Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
You're a smart kid, I am sure you can google the significance.
I am not smart, but we do learn about Rhodesia at school. And it was a country defended by a lot of polish war heroes from WWII that fought for its independance from communists till the very end. Some were burried on The Polish War Hero memorial after communism fell in 1989. So I am not really getting the bad part, how patriotic people defending their own country and their marks are suppose to be bad.
Of all the ridiculous bullgak in this thread, this is the one post that cannot be allowed to stand unopposed.
The white nationalist government of Rhodesia unilaterally declared independence from the United Kingdom in 1965 to avoid Rhodesia being reorganised by the UK into a Republic where black people were allowed to vote. The entire reason that Zimbabwe is such a mess today is because the civil war started because a bunch of racists in Rhodesia thought a multi-decade civil war was preferable to letting black people vote, the same way the American Civil War was unambiguously about slavery.
If you don't like being called a defender of fascists* or the far right, stop defending them. It's really that simple. Trying to reframe the Rhodesia civil war as being about brave patriots that tried to defend their country against communism is either monumental ignorance or outright malicious. The bad part isn't being a patriot (although Oscar Wilde's remark that "patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" seems rather apt here), it's being so racist that you'd (generic you) rather start a 15-year civil war than let black people vote. Maybe don't spread far-right talking points in a thread about the problem of people spreading far-right talking points?
*And before the pearl clutching begins, Portuguese dictator Salazar backed then-PM of Rhodesia Ian Smith against the UK, and if the argument that the Estado Novo of Salazar wasn't fascist is the hill you want to die on then be my guest.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
I don't think I ever saw people play a "nazi" army outside of historicals, and non of the people that played those armies or ally armies like hungarians or italians had political views aligned with the german reich. In fact considering history it is really hard to be pro nazi or pro communist around here. Specialy the nazi thing.
What I find more interesting is just to discuss why Warhammer is attractive to fascists and hear what others have to say.
I don't think it is more attractive, then anything else that people can do. There are probably more what ever counts as a fascist in MMA clubs and hooligan gym clubs, then in w40k. I still have no idea how w40k could appeal to someone who is a fasist or national socialist, as there is no such system in the lore. There is no communism or any form of democracy either. well maybe eldar are kind of a like the US pre civil war, but this is still a big kind of a and a maybe.
There is a theocracy and oligarchy in it. But I don't see many people who like those system play w40k, or it being popular in places where they are base of sociaty.
Sometimes I think that -isms are just buzz words nowadays, and that they don't really mean the definition of the word, but are just a nice replacement for a bannable insult to someone or something one doesn't like. And if it was true, depending on the viewer, anything in any facet of live is majority an -ism of some sort, which isn't very useful to go on with life, but a good thing to write about. As we are proving it now.
Can't tell if you are joking, but identifying with a badge of rhodesia pretty much says you support separation of races, and a return to segregation. They were a small unrecognized South African county that actively participated in attempting to prevent black africans from integrating in south africa. They had a military unit that went around and "enforced their intent" called the Selous Scouts. Their iconography is synonymous with the struggle for white power and white supremacy. Dylan Roof was a big supporter in his manifesto before the church shooting that made him infamous.
Hoping that people will "get the joke" is not a guaranteed thing, as I said in my post back on page 5-6 using 4chan and incels as an example. This doesn't mean 40k will turn people into fascists*, but it will certainly appeal to them unless GW and the Community makes it clearer that the IoM is not a thing to emulate or admire. And the issue there is that GW themselves are basically doing nothing to address that whatsoever.
