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queen_annes_revenge wrote:Equivocation fallacy.. you're assuming the premise that antifa only 'oppose fascism' (despite that having its own problems with subjectivity) but this is incorrect as NO outlined above.
Lower case a, still.
No fallacy - you're pretending like I'm talking about an organisation. I'm not. I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?
Depends on how you plan on opposing it. If you mean using reason, and logical discussion to show people why they may be wrong, absolutely. If you mean punching people or any other violent acts, then no.
Also, I don't support trying to kick people out of a hobby. You can refuse them access to personal groups or clubs, but you don't have a right to demand a public company do so on your behalf across the entire enterprise.
Curiosity here - Why?
is a demand somehow separate from other speech? Both I and my partner worked retail for a long time, and I can tell you we got some way, way zanier demands than what you're describing - do people not have a right to make demands? or are you using the word "right" in a different context than you seem to be using it with the rest of your posts?
Demanding that a company do something is free speech. That company then choosing what or what not to do is also completely within their rights, they own their platforms they can decide what to allow or not to allow.
I don't think you have the right to demand a company ideologically cleanses itself to suit your beliefs.
* Or its customers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 14:55:53
Jackal90 wrote: Not online - try not to remove context when highlighting someone’s point of view.
Not including the section that states “in a warhammer setting” dramatically changes it.
Historical and fantasy are entirely different.
Nazi iconography in a FoW type setting? That’s part of the games background and history.
The same in 40k? Why is it even there?
Inserting real world iconography or beliefs is just waiting for issues to arrive.
This is why people need to keep fantasy and reality separate.
preciscly where have i removed context.
Why should someone in the SEA region be prohibitted to paint it on his potato face cdians?
Further, considering some of the heraldry of SM chapters should we also remove it because it reflects upon say the catholic church?
My issue with the argument was that supposedly objective drawing of a line in this matter is reallly not all that objective.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Is your army based around the iconography of ancient Siam? Huh, cool, might want to be careful with the swastikas considering the other connotations but it's abundantly clear from the context that's not what you were going for.
Are you throwing in swastikas where they make no sense for the sake of being edgy? Huh, cool, there's the door.
Context really does exist. I wish people would stop pretending it doesn't.
Regarding context, what if someone modelled their IG army based on one of the armies of WW2? If they chose the German side, are they allowed to use swastikas then? Same goes for if they chose Russia (IG has Commissars, after all), are they allowed to use the sickle & star flag?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I fundamentally disagree about trying to kick people out of the hobby. It probably sounds fine in your head, removing 'fascists' but the problem lies in the practicality, and the fundamental issue of subjectivity when it comes to political opinion. Consider some people on the left would ascribe anyone right of centre a 'fascist'. This is how the purity spirals begin.
And this is why the better option is to leave people with their opinion (if they aren't open to reasonable discussion) and exercise your freedom of association, or in this case, don't.
Commies (like fascists) don't believe in either freedom of opinion or freedom of association. That's the real problem, I think. Their hive mind as identified GW as a territory to take over so now they mobilising a heresy hunt as a pretext for that. They don't really care about fascists because they are basically the same thing as fascists but "fascists" are a useful "baddie" to project on those they want to do over. If they wanted to take a little kid's pocket money or kick a puppy they would call them fascists first to make it okay.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?
If me supporting inclusivity is "not very inclusive", then what about their lack of inclusivity that I'm opposing?
Because the swastika in that region is a symbol of luck. Still in use by budhists and hindus.
I never mentioned the swastika though.
What I *said* was "What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?"
But, as you want to talk about the swastika, I would expect my reaction to be tempered with context.
Now - cultural racism and sexism, that I was *actually* talking about - no, they have no place.
An army has swastikas on it,
Da boss judges that army.
The army comes from SEA region and belongs to a budhist.
Your statement is then that he has to adapt or feck off.
Do you see the issue now?
