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Da Boss wrote: Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.
And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.
So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models?
One of the first lessons you learn if you have to manage an in-person group is that the worst ~3% of players will drive off 3x-4x their number of decent personable humans if you don't just kick them out.
And in the worst case, they'll get your group ejected from the store you probably use to host your games by doing the same thing they do with good players with paying customers.
Having a standard of behavioral decency is necessary for any group that wants to last.
Absolutely, and if people cause trouble in a store, then they should be kicked out. But it's nothing to do with their beliefs, and everything to do with behaviour. This is that popular fallacy that people who call themselves 'antifascist' must somehow be moral paragons simply because they assert themselves as so.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
You're a smart kid, I am sure you can google the significance.
I just tried that and failed to get any helpful results, to be honest. Not saying you're incorrect, it's just that all I can find is about diamonds or about a british colony?
hotsauceman1 wrote: No.
It's like the people who think Tyler Durden was a role model or that ceasers legion was a good choice for the mojave.
They missed the point, it's not the source materials fault they are stupid.
I dunno, it definitely does seem like there's a pattern of "the way something looks on the surface is all that matters to anyone" that shines through in all of these writings. You're not going to look at the cover of the 8th edition rulebook, point to the dude posed like God in the roof of the sistine chapel, surrounded by white light and go "ah yes, the bad guy."
It does seem like any time a villainous character is allowed to look cool and seem "savvy" or "smart" in a piece of media, there's a whole legion of idiots who will idolize them in a way they don't tend to idolize, say, Sauron from LOTR. They always seem to follow a similar pattern, too: Tyler Durden, Heath Ledger Joker, Hans Landa, The Punisher - them being Cool and Badass is the text, them being wrong is the subtext.
I also think it's pretty telling how many people will complain any time a character like that is portrayed like they reasonably would be - the reaction to Anakin Skywalker being portrayed as a whiny, bitchy manchild whose greatest victories in the films all involved murdering helpless, basically unarmed people was pretty negative because people just want Darth Vader to be a Cool Badass.
People often like anti heroes or villains as much as heroes. It doesn't mean anything.
I mean, there does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between people I meet who don't pay their child support, constantly tell stories about how they're the victim and everybody else is the bad guy, and can't handle any challenge to their ego and punisher skull and heath ledger joker car window stickers.
I'm in favor of the trend of purposefully trying to craft media that denies people like that villains to idolized.
A strong correlation of a limited subset?
A niche media with a niche fanbase with a niche forum in a niche sub forum?
No, mostly where I work, which is in a pretty large industrial park. So a lot of the folks I interact with on a daily basis are welders, truckers, delivery guys, polishers, etc. If I do end up starting to have to interact with someone who's just the worst kind of human scum, I can do a magic trick where I can tell you exactly what kind of car they drive and what kind of stickers are on the back with approximately a 75-85% accuracy rate.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
You're a smart kid, I am sure you can google the significance.
I just tried that and failed to get any helpful results, to be honest. Not saying you're incorrect, it's just that all I can find is about diamonds or about a british colony?
But again, what's your point? These people like those characters so we shouldn't make those characters, and that will stop people being 'scum'? Or these characters made those people scum therefore we should stop making those characters? Because neither one sounds good to me as someone who values freedom of expression for people to create whatever characters and stories they wish.
Da Boss wrote: Nobody is talking about banning anything?
Wasn't there like a call for ban of models with fur on them a few years ago?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
I don't think I ever saw people play a "nazi" army outside of historicals, and non of the people that played those armies or ally armies like hungarians or italians had political views aligned with the german reich. In fact considering history it is really hard to be pro nazi or pro communist around here. Specialy the nazi thing.
It's really surprised me when I've found Russians who are both pro-communism and also pro-Stalin, to the point where I wondered if they're actually being serious.
Having Polish friends and having spent some time in Poland (great country, loved my time there) the folk I've come across, especially the older generation who grew up under communism, have a pretty different perspective. Speaking as a foreigner, it was almost like an internal cultural divide between the younger folk who have grown up in a more western society to the older folk who grew up under communism, it's not a divide I noticed in other countries I've been to.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
You're a smart kid, I am sure you can google the significance.