People earlier in this thread talk about how "obvious" it is that the Imperium is terrible and the bad guy, but I will bet good money you're all making these assumptions based on lore and background you read 20+ years ago. Try opening up and reading the 9th Edition Rulebook sometime and having a read of the lore. Sure, you can say it's written from an Imperial perspective, but there is no hint of irony or critique in it what presents, there are no smoking guns of "everything you just read is a load of bs". It is all presented as immutable and objective fact. The Imperium is justified in everything it does because of Apocalyptic Race War, Xenos are all to be exterminated and never to be trusted because of ancestral misdeeds and their inferiority to the superior Human form, the only way to avoid eternal damnation is to submit to worship of the Emperor completely and utterly and ask no questions. Nowhere is this more apparent in the lore for Marines, in both rulebook and Codex, where the negative aspects of them are completely downplayed and the usages of words like "Hero" and "Heroics" and "Defenders of Humanity" have increased tenfold. And this isn't even getting into the meta discussion surrounding Marines, where marketing on streams and Warcom will absolutely not address their problematic elements whatsoever. And of course it won't, because it's marketing, but it's basically the first thing people see and what they remember most. Hell, just look at how they market anything else; they're not afraid to address the scary or evil aspects of those things. Necrons are rightly treated as being evil and scary and that's a big selling point!
This thread is actually a perfect example of some not getting the joke or irony and the bringing up of Guilliman earlier encapsulates it perfectly. I won't repeat what others said about Guilliman's return and his portrayal being the most obvious example of turning the IoM into the good guys and how problematic that is, but in this very thread we've had people claiming that the tragedy of 40kIoM is how it fell from the lofty idealistic heights of the 30k Imperium. If you honestly believe that then congratulations you didn't "get the joke" and you didn't pick up on the "obvious" message. The Imperium of 10,000 years ago is just as vile and monstrous with the only differences being a slightly more efficient bureaucracy for 30k and the religious ideals of 40k being worn openly, rather than hidden behind some flimsy bs about the Imperial Truth (which in its entire structure is intensely religious and apes religious iconography and methods constantly anyway). If your skin didn't fething crawl in Horus Rising when Sindermann is giving a religious sermon that basically consists of saying "we're right because we're right and that means we are justified in anything we do" then yeah, I dunno. Or how about later in those early books with the Interex and how they live peacefully and in harmony with Aliens and how all of our PoV characters are disgusted and repulsed by it.
*Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.
Absolutely agreed.
It doesn't matter if we know that 40k's "a joke" and if you don't get it, you're dumb - what matters is that there are people who don't see it as a joke, and do buy into the myth of the Imperium being good. And y'all can sit around on your hands and say "well, they're just stupid" or "I'm not going to impose on their freedoms", but that's all well and good when you're not the ones they're making racist comments about, is it?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models? Because I would suggest that aswell as being impossible and unnecessary, it's also very illiberal and leaning towards that authoritarianism that I would assume you are very much against to attempt that.
You know what's also pretty illiberal? Bigotry and ethnocentricism.
If someone's belief is centred around the idea that their race is superior, that's not a belief that deserves any right to be defended.
Why are people bothered about what other people believe?
Uh, gee, I dunno, maybe when those beliefs are "you're subhuman scum because of how you look/love/live/where you come from", people might just have a reason to be bothered by them?
When someone genuinely believes that your life is inferior, and that's a core tenet of their beliefs, you're damn right I'm bothered by that.
As long as it isn't affecting you directly, who cares?
"Well, Aaron thinks that all *insert race here* should die. Buuuut I'm not part of that race, so who cares, amirite gamers?"
Trying to get them booted out of the hobby isn't going to change their opinions, so I assume it's just a matter of ideologically purifying your hobby space. The problem then arises, more often than not, that this devolves into a purity spiral with the window for what is acceptable getting smaller and smaller. (There is a very interesting BBC radio 4 podcast about this very thing happening to online knitting communities.) Just leave them be, if you don't like their ideas, don't associate.
Yeah, I don't associate by making sure they're not in my spaces.
You're damn right I'll purify my hobby space, because fascists don't belong in it, in society, in anything. (And when I say fascist, I mean fascist.)
queen_annes_revenge wrote:I'm sure lots of them like beer too, so, shall we ban them from buying beer?
If someone's belief is that it's okay to prejudice based on race, why should someone serve them?