How many Buddhists do you see drawing swastikas on their models? Genuine question. Secondly, I would want more context into this Buddhist - for example, how those swastikas have been painted, their background and, well, external context.
Because, yanno, if someone comes up with a black slanted swastika on a white circle over a red background, and tells me that they're Buddhist, so it's fine, and they don't see the problem with that - I don't believe a word of what they're saying.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:Yeah, but how often does that happen, people trying to start ethnostates in a games workshop?
It's not about doing it in Games Workshop. It's about someone doing it at all, and opposing them at every step.
You know, because they're trying to start an ethnostate, as you put it.
It probably sounds fine in your head, removing 'fascists' but the problem lies in the practicality, and the fundamental issue of subjectivity when it comes to political opinion. Consider some people on the left would ascribe anyone right of centre a 'fascist'. This is how the purity spirals begin.
Again, but I've made it very clear what I'm talking about, and who I'm talking about.
You're just obsessed with this idea of mispersecution instead of even agreeing that fascists have no place.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.
Is that a problem?
Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.
I oppose cultural racism and sexism, yes. No matter what culture or beliefs you hold, neither of those two are acceptable.
So you are frankly now culturally demanding a dominant right over budhists and a whole slew of south east asia. I'd say that would be culutrally not very inclusive of you.
What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?
If me supporting inclusivity is "not very inclusive", then what about their lack of inclusivity that I'm opposing?
Because the swastika in that region is a symbol of luck. Still in use by budhists and hindus.
Da Boss wrote: Edit: Ach, I better behave myself, I like this thread.
I would find a warhammer army painted with Swastikas and so on really distasteful and I would judge someone who had done that to their minis, for sure. At the very least for having poor taste and being lacking in common sense.
This was his statement, the cultural context of a symbol also matters, all you have shown in your statement is really that you seem to lack shades of thinking and can be percived as ignorant, and i don't mean that as an attack on you but assume in this little scenario the following:
An army has swastikas on it,
Da boss judges that army.
The army comes from SEA region and belongs to a budhist.
Your statement is then that he has to adapt or feck off.
Do you see the issue now?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Are you trying to write this into a HS paper of some sorts? It seems you've put thought into this.
You should read some of the Commissar Cain books or some of the more funny Ork lore than taking the material seriously.
I just made two separate posts about not taking it seriously. You said it's better than a lot of real life fascist situations, I simply pointed out that it's actually a really bad place to live that is, in many ways, worse for its citizens than those real life situations. That's the whole point of the Imperium and why 40K ISN'T a pro-fascist piece of work.
But yes. Orks are funny.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
queen_annes_revenge wrote:Equivocation fallacy.. you're assuming the premise that antifa only 'oppose fascism' (despite that having its own problems with subjectivity) but this is incorrect as NO outlined above.
Lower case a, still.
No fallacy - you're pretending like I'm talking about an organisation. I'm not. I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?
Depends on how you plan on opposing it. If you mean using reason, and logical discussion to show people why they may be wrong, absolutely. If you mean punching people or any other violent acts, then no.
Also, I don't support trying to kick people out of a hobby. You can refuse them access to personal groups or clubs, but you don't have a right to demand a public company do so on your behalf across the entire enterprise.
Curiosity here - Why?
is a demand somehow separate from other speech? Both I and my partner worked retail for a long time, and I can tell you we got some way, way zanier demands than what you're describing - do people not have a right to make demands? or are you using the word "right" in a different context than you seem to be using it with the rest of your posts?
Demanding that a company do something is free speech. That company then choosing what or what not to do is also completely within their rights, they own their platforms they can decide what to allow or not to allow.
I don't think you have the right to demand a company ideologically cleanses itself to suit your beliefs.
So you're a free speech purist that doesn't draw the line at people saying that they're for genocide or murder or whatever, but you draw it at people telling companies to ideologically cleanse themselves to suit their beliefs?
Do you not see that as a fairly outwardly silly position to hold? Surely I can use my free speech to tell a company to do whatever