and seeking power. I do not believe that the intention of the lore creators was that Republics are genuinely terrible, end up corrupt, or otherwise... But that's how the lore has ended up. I don't believe it encourages the thought that we should be pushing for non-Republic sources of government as a stable method of governance.

The idea is that. The idea of fiction separation from belief in real life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/27 22:00:23


 
   
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 Netsurfer733 wrote:
Spoiler:
I want to be up front as to why I’m posting this: I cannot really play 40k right now because those I play with are having a crisis of 40k faith, and it has spread to me. So, I am posting this in order to help reason through said crisis so that we can all play again (and perhaps better contextualize why we are playing it). I want to do this through talking about these hang-ups of ours, which would be best dealt with talking through and exploring the topic with the community. I can use some help with that. In short, I am trying to bring my group back into 40k! So if you have some good points to poke holes in my thinking here, they are more than welcome.

Mostly, my issue right now is that the people I have always played 40k with are thinking of bowing out for good because of what their support of the franchise might mean.
And what I hate is that after thinking about it, I actually do get it.

As far as I can tell from my readings about 40k and fascists/the alt-right/etc. online (of which I have done a fair bit so far), people tend to really dismiss absolutely any validity that these people have for choosing to idolize 40k over other IP’s for all kinds of reasons, which I also totally get because I did for the longest time too, but I think they miss some key points. I think there’s more credit due to the idea that 40k is easily idolized by these forces of hatred than folks seem to give these people. The more I’ve thought about it, the more I fear that 40k might actually have an intrinsic problem that comes with the lore, as-consumed by today’s real-world population.

People say ‘lol 40k is a joke/satire/what have you’. “The Imperium is SO stupidly terrible, that no one should ever take it seriously.” “Obviously everything is horrible and there is nothing to admire here.” But as many will tell you, 40k is actually NOT presented as any sort of joke, not really. It’s ultra serious; rooted in parody perhaps, but is now largely not. The joke was basically that fascists and hatred is terrible, look at how ridiculous their world would be. And while I don’t think the change in tone to seriousness in 40k directly supports the idea that astartes/the Imperium/etc. are NOT terrible in any way, its still leaving things woefully unclear.

So 40k stopped being obviously satirical decades ago, and I personally have always taken the lore extremely seriously (having started during 3rd edition myself), in that, when you think about it, all that is required for it to be very realistic is the assumption that the warp exists. That’s in any case at least one way to look at it being a grounded, realistic sort of universe. There’s lots of other ways to draw very direct comparisons to 40k and the real world but I’d rather not go to off topic with that here. But regardless, I’ve actually always thought that the Imperium was a ‘beautiful creation’ – speaking purely in a narrative, engaging sense. Not that it would be a good place to live – obviously. The immersion of being a part of these terrible people partaking in this terrible universe has been appealing because of how new the problems are, and the sheer terror of what you face and then subsequently overcome together, while being a part of the mess of humanity. And that's fun and interesting as hell. I think all of this while, of course, being quite the opposite of these fascists/alt-right/people-spouting-hatred. In fact, I’ve always been proud of 40k as an IP because of the discussions I knew it could always bring about, partially in regards to humanity being at its worst, what they could accomplish in that state verses what they completely disallowed, just hypothetically. But I’ve also always believed that we cannot afford to leave any quarter for hatred to breed in. And if Warhammer 40k has only growing in that capacity…

I’ve read post after post after post about all of this, and I can’t help but think that most people are missing the mark. There is some reason, I think – blatant reason – why fascists would, and indeed perhaps almost should look to the Imperium as a model of pure strength. And if that’s what matters to them, that’s what matters to them (unfortunately). People are always saying that the Imperium is obviously the worst in every way – dancing around the actual reasons why these people look up to it. In a grimdark galaxy, it stands. It is resolute. Parts of it fall just as parts of it rise, but the Imperium does keep humanity alive. It is our deepest, darkest, worst impulses of governance and otherwise to the point where we’ve almost lost ourselves completely – and yet it works in this universe, and has endured for millennia. Even if you say that this is a story where humanity is overcoming not just the galaxy but also itself (a true and grimdark point to make), I would still give credit to the Imperium. The Imperium is a force to be reckoned with. One potentially sad point to real life fascists…maybe.