I am not smart, but we do learn about Rhodesia at school. And it was a country defended by a lot of polish war heroes from WWII that fought for its independance from communists till the very end. Some were burried on The Polish War Hero memorial after communism fell in 1989. So I am not really getting the bad part, how patriotic people defending their own country and their marks are suppose to be bad.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Da Boss wrote: Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.
And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.
So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models?
One of the first lessons you learn if you have to manage an in-person group is that the worst ~3% of players will drive off 3x-4x their number of decent personable humans if you don't just kick them out.
And in the worst case, they'll get your group ejected from the store you probably use to host your games by doing the same thing they do with good players with paying customers.
Having a standard of behavioral decency is necessary for any group that wants to last.
Absolutely, and if people cause trouble in a store, then they should be kicked out. But it's nothing to do with their beliefs, and everything to do with behaviour. This is that popular fallacy that people who call themselves 'antifascist' must somehow be moral paragons simply because they assert themselves as so.
I will 100% grant that anyone who is such a cunning and skillful secret wacko that they carefully conceal their ideology and never take any action based upon it until the day they die is fine in my book.
Speech and painting your models is a behavior, however, and just because I might enforce restrictions on certain types of speech/clothing/paint schemes to help maintain a Family Store policy doesn't mean I have to be in favor of some across the board enforcement.
At the end of the day the reason we're able to come in to someone's private business and play a game for free and store many of the accessories for that game in that private business is because we bring in business rather than drive it away.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Well if those people attempt to start up the fourth Reich in a games workshop I would support the manager kicking them out.
Facetiousness aside, yeah, if you put swastikas on the models or something then yeah, again that's something the manager of the establishment could forbid, and would be sensible to do so.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: But again, what's your point? These people like those characters so we shouldn't make those characters, and that will stop people being 'scum'? Or these characters made those people scum therefore we should stop making those characters? Because neither one sounds good to me as someone who values freedom of expression for people to create whatever characters and stories they wish.
You're ascribing a lot of...I don't know, purpose to my opinion here? I just love seeing people like that get mad because some character they like gets 'ruined' or some new character comes out that makes them angry, because in my opinion they're the funniest people to see get red in the face about it.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
Queen Anne’s revenge: Then people need to remember it’s a fantasy setting and keep a divide between that and reality.
Not everything has an ulterior motive or hidden agenda, sometimes a game is just a game.
Sadly people can’t always do this though and try to find hidden meanings, no matter how much twisting it requires.
Also, reading into something does not inherently mean you agree or disagree with it.
I have read a lot of religious text simply because I find it interesting how different cultures perceive things through religion.
I myself though am not even slightly religious.
I simply believe in letting people believe in whatever they want.
They only time I will ever have an issue with it is if it has a negative impact on others around them or causes harm to others.
People can be civilised.
bullyboy wrote: This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
I think there is a difference between either though. See if you pick lets say a hungarian or Italian or even a waffen SS force to play with you are just making a table top choice, and they look historical the way they look. Now there are people here who think that communists and nazis should be erased from the common consciousness, but I don't think that would be right.
But when you take a space marine army, and make it to look like a Vlasovs Waffen SS brigade, then this is an outside of w40k choice. Now I understand that maybe this could be done for shock value. But at best I find it distasteful, same way as lets say artists claiming they do art by descareting religious objects of any religion. And in rare cases this maybe does mean that someone thinks that german nationalism is the way to go, but I really don't think that stance is a popular one.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Well Karol, that is certainly one reading of the history of Rhodesia, I will give you that.
To discuss this further would be OT so I will leave it there.
bullyboy wrote: This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
boy, it sure is funny though just how much louder and more numerous the complaints about these kinds of things seem to be than the things themselves.
"oh god, we found what looks like a troll meme subreddit 1% of the size of the two main warhammer subreddits where people make shitposts about how 40k is fascist! We have to destroy the....modern liberal extreme push in education?"
it's weird, I have never had to tell any bat-wielding antifa supersoldiers to feth off from my 40k gaming group over the years, and I live in one of the most RaDiCaLlY aNaRcHoBiDeNiSt parts of the united states.
bullyboy wrote: This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
I think there is a difference between either though. See if you pick lets say a hungarian or Italian or even a waffen SS force to play with you are just making a table top choice, and they look historical the way they look. Now there are people here who think that communists and nazis should be erased from the common consciousness, but I don't think that would be right.