Seriously, this is the kind of "sweeping under the rug" some of us are talking about - why on earth do y'all tolerate actual honest to god racists?
the_scotsman wrote:
bullyboy wrote: This whole anti-fascist crowd/uprising is such a plague in the community. As an adult I can play a game and realize that the characters and lore have zero influence on who I am as a person. I can play 12th SS in FOW as much a I play US paras, Brit commandos etc, and realize that these little tiny soldiers that I roll dice for have zero effect on what I do/think in the real world.
It certainly seems that the current liberal extreme push in modern education has given these people a hammer and all they can see are nails. Glad none of them are part of my gaming group.
boy, it sure is funny though just how much louder and more numerous the complaints about these kinds of things seem to be than the things themselves.
"oh god, we found what looks like a troll meme subreddit 1% of the size of the two main warhammer subreddits where people make shitposts about how 40k is fascist! We have to destroy the....modern liberal extreme push in education?"
it's weird, I have never had to tell any bat-wielding antifa supersoldiers to feth off from my 40k gaming group over the years, and I live in one of the most RaDiCaLlY aNaRcHoBiDeNiSt parts of the united states.
Yeah, it is strange that there seems to be more backlash towards people who want to get rid of fascists than there is towards the actual fascists.
Like, imagine outright saying "I oppose people who oppose fascists".
100% agreed with what you say here, and far more eloquently spoken than I could do.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
You're a smart kid, I am sure you can google the significance.
I am not smart, but we do learn about Rhodesia at school. And it was a country defended by a lot of polish war heroes from WWII that fought for its independance from communists till the very end. Some were burried on The Polish War Hero memorial after communism fell in 1989. So I am not really getting the bad part, how patriotic people defending their own country and their marks are suppose to be bad.
And that is how 'antifa' make clever use of the equivocation fallacy.
Come on, what's wrong with it then?
You clearly have opinions on that matter, I'd be interested to see your breakdown on why simply opposing actual honest-to-god fascists is a problem for you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 14:04:22
I'd like to answer this question from a slightly different perspective, if I may - even if fascists like 40k, why does it matter?
Seriously, why does it matter if fascists enjoy 40k and idolise the Imperium of Man? Unless someone here has statistics that prove otherwise, fascists certainly don't seem to make up a large percentage of 40k players. Nor does 40k seem to be much of a recruitment tool even among wargamers, let alone for the general public. Seriously, can you imagine explaining the Imperium of Man to someone and trying to tell them - with a straight face - that it's something humanity should actually aim for?
I say this because I think people frequently lose sight of perspective and forget that a handful of fascist wargamers does not a serious political movement make. Indeed, I would argue that the current fear of fascism boarders on outright paranoia. Especially when the definition of fascist these days seems to boil down to "anyone who disagrees with my extremely left-wing views".
This might come as a shock to many, but 40k memes like the aforementioned 'God-Emperor Trump' are not shared exclusively by fascists. Indeed, I've seen them shared and enjoyed not only by non-fascist right-wingers but also by a great many centrists and left-leaning individuals. Hell, I'm not even sure that meme was inspired by the actual 40k lore, but rather by the title and the general aesthetic
It's a similar case with regard to many of the 'Heresy!' SM memes. Space Marines are quite recognisable, and many of their short, punchy phrases are almost tailor-made for memes. I don't believe the vast majority of people who post such memes have any serious interest in actually ushering in the Imperium of Man.
I say this not as any sort of defence of fascists/fascism, but rather because I believe that it's important to keep scale and perspective in mind when discussing this sort of thing. Not least because I think the means by which people would stop this tiny minority of fascists would in fact bring us far closer to an authoritarian, thought-policing government than anything the actual fascists could hope to achieve on their own. I also strongly suspect that far more innocents would end up suffering under such regimes, compared to actual fascists.
Hell, if anything I would have thought it would be preferable that fascists play 40k. That way, they can while away their time playing out their strange fantasies with miniatures on a board, rather than trying to bring them about in real life.
Bosskelot wrote: *Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.