BUT (counter-point). The thing that people are trying to say but aren’t giving enough voice to is how there could be something BETTER. Instead of a fascist, dominating Imperium that allows for no voice within its throngs of underlings, there could be a government that works much more collectively, more democratically, or what have you – just like that one democratic hive on Necromunda, Gothrul's Needle (yes, democracy exists in 40k – even if it is still terrible in that hive). So there’s the thing – the Imperium is gloriously messed up but strong, yet if the government was replaced with something much more sensible, it would be so much better. Presumably. The problem is that sort of solution has barely even been vaguely, tertiarily SHOWN as even a possibility to sustain within the lore (for humanity). I get that is potentially a part of the grimdark theme – but there is so much room here for more clarity on the part of the narrative. And I suspect Gulliman’s work may show just how much better the Imperium COULD be. So there is certainly hope.

To clarify what I mean by that – better solutions to evil Empires is displayed better in, for example, Star Wars. In Star Wars, you have the ‘evil Empire’, and a rebellion, a republic, etc. You can see the alternative to the Empire very plainly. You can know the failings of these evil empires very easily, and see a better, more righteous alternative in which others get a say. You do not get that in Warhammer 40k. There is the Imperium. THE solution. Maybe there was some fancy idea of something way better in the Horus Heresy and that’s obviously a tragedy that given all their actions they still couldn’t sustain even a fraction of that vision, but there is some very real argument that because of the Horus Heresy’s failure, and any other government’s failure to have stopped the Imperium, that the message becomes “humanity is at its (at least martially) best when it’s at its worst”. Therein lies the danger, I suspect. That message. That subtext. I fear the Imperium does seem to support this theory, given the lack of any other evidence to the contrary, and the routine triumphs they make. These triumphs are supposedly in spite of the government etc. (given the ‘satire’ of the IP), but what actual proof of that is there? The Imperium is supposed to be ‘the most oppressive regime imaginable’, after all, sayeth the intro quote, so there should theoretically be a better one. Unless the Tau government is somehow supposed to be the example?

Some people might say it would be needless modernization of 40k lore to get Guilliman to really re-arrange things, or split the Imperium in two in some way. Letting the “SJW’s” have their way with things. I don’t care. I think this is necessary going forward, because when you are faced with it, really faced with the realization that supporting Warhammer 40k monetarily (by purchasing its products etc.) or otherwise – might grow a franchise that will only encourage more fascists more than most any other IP…is sort of a disgusting possibility. Again, please disprove me on any of this if you’re able; it’s why I’m here.

We want to deny that, thoroughly – but I fear it’s just the truth. That IS the fact of the matter, I fear, even if it is only to a small degree, which is unfortunately unlike any other IP I’m aware of. And boy is today not a great day and age to be encouraging hatred in.

In any case, this is the rut I currently find myself in, with my thinking. To me, Warhammer 40k has always been so much more than this. It’s glorious, fun, and yes - dark, sure…but only to the point where it enhances the fun. There’s no need to enjoy it at 1,100% sadistic levels like you can bring any franchise, just like you don’t have to enjoy it or see it in any way that encourages hate. It’s creative, it explores various aspects of humanity and in ways we never really see in popular fiction. But the option to see it in a way that encourages hatred is certainly there. I fear it is too easy to see.

So perhaps it’s not truly a question of whether or not Warhammer 40k should encourage these people (I think it shouldn’t for all kinds of reasons – namely that hatred is bad, duh), but the fact of the matter is that it does. And more so than virtually any other IP. Right? If anyone can dissuade me of this thinking or refute any of my specific points, for the love of the God-Emperor please do so, below. For sake of my hobby, and our hobby group.

As I alluded to before, I’ve read a number of articles, threads, etc. on this. This one, saying 40k is a lost cause, I think goes a step too far. 40k certainly isn’t a lost cause, which basically everyone in the comments seems to agree with: https://www.reddit.com/r/Sigmarxism/comments/i50ra7/unpopular_opinion_warhammer_40k_is_a_lost_cause/
There have also been threads about how 40k isn’t ready for the mainstream yet, and it can go a ways before getting there (I agree – i.e. Guilliman, etc.). That’s also echoed in another article where Leakycheese talks out against Arch and his legion (who is also quoted a bit too much in this article):https://www.vice.com/en/article/9358ke/the-warhammer-40k-community-is-trying-to-weed-out-its-far-right-faction" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.vice.com/en/article/9358ke/the-warhammer-40k-community-is-trying-to-weed-out-its-far-right-faction It’s articles like this that do give hope to the whole thing, at least.
Ultimately I think what I’m going to land on is what Leakycheese did, as said in that article:

“Leakycheese suggests that a positive step would be a sign posted in every Games Workshop franchise, making clear to all customers that prejudice has no place in the community. Some changes to the lore of 40k would not go amiss, either; there should be greater ethnic diversity in models, he says, and it should be abundantly clear that the Imperium of Man aren’t the “good guys”.
“They need to put the satire back into it,” he says. “The other thing they need to do is stop making Space Marines appear as heroes; people on the alt-right think they are superhuman Übermensch warriors – they [Games Workshop] do stuff around that; it just needs to be brought back to the fore.”

It really is just too dangerous to let the Space Marines, Imperium etc., be marketed as the good guys; no one should get the impression that virtually every marine is good. I’ve always believed that the best thing about 40k is how primarily smaller groups, maybe a planet here and there, a handful of astartes chapters, etc., continue to actually be noble and fight for humanity, in spite of everything. That includes, of course, doing so in spite of the Imperium’s terribleness. That sort of goodness shining through is the real story of 40k, imo. The biggest reason to stick around in and for 40k (not to mention the possibility that humanity just needs to hang on long enough for it to become a fully psychic race, in which everything potentially gets better. That is just brilliant, exciting stuff, courtesy of the Emperor). Conversely, the way people are too easily able to perceive the lore now is upside-down; that these individual good people aren’t the emphasis for marketing, but rather the Imperium and its horrific military presence. They're celebrated because they are powerful and able to overcome xenos etc., and for little other virtue. And that emphasis needs to change, just like Leakycheese said – there needs to be a clearer emphasis on doing what is right in the face of what is wrong.

BUT, I do not want to wait to enjoy 40k until these things happen. I want to be able to more than justify to myself and my friends that there is absolutely no problem with playing, supporting, and buying 40k stuff right now. And to be honest, I’d rather not be doing so purely based on a pure hope that things will improve.

[Spoiler] And there are signs of it. I just recently caught wind of how in one of the latest novels, “Watchers of the Throne: The Regent's Shadow" by Chris Wraight, shows how the High Lords of terra already began a civil war of sorts against Guilliman, before being completely annihilated by Guilliman’s machinations, on account of his understanding of how corrupt and terrible the high lords were. The civil war has already come to 40k…and I for one could not be more relieved. This is the conflict that needs to happen. [/endSpoiler]

So, there are a few questions to think about here, ultimately.


TLDR:
To start with, can you say that 40k lore/the Imperium should not encourage fascists and alt-righters despite how the Imperium’s accomplishments are actually incredibly, and incalculably vast?
If you can’t say 40k shouldn’t encourage fascists and alt-righters, then is it *wrong* to pump money and time into a franchise that still exists in this state?
Finally, if you think it is not wrong to pump money and time into the franchise given this, then is that primarily because of hope for a coming change in the Warhammer lore itself through Guilliman and the IP’s presentation by Games Workshop to change marketing and perception with a better emphasis?


After reading this I think I should send you a bill for an hourly rate....

Me? I "pump money & time" into this franchise because GW makes models I like, and I & my circle enjoy playing the game (and other GW games). It has nothing at all to do with the lore & evolving story your fretting about.
I will stop giving GW $ when they stop making great models & producing fun (enough) games.

Beyond my not playing with them, I don't give a sht wether or not the lore appeals to the fascists, racists, & other human trash amongst us.
   
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That’s quite a good example, actually. I think you’d really have to bend over backwards to say that SW is anti-democracy. I don’t think SW has any significant political insights, whatsoever. But if there were (or are) some niche of SW fans that interpreted the whole thing to be an argument for IRL authoritarianism, would you really feel the need to stop liking SW?

   
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 Manchu wrote:
That’s quite a good example, actually. I think you’d really have to bend over backwards to say that SW is anti-democracy. I don’t think SW has any significant political insights, whatsoever. But if there were (or are) some niche of SW fans that interpreted the whole thing to be an argument for IRL authoritarianism, would you really feel the need to stop liking SW?


The nature of any form of heroic story telling paints government as at best, ineffective, or at worst, malicious. If the old republic had sniffed out palpatine early on, that’s a boring story. Ditto the aurors handling Voldemort’s return. Even Star Trek regularly casts the federation as bureaucrats getting in the way of real men doing the real work.
   