But when you take a space marine army, and make it to look like a Vlasovs Waffen SS brigade, then this is an outside of w40k choice. Now I understand that maybe this could be done for shock value. But at best I find it distasteful, same way as lets say artists claiming they do art by descareting religious objects of any religion. And in rare cases this maybe does mean that someone thinks that german nationalism is the way to go, but I really don't think that stance is a popular one.
^this right here. "shock value" is definitely the intended goal as far as I can tell 99% of the time, and I don't care if it's an "Anatomically Specific" slaanesh army or minis modeled and painted to look like weird historical figures, if you're coming into a private business and trying to offend people and drive them off with your painting, you're going to get rightfully kicked out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 13:34:12
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
bullyboy wrote: This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
I think there is a difference between either though. See if you pick lets say a hungarian or Italian or even a waffen SS force to play with you are just making a table top choice, and they look historical the way they look. Now there are people here who think that communists and nazis should be erased from the common consciousness, but I don't think that would be right.
But when you take a space marine army, and make it to look like a Vlasovs Waffen SS brigade, then this is an outside of w40k choice. Now I understand that maybe this could be done for shock value. But at best I find it distasteful, same way as lets say artists claiming they do art by descareting religious objects of any religion. And in rare cases this maybe does mean that someone thinks that german nationalism is the way to go, but I really don't think that stance is a popular one.
I think in the historical context it does a disservice to forget the nazi party behind the soldiers. I occasionally build WW2 aircraft models, and I generally put swastikas on the tails of my German aircraft because it's historically accurate, even though the kit sometimes don't come with them.
In the "art" sense, using nazi iconography outside of the historical context, I think it's hard to decide where to draw the line. Is it okay in comical parody? Whilst I think painting 40k models with nazi icons would be taking it too far for me personally, I also try not to be judgemental of a person until I know them better than how they chose to paint their army.
Well it is all fine and dandy till that under 1% of people causes your whole country to be labeled as nazis around the world, block EU money, force you to change laws illegaly to your country laws, mess up traded deals with China "because it is immoral" etc.
Worse thing is those people work for companies that are western anyway, most of them can leave the country if they only want to, but will leave everyone else with the problems here.
1% is not equal to all other 1%. Sometimes the 1% is more important then 50%.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Edit: Ach, I better behave myself, I like this thread.
I would find a warhammer army painted with Swastikas and so on really distasteful and I would judge someone who had done that to their minis, for sure. At the very least for having poor taste and being lacking in common sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 13:38:52
40k in and of itself does not encourage hatred/fascism, but the Imperium of Man is a bit of fascist's wet dream at its surface level. Yes it is a failing state that has survived for as long as it did solely on momentum and just being huge, but looking at several of its key aspects: racial purity, big strongman figure of the Emperor, heavily militaristic, downright brutal to anyone who speaks against it, and so on. All points of interest to someone with a fascist streak to them.
Of course, looking PAST the surface level you can see obvious points to go against this, but some people just like the surface level, and don't think deep enough to notice that Margaret Thatcher is trying damned hard to destroy some of the industrial heartlands of the Imperium and other things like that.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Da Boss wrote: Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.
And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.
So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models? Because I would suggest that aswell as being impossible and unnecessary, it's also very illiberal and leaning towards that authoritarianism that I would assume you are very much against to attempt that. Why are people bothered about what other people believe? As long as it isn't affecting you directly, who cares? Trying to get them booted out of the hobby isn't going to change their opinions, so I assume it's just a matter of ideologically purifying your hobby space. The problem then arises, more often than not, that this devolves into a purity spiral with the window for what is acceptable getting smaller and smaller. (There is a very interesting BBC radio 4 podcast about this very thing happening to online knitting communities.) Just leave them be, if you don't like their ideas, don't associate.