You say that now, but you might think differently when the Tyranids invade!
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Exactly. It's all well and good to say "well, I don't want to impose on their right to speak, I can't be intolerant of them!", but when what they're speaking is that some people should not exist because of their race, sexuality, gender, religion, country of origin, etc, they're the ones being intolerant first!
If y'all care so much about "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness", perhaps try telling fascists that, because they're the ones threatening it for others.
TBF, let them speak, by all means, considering the underlined part is allways the correct and meassured response in such a case and the most common by far so be it.
Freedom of speech works both ways. Maintaining it is one of the best tools to impede them.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Karol wrote: There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?
You're a smart kid, I am sure you can google the significance.
I am not smart, but we do learn about Rhodesia at school. And it was a country defended by a lot of polish war heroes from WWII that fought for its independance from communists till the very end. Some were burried on The Polish War Hero memorial after communism fell in 1989. So I am not really getting the bad part, how patriotic people defending their own country and their marks are suppose to be bad.
And that is how 'antifa' make clever use of the equivocation fallacy.
Come on, what's wrong with it then?
You clearly have opinions on that matter, I'd be interested to see your breakdown on why simply opposing actual honest-to-god fascists is a problem for you.
Because Antifa, atleast the local branch over here:
Does not care if they oppose real fascists-
Employs the same baseline concept and tactics like their supposed opponents did in the past.
Attack governmental institutions
Attack everyone THEY deem to be a fascisct simply because they can under the guise of doing good.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
NO coming in with straight truth bombs followed by a follow up attack of common sense. I don't really have anything else to add except to re iterate my point about purity spirals from before, and when you consider that antifa are already coming from a pretty extreme position to start with, it's going to spiral fast
vipoid wrote: I'd like to answer this question from a slightly different perspective, if I may - even if fascists like 40k, why does it matter?
Seriously, why does it matter if fascists enjoy 40k and idolise the Imperium of Man? Unless someone here has statistics that prove otherwise, fascists certainly don't seem to make up a large percentage of 40k players. Nor does 40k seem to be much of a recruitment tool even among wargamers, let alone for the general public. Seriously, can you imagine explaining the Imperium of Man to someone and trying to tell them - with a straight face - that it's something humanity should actually aim for?
I say this because I think people frequently lose sight of perspective and forget that a handful of fascist wargamers does not a serious political movement make. Indeed, I would argue that the current fear of fascism boarders on outright paranoia. Especially when the definition of fascist these days seems to boil down to "anyone who disagrees with my extremely left-wing views".
This might come as a shock to many, but 40k memes like the aforementioned 'God-Emperor Trump' are not shared exclusively by fascists. Indeed, I've seen them shared and enjoyed not only by non-fascist right-wingers but also by a great many centrists and left-leaning individuals. Hell, I'm not even sure that meme was inspired by the actual 40k lore, but rather by the title and the general aesthetic
It's a similar case with regard to many of the 'Heresy!' SM memes. Space Marines are quite recognisable, and many of their short, punchy phrases are almost tailor-made for memes. I don't believe the vast majority of people who post such memes have any serious interest in actually ushering in the Imperium of Man.
I say this not as any sort of defence of fascists/fascism, but rather because I believe that it's important to keep scale and perspective in mind when discussing this sort of thing. Not least because I think the means by which people would stop this tiny minority of fascists would in fact bring us far closer to an authoritarian, thought-policing government than anything the actual fascists could hope to achieve on their own. I also strongly suspect that far more innocents would end up suffering under such regimes, compared to actual fascists.
Hell, if anything I would have thought it would be preferable that fascists play 40k. That way, they can while away their time playing out their strange fantasies with miniatures on a board, rather than trying to bring them about in real life.
Bosskelot wrote: *Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.
You say that now, but you might think differently when the Tyranids invade!