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Nuremberg

BaconCatBug, you seem to have misunderstood what I said. I never said Warhammer was bad. I really like warhammer!

I did say it appeals to fascists though. And it seems to be a common misunderstanding with people who are uncomfortable with this discussion - saying Warhammer appeals to fascists is not me saying "people who like warhamer are fascists!". I like warhammer. I am not a fascist. But it is interesting to look at why it might appeal to them, and it shouldn't make any of us uncomfortable to examine that in my opinion.

Voss, I take your point. I would kick anyone with fascist views out of a club or group I was running, or leave a group if it had a lot of people like that and they were tolerated. And by fascist views, no, I do not mean anyone with right wing views. I'm not a child. I work with someone who grew up under soviet communism who has to me quite right wing views and I think he is a great person and I really admire him. We often debate politics in work and both get a lot out of it.

Fascist views are something different, and I mean that when I say it.

   
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 Bosskelot wrote:


What's also interesting is that in my anecdotal experience, I've seen more women, people of colour and openly LGBT people engaged with Sigmar and other tabletop games than I have 40k, despite 40k being the biggest of them all. And I live in a very diverse and accepting area where the 40k community is incredibly open-minded and incredibly anti-fash. But the community is only one aspect of it, when the game and setting itself revolves around so much psuedo-Fascist ultra-Toxic Masculine power fantasies that are ABSOLUTELY NOT presented as ironic jokes or critiques anymore it tends to make a lot of people highly uncomfortable.


Can attest to this. The Age of Sigmar line tends to attract a much more diverse group of people and has been outselling 40k a bit recently. No 40k games which reduces sales, but the AoS models are selling more due to interest from people who like to collect and paint stuff. Someone who has no idea of what 40k is is probably more likely to be interested in AoS due to its more optimistic setting compared to the ultra-dour 40k setting.

I would love to see some sales numbers on Soulbound and Wrath and Glory to see which one people are gravitating towards.

   
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Nuremberg

That is an interesting point and matches my experience of the demographics of Warhammer Fantasy tournaments vs. 40K tournaments.

   
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Leicester, UK

Rihgu wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
In 40k's defence, saying 'It's just a game' is valid, because as big as it is, that's all it is.


It's also a community, or a collection of communities, and that's the more relevant part.


Fair enough. The analogy I would draw in that case is with football. Football is a game, and a community, and also a collection of communities. It's international, like 40k, and it's got some pretty dark real life stories to tell about corruption, hooliganism and abuse - but that doesn't stop it being just a game; we don't blame FIFA for the bad stuff and we don't stop or kids playing it.

My painting and modeling blog:
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This article proves why sitting inside all day makes you go insane...
   
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 Eldarsif wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:


What's also interesting is that in my anecdotal experience, I've seen more women, people of colour and openly LGBT people engaged with Sigmar and other tabletop games than I have 40k, despite 40k being the biggest of them all. And I live in a very diverse and accepting area where the 40k community is incredibly open-minded and incredibly anti-fash. But the community is only one aspect of it, when the game and setting itself revolves around so much psuedo-Fascist ultra-Toxic Masculine power fantasies that are ABSOLUTELY NOT presented as ironic jokes or critiques anymore it tends to make a lot of people highly uncomfortable.


Can attest to this. The Age of Sigmar line tends to attract a much more diverse group of people and has been outselling 40k a bit recently. No 40k games which reduces sales, but the AoS models are selling more due to interest from people who like to collect and paint stuff. Someone who has no idea of what 40k is is probably more likely to be interested in AoS due to its more optimistic setting compared to the ultra-dour 40k setting.

I would love to see some sales numbers on Soulbound and Wrath and Glory to see which one people are gravitating towards.



Outselling where though? I doubt it's a universal thing. The battleboxes for 40k were all sold out in various places before the AOS ones were.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
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nvm

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/27 22:36:12


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Just FYI I will be deleting posts that keep going down this line of debating whether Nazism or Communism is worse, which is not on topic for this thread or Dakka Dakka generally. Thanks!

   
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 Da Boss wrote:
And by fascist views, no, I do not mean anyone with right wing views. I'm not a child. I work with someone who grew up under soviet communism who has to me quite right wing views and I think he is a great person and I really admire him. We often debate politics in work and both get a lot out of it.

Fascist views are something different, and I mean that when I say it.