This is the main problem I had with the statement in June. Those folks I deem to be ideological troublemakers took it as carte blanche to start attacking people on twitter, almost immediately.
The problem with what you are saying is that you are skirting into the Paradox of Tolerance. If one doesn't work to cast away intolerance, it can fester and grow, leading to Othering of groups and peoples. Its all cute and fun to say "oh you are being intolerant" to a literal fascist, but remember, fascists, neo nazis, racial purists, and their ilk actively believe SOME PEOPLE SHOULD NOT EXIST, and should be killed, enslaved, and dehumanized.
There is a very big difference between telling someone who espouses those views to please leave and not be welcome, when compared to what their end goal is. One is creating a safe space where people can enjoy themselves without fear or harassment. The other stance is literally "these [insert group/religion/culture/etc] should not exist, and are worth less than me and my [group/religion/culture/etc]."
And as you say, it would be impossible to just kick them out of the hobby - but stores and gaming groups can say "hey, you are a fascist / racist and we don't really feel like associating with you. Please leave."
And note, I am talking solely about actual fascists, neo nazis and racists, not people who happen to have different political views from me.
The IoM aren't the "good guys" unless you are just being anthropocentric, which ironically would be actual racism. Every faction in 40k universe are shades of grey, or rather grimdark, the IoM included. A lot of what makes them grimdark / dystopian was plagiarised from the history of communism actually. Eg: commissars, purges.
Wait so you want to tell me that the right stance to have, as I assume racism is the wrong stance, that being team human in w40k and real life is somehow the wrong stance to hold? w40k players should be pro eldar and orks?
Probably acknowledging that 40k is a fictional setting, and none of the factions are good guys.
Karol wrote:There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
Rhodesia was a state built around white supremacy and apartheid. Its much like someone waving a Confederate flag - maaaaybe the person doesn't realize the subtext of the image, but more likely, they are just smugly showing how supportive they are of an intolerant society.
Jackal90 wrote: Queen Anne’s revenge: Then people need to remember it’s a fantasy setting and keep a divide between that and reality.
Not everything has an ulterior motive or hidden agenda, sometimes a game is just a game.
Sadly people can’t always do this though and try to find hidden meanings, no matter how much twisting it requires.
Also, reading into something does not inherently mean you agree or disagree with it.
I have read a lot of religious text simply because I find it interesting how different cultures perceive things through religion.
I myself though am not even slightly religious.
I simply believe in letting people believe in whatever they want.
They only time I will ever have an issue with it is if it has a negative impact on others around them or causes harm to others.
People can be civilised.
I'm unsure as to what you're disagreeing with me on here. We seem to be on the same page.
Jackal90 wrote: Queen Anne’s revenge: Then people need to remember it’s a fantasy setting and keep a divide between that and reality.
Not everything has an ulterior motive or hidden agenda, sometimes a game is just a game.
Sadly people can’t always do this though and try to find hidden meanings, no matter how much twisting it requires.
Also, reading into something does not inherently mean you agree or disagree with it.
I have read a lot of religious text simply because I find it interesting how different cultures perceive things through religion.
I myself though am not even slightly religious.
I simply believe in letting people believe in whatever they want.
They only time I will ever have an issue with it is if it has a negative impact on others around them or causes harm to others.
People can be civilised.
I'm unsure as to what you're disagreeing with me on here. We seem to be on the same page.
We are I believe.
I was just adding more to my original post.
Hoping that people will "get the joke" is not a guaranteed thing, as I said in my post back on page 5-6 using 4chan and incels as an example. This doesn't mean 40k will turn people into fascists*, but it will certainly appeal to them unless GW and the Community makes it clearer that the IoM is not a thing to emulate or admire. And the issue there is that GW themselves are basically doing nothing to address that whatsoever.