I agree with you that not all memes = fascism, and that the Warhammer community as a whole has few of their ilk. However, if they are given a safe space to grow and thrive, you will see more fascists and racists feel welcome in the hobby space, to the detriment of all others. Once again, when your stance is "group X Y and Z are lesser than me and should not exist," even if the problem is tiny right now, you want to take some basic measures at least to make sure it doesn't become a full blown issue. When all it takes is saying "please don't espouse toxic rhetoric here," or "you are being toxic and telling someone they do not deserve to exist, please leave" to keep things safe and friendly, vigilance will pay off.
vipoid wrote:I'd like to answer this question from a slightly different perspective, if I may - even if fascists like 40k, why does it matter?
Seriously, why does it matter if fascists enjoy 40k and idolise the Imperium of Man?
In the same way it matters if fascists like anything.
Again, don't take this to mean "cancel everything because of the fascists!!", that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "if you don't tell fascists to feth off the moment you encounter them, you're doing it wrong".
40k is a collection of smaller communities, yes. There isn't one single Warhammer Community worldwide, short of consuming GW products. But at the very least, can we all not agree that fascists do not belong in anyone's gaming tables, because, yanno, they're fascists?
I say this not as any sort of defence of fascists/fascism, but rather because I believe that it's important to keep scale and perspective in mind when discussing this sort of thing.
I'm well aware of the scale. Fascists make up a small minority of 40k players. Is it larger than some other fandoms comparatively? Almost certainly, no doubts, but yes, it's still small.
Guess what? It doesn't matter, as far as I'm concerned. If there was 1 or 1000 fascists, they're still fascists, and none of them should be tolerated.
That's literally all we're saying here - that fascist is not to be tolerated. Can we agree on that single thing?
I suppose the final solution to the problem of hypothetical fascists liking the same thing as apparent communists would be for Disney to buy GW. That cured Star Wars of fascism didn't it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 14:15:21
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, it is strange that there seems to be more backlash towards people who want to get rid of fascists than there is towards the actual fascists.
Like, imagine outright saying "I oppose people who oppose fascists".
Communists oppose fascists. Am I allowed to oppose Communists? You bet I am. And do. Heck, I oppose both of them. They can both get bent.
The important question is "Are those people opposing fascism actually just communists?"
Not Online!!! wrote:Because Antifa, atleast the local branch over here:
Does not care if they oppose real fascists-
Employs the same baseline concept and tactics like their supposed opponents did in the past.
Attack governmental institutions
Attack everyone THEY deem to be a fascisct simply because they can under the guise of doing good.
I'm not talking about Antifa (capital A), or groups that call people they don't like fascists to gain power.
When I talk about antifa (lower case a), I'm talking the simple concept of opposing fascists. Literally, just that single factor.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:NO coming in with straight truth bombs followed by a follow up attack of common sense. I don't really have anything else to add except to re iterate my point about purity spirals from before, and when you consider that antifa are already coming from a pretty extreme position to start with, it's going to spiral fast
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If you don't like being called a defender of fascists* or the far right, stop defending them. It's really that simple.
Absolutely.
It's more than a little telling when some folks put more effort into defending fascists than defending the people fascists are gunning for.
Aside from blocking, exactly how do we purge "toxic" members or members that outright support the "Bad side". Being general here on purpose. But honestly asking, what is the best policy for self-enforcement of the community?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, it is strange that there seems to be more backlash towards people who want to get rid of fascists than there is towards the actual fascists.
Like, imagine outright saying "I oppose people who oppose fascists".
Communists oppose fascists. Am I allowed to oppose Communists? You bet I am. And do. Heck, I oppose both of them. They can both get bent.
The important question is "Are those people opposing fascism actually just communists?"
What's to stop you opposing both without siding with either one?
Who cares if the communists are also opposing fascists? No-one's telling you to be a communist.
Equivocation fallacy.. you're assuming the premise that antifa only 'oppose fascism' (despite that having its own problems with subjectivity) but this is incorrect as NO outlined above.
Not Online!!! wrote:Because Antifa, atleast the local branch over here:
Does not care if they oppose real fascists-
Employs the same baseline concept and tactics like their supposed opponents did in the past.