Exalted. You have a lot you can teach to us here in the states, where I'm seeing the most division.
   
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BaconCatBug wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I think if we accept that fascists like 40K a lot (and those who haven't encountered it, it does exist) then we can examine why that is. And yeah, we can do something about it.
Fascists also drink water. And Hitler was a vegetarian.

"Fascists like X, therefore X is bad" is the most basic example of a logical fallacy you can commit.
Did you miss the part where Da Boss said "examine why that is"?

What seemed pretty clear to me was an insight like "there's a correlation between 40k and a disproportionately large amount of fascist fans. Why is that?", which would then prompt some kind of examination into if that's something inherent about 40k, or just a coincidence.

Instead, you deliberately dumbed their insight down to claim a "logical fallacy".
Yes, Hitler was a vegetarian. I don't object to an examination to see if vegetarianism leads to fascism, but I don't think it would go far, as I'm sure you know.

Wolfblade wrote:After reading some of this thread it amazes me that people forget scumbags like arch (formerly arch warhammer) and his sizable following exist.

You know, the guy who was against GW's statement in which they say their setting is not what they want the real world to be and all forms of bigotry are bad.
Yeah, how quickly some folks seem to forget that. Like, outright racial slurs on his channel, and some VERY suspect comments on his discord with some very racist overtones.

Da Boss wrote:I did say it appeals to fascists though. And it seems to be a common misunderstanding with people who are uncomfortable with this discussion - saying Warhammer appeals to fascists is not me saying "people who like warhamer are fascists!". I like warhammer. I am not a fascist. But it is interesting to look at why it might appeal to them, and it shouldn't make any of us uncomfortable to examine that in my opinion.

Voss, I take your point. I would kick anyone with fascist views out of a club or group I was running, or leave a group if it had a lot of people like that and they were tolerated. And by fascist views, no, I do not mean anyone with right wing views. I'm not a child. I work with someone who grew up under soviet communism who has to me quite right wing views and I think he is a great person and I really admire him. We often debate politics in work and both get a lot out of it.

Fascist views are something different, and I mean that when I say it.
100%.
When many of us are talking about fascism, we mean fascism. When we mean Nazis, we mean Nazis. Not just right of centre.


They/them

 
   
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personally, 40k started out as obvious satire.

40k got corporatised.

40k therefore changed release and story focus, imperium went from unnecessarily cruel and self undermining to heroic, especially in regards to marines.

40k got taken by GW itself to be ernest in conjunction of above.

40k IoM now appeals to ANY totalitarian.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/27 22:58:53


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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 Bosskelot wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:


What's also interesting is that in my anecdotal experience, I've seen more women, people of colour and openly LGBT people engaged with Sigmar and other tabletop games than I have 40k, despite 40k being the biggest of them all. And I live in a very diverse and accepting area where the 40k community is incredibly open-minded and incredibly anti-fash. But the community is only one aspect of it, when the game and setting itself revolves around so much psuedo-Fascist ultra-Toxic Masculine power fantasies that are ABSOLUTELY NOT presented as ironic jokes or critiques anymore it tends to make a lot of people highly uncomfortable.


Can attest to this. The Age of Sigmar line tends to attract a much more diverse group of people and has been outselling 40k a bit recently. No 40k games which reduces sales, but the AoS models are selling more due to interest from people who like to collect and paint stuff. Someone who has no idea of what 40k is is probably more likely to be interested in AoS due to its more optimistic setting compared to the ultra-dour 40k setting.

I would love to see some sales numbers on Soulbound and Wrath and Glory to see which one people are gravitating towards.



Outselling where though? I doubt it's a universal thing. The battleboxes for 40k were all sold out in various places before the AOS ones were.


Just speaking locally.

Again, mostly because there has been no FLGS tourney or game scene which the 40k scene thrives on here. We had 2-3 tournaments for all of 2020 and that usually just results in people not wanting to expand their armies in regards to the game itself as they have yet to test their newest builds. Age of Sigmar seems to suffer less from this locally as a lot of people are just buying them to paint and collect. I imagine it is also easier to sell AoS to parents as AoS has a bit more obvious good vs evil compared to 40k. Does also help that the "marines" of AoS is a bit more gender equal as of late which probably has an appeal to a wider potential audience.
   