People earlier in this thread talk about how "obvious" it is that the Imperium is terrible and the bad guy, but I will bet good money you're all making these assumptions based on lore and background you read 20+ years ago. Try opening up and reading the 9th Edition Rulebook sometime and having a read of the lore. Sure, you can say it's written from an Imperial perspective, but there is no hint of irony or critique in it what presents, there are no smoking guns of "everything you just read is a load of bs". It is all presented as immutable and objective fact. The Imperium is justified in everything it does because of Apocalyptic Race War, Xenos are all to be exterminated and never to be trusted because of ancestral misdeeds and their inferiority to the superior Human form, the only way to avoid eternal damnation is to submit to worship of the Emperor completely and utterly and ask no questions. Nowhere is this more apparent in the lore for Marines, in both rulebook and Codex, where the negative aspects of them are completely downplayed and the usages of words like "Hero" and "Heroics" and "Defenders of Humanity" have increased tenfold. And this isn't even getting into the meta discussion surrounding Marines, where marketing on streams and Warcom will absolutely not address their problematic elements whatsoever. And of course it won't, because it's marketing, but it's basically the first thing people see and what they remember most. Hell, just look at how they market anything else; they're not afraid to address the scary or evil aspects of those things. Necrons are rightly treated as being evil and scary and that's a big selling point!
This thread is actually a perfect example of some not getting the joke or irony and the bringing up of Guilliman earlier encapsulates it perfectly. I won't repeat what others said about Guilliman's return and his portrayal being the most obvious example of turning the IoM into the good guys and how problematic that is, but in this very thread we've had people claiming that the tragedy of 40kIoM is how it fell from the lofty idealistic heights of the 30k Imperium. If you honestly believe that then congratulations you didn't "get the joke" and you didn't pick up on the "obvious" message. The Imperium of 10,000 years ago is just as vile and monstrous with the only differences being a slightly more efficient bureaucracy for 30k and the religious ideals of 40k being worn openly, rather than hidden behind some flimsy bs about the Imperial Truth (which in its entire structure is intensely religious and apes religious iconography and methods constantly anyway). If your skin didn't fething crawl in Horus Rising when Sindermann is giving a religious sermon that basically consists of saying "we're right because we're right and that means we are justified in anything we do" then yeah, I dunno. Or how about later in those early books with the Interex and how they live peacefully and in harmony with Aliens and how all of our PoV characters are disgusted and repulsed by it.
*Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.
Absolutely agreed.
It doesn't matter if we know that 40k's "a joke" and if you don't get it, you're dumb - what matters is that there are people who don't see it as a joke, and do buy into the myth of the Imperium being good. And y'all can sit around on your hands and say "well, they're just stupid" or "I'm not going to impose on their freedoms", but that's all well and good when you're not the ones they're making racist comments about, is it?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models? Because I would suggest that aswell as being impossible and unnecessary, it's also very illiberal and leaning towards that authoritarianism that I would assume you are very much against to attempt that.
You know what's also pretty illiberal? Bigotry and ethnocentricism.
If someone's belief is centred around the idea that their race is superior, that's not a belief that deserves any right to be defended.
Why are people bothered about what other people believe?
Uh, gee, I dunno, maybe when those beliefs are "you're subhuman scum because of how you look/love/live/where you come from", people might just have a reason to be bothered by them?
When someone genuinely believes that your life is inferior, and that's a core tenet of their beliefs, you're damn right I'm bothered by that.
As long as it isn't affecting you directly, who cares?
"Well, Aaron thinks that all *insert race here* should die. Buuuut I'm not part of that race, so who cares, amirite gamers?"
Trying to get them booted out of the hobby isn't going to change their opinions, so I assume it's just a matter of ideologically purifying your hobby space. The problem then arises, more often than not, that this devolves into a purity spiral with the window for what is acceptable getting smaller and smaller. (There is a very interesting BBC radio 4 podcast about this very thing happening to online knitting communities.) Just leave them be, if you don't like their ideas, don't associate.
Yeah, I don't associate by making sure they're not in my spaces.
You're damn right I'll purify my hobby space, because fascists don't belong in it, in society, in anything. (And when I say fascist, I mean fascist.)
queen_annes_revenge wrote:I'm sure lots of them like beer too, so, shall we ban them from buying beer?
If someone's belief is that it's okay to prejudice based on race, why should someone serve them?
Seriously, this is the kind of "sweeping under the rug" some of us are talking about - why on earth do y'all tolerate actual honest to god racists?
the_scotsman wrote:
bullyboy wrote: This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
boy, it sure is funny though just how much louder and more numerous the complaints about these kinds of things seem to be than the things themselves.