Attack governmental institutions
Attack everyone THEY deem to be a fascisct simply because they can under the guise of doing good.
I'm not talking about Antifa (capital A), or groups that call people they don't like fascists to gain power.
When I talk about antifa (lower case a), I'm talking the simple concept of opposing fascists. Literally, just that single factor.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:NO coming in with straight truth bombs followed by a follow up attack of common sense. I don't really have anything else to add except to re iterate my point about purity spirals from before, and when you consider that antifa are already coming from a pretty extreme position to start with, it's going to spiral fast
What's extreme about opposing fascism, sorry?
Because the Group with capital A doesn't get a bad rep for reasons for many people that use lowercase a.
It's a bit like corbyn got away with really "nice" views in regards to jewish people until very recently.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If you don't like being called a defender of fascists* or the far right, stop defending them. It's really that simple.
Absolutely.
It's more than a little telling when some folks put more effort into defending fascists than defending the people fascists are gunning for.
Aside from blocking, exactly how do we purge "toxic" members or members that outright support the "Bad side". Being general here on purpose. But honestly asking, what is the best policy for self-enforcement of the community?
I would say exposure, spreading word and awareness about their actions, and then, as a collective, working to dispel their misconceptions, attempt to educate them and re-integrate them into a less bigoted society.
But first, yes, it is important to make the community aware of their toxicity, and to unilaterally stand in opposition to it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, it is strange that there seems to be more backlash towards people who want to get rid of fascists than there is towards the actual fascists.
Like, imagine outright saying "I oppose people who oppose fascists".
That's the thing, if only a lot of these people were actually fighting against fascism. Except they're not, they think anything that disagrees with their view is inherently fascist. White conservative? You're a fascist. This year has pretty.much highlighted the BS to the nth degree.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:Equivocation fallacy.. you're assuming the premise that antifa only 'oppose fascism' (despite that having its own problems with subjectivity) but this is incorrect as NO outlined above.
Lower case a, still.
No fallacy - you're pretending like I'm talking about an organisation. I'm not. I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?
Not Online!!! wrote:Because the Group with capital A doesn't get a bad rep for reasons for many people that use lowercase a.
It's a bit like corbyn got away with really "nice" views in regards to jewish people until very recently.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, it is strange that there seems to be more backlash towards people who want to get rid of fascists than there is towards the actual fascists.
Like, imagine outright saying "I oppose people who oppose fascists".
That's the thing, if only a lot of these people were actually fighting against fascism. Except they're not, they think anything that disagrees with their view is inherently fascist. White conservative? You're a fascist. This year has pretty.much highlighted the BS to the nth degree.
But that's a strawman there.
Many of us in this very thread have been saying very clearly that when we're talking about *fascism*, we mean *fascism*, and yet there's still handwringing about that.
Look, you can worry about the people who are calling right-of-centre fascist, but that's not who we're talking about in this thread.
So, back to what I said - what is wrong is opposing actual honest-to-god fascists?
Basically, people that are in favour of antifa actions often do consider the wanton acts of Antifa to be acceptable and commendable, even IF the local bakery which was owned by a conservative got smashed to bits because feth the fash.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Who cares if the communists are also opposing fascists? No-one's telling you to be a communist.
Nobody but the communists. As I said, BOTH of them can get bent.
The term 'antifa' has been tainted by Antifa. I'd rather people tell me what they're FOR than what they're against.
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.
Is that a problem?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:Basically, people that are in favour of antifa actions often do consider the wanton acts of Antifa to be acceptable and commendable, even IF the local bakery which was owned by a conservative got smashed to bits because feth the fash.
I see - but is that enough to say that all people who oppose actual fascists should be discredited?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 14:26:29
Who cares if the communists are also opposing fascists? No-one's telling you to be a communist.
Nobody but the communists. As I said, BOTH of them can get bent.
The term 'antifa' has been tainted by Antifa. I'd rather people tell me what they're FOR than what they're against.
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.
Is that a problem?
Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