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I honestly think what we're talking about from the Arch contingent and similar is more racism than pro-fascism. It's just that it looks like pro-fascism because a lot of them interpret the Imperium as a white society/institution; remember the kerfluffle over the black Ultramarine?

In the Infinity community, the same kind of people who unironically think the Imperium is laudable tend to gravitate towards PanOceania (and, to a certain extent, Ariadna), with its space Catholicism and knights, "Deus Vult" and all that. Nevermind the fact that they're explicitly corporatist, pro-freedom of speech, etc, they're coded as primarily white and Christian. Of course, it's been noted that right wing people tend to support capitalism as long as they see it maintaining the proper social hierarchy - this progression from monarchism has been chronicled in worrying detail. The authoritarian, dystopian faction in Infinity (at least the most overtly) is Yu Jing, but that doesn't receive the support of those types because it's culturally Chinese. It also explains a lot of the antipathy towards the Tau from a lot of the Warhammer community, since they've been coded as Asian/nonwhite, and not as morally deplorable as the Imperium.

Fundamentally this is a bit of a problem of GW's own making, since they've steered hard into a heroic Imperium for a long time now. So it's not that the racists are seeing something that isn't there - there's notes they're picking up on. But it's not turning anyone racist (or fascist), those tendencies are already there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/27 22:59:05


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Hecaton wrote:
I honestly think what we're talking about from the Arch contingent and similar is more racism than pro-fascism. It's just that it looks like pro-fascism because a lot of them interpret the Imperium as a white society/institution; remember the kerfluffle over the black Ultramarine?

In the Infinity community, the same kind of people who unironically think the Imperium is laudable tend to gravitate towards PanOceania (and, to a certain extent, Ariadna), with its space Catholicism and knights, "Deus Vult" and all that. Nevermind the fact that they're explicitly corporatist, pro-freedom of speech, etc, they're coded as primarily white and Christian. The authoritarian, dystopian faction (at least the most overtly) is Yu Jing, but that doesn't receive the support of those types because it's culturally Chinese. It also explains a lot of the antipathy towards the Tau from a lot of the community, since they've been coded as Asian/nonwhite, and not as morally deplorable as the Imperium.

Fundamentally this is a bit of a problem of GW's own making, since they've steered hard into a heroic Imperium for a long time now. So it's not that the racists are seeing something that isn't there - there's notes they're picking up on. But it's not turning anyone racist (or fascist), those tendencies are already there.


gotta sell those primaris somehow...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Does it encourage hate? No, it's a fictional setting. Do some 'fascists' like it? Maybe, but the question you then ask is: so what if they do? Honestly, Hitler and Stalin could both rise from the grave tomorrow, walk into a gee dubs and start playing Warhammer, and it still wouldn't stop me doing it...

This odd sort of reverse guilt by association is a very strange logic and I really don't know why people even entertain it. Furthermore it seems to have been seized on or even potentially propagated by certain elements of the fanbase as a way to attack people they don't like, a fairly loud example of this happening earlier this year.

As to the OP, I would suggest telling your friends to develop thicker skins and re-evaluate their reasoning.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/27 23:20:46


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Mexico

 BertBert wrote:


Because we don't need anyone to spell it out - it's obvious.


It is unexplored, you don't leave the obvious unexplored.



So it's about personal preference then? I'm not super invested into Space Marines or Guard for that matter (I play neither), but their stories are easily the most interesting for me, because humans will always be more relatable to me than aliens.

In part yes, but 40k being too human eccentric is a well know issue. There is a reason why we always complain about Space Marines getting another model release while some Xeno factions are still mostly metal.


I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with both of those statements. You have to attribute a certain amount of maturity and competence to people, because if you don't, that will prompt certain kinds of people to try and assume control over their lives and decisions. It's also most definitely not standard practice to deliver overt moralistic preaching in anything that isn't made for children. Narrative handholding makes sense as far as the plot goes, but not the underlying implications.


SW has it, ST has it, LotR has it. The trick is delivering without making it feel like preaching, but people are moral creatures, we cannot separate morality from storytelling, because the moment we start empathizing with characters, we start empathizing with their morality. In fact I would say "moraless" storytelling is extremely rare, as even 40k books have some degree of it as we are supposed to empathize with the characters of each book.

Also, Warhammer has a children audience, kids play the tabletop, read the books and there is even a comic line specifically meant to introduce children to the setting. When an IP gets large enough, you have to assume children will consume it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/27 23:06:41


 
   
 
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