"oh god, we found what looks like a troll meme subreddit 1% of the size of the two main warhammer subreddits where people make shitposts about how 40k is fascist! We have to destroy the....modern liberal extreme push in education?"
it's weird, I have never had to tell any bat-wielding antifa supersoldiers to feth off from my 40k gaming group over the years, and I live in one of the most RaDiCaLlY aNaRcHoBiDeNiSt parts of the united states.
Yeah, it is strange that there seems to be more backlash towards people who want to get rid of fascists than there is towards the actual fascists.
Like, imagine outright saying "I oppose people who oppose fascists".
What I find more interesting is just to discuss why Warhammer is attractive to fascists and hear what others have to say.
I think it's fairly simple to answer that question.
Fascists believe in a strong military led government. Thus, they're pro-military and likely to be attracted to military simulations. So Warhammer is likely to have a higher proportion of fascists than, say, a knitting circle. I'd expect to find more fascists playing airsoft/paintball for the exact same reasons.
Now, does Warhammer (40k in particular) attract MORE fascists than other table top miniature wargames? Hard to say, but GW is the dominant game so that's where you're going to see the most of any kind of person and therefore it's easier to find a community of like minded people among the larger community of wargamers. If you're pro-fascist, you're more likely to find another pro-fascist among Warhammer gamers than the much smaller (and frankly older) FOW community.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models? Because I would suggest that aswell as being impossible and unnecessary, it's also very illiberal and leaning towards that authoritarianism that I would assume you are very much against to attempt that. Why are people bothered about what other people believe? As long as it isn't affecting you directly, who cares? Trying to get them booted out of the hobby isn't going to change their opinions, so I assume it's just a matter of ideologically purifying your hobby space. The problem then arises, more often than not, that this devolves into a purity spiral with the window for what is acceptable getting smaller and smaller. (There is a very interesting BBC radio 4 podcast about this very thing happening to online knitting communities.) Just leave them be, if you don't like their ideas, don't associate.
This is the main problem I had with the statement in June. Those folks I deem to be ideological troublemakers took it as carte blanche to start attacking people on twitter, almost immediately.
The problem with what you are saying is that you are skirting into the Paradox of Tolerance. If one doesn't work to cast away intolerance, it can fester and grow, leading to Othering of groups and peoples. Its all cute and fun to say "oh you are being intolerant" to a literal fascist, but remember, fascists, neo nazis, racial purists, and their ilk actively believe SOME PEOPLE SHOULD NOT EXIST, and should be killed, enslaved, and dehumanized.
There is a very big difference between telling someone who espouses those views to please leave and not be welcome, when compared to what their end goal is. One is creating a safe space where people can enjoy themselves without fear or harassment. The other stance is literally "these [insert group/religion/culture/etc] should not exist, and are worth less than me and my [group/religion/culture/etc]."
And as you say, it would be impossible to just kick them out of the hobby - but stores and gaming groups can say "hey, you are a fascist / racist and we don't really feel like associating with you. Please leave."
And note, I am talking solely about actual fascists, neo nazis and racists, not people who happen to have different political views from me.
Exactly. It's all well and good to say "well, I don't want to impose on their right to speak, I can't be intolerant of them!", but when what they're speaking is that some people should not exist because of their race, sexuality, gender, religion, country of origin, etc, they're the ones being intolerant first!
If y'all care so much about "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness", perhaps try telling fascists that, because they're the ones threatening it for others.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 13:59:04
Da Boss wrote: Edit: Ach, I better behave myself, I like this thread.
I would find a warhammer army painted with Swastikas and so on really distasteful and I would judge someone who had done that to their minis, for sure. At the very least for having poor taste and being lacking in common sense.
i am sure a lot of asians that could read this will perfectly find your statement to be in poor taste aswell.
Meanwhile host the japanese flag in south east asia and you get a similar reaction.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
I just love seeing people like that get mad because some character they like gets 'ruined' or some new character comes out that makes them angry, because in my opinion they're the funniest people to see get red in the face about it.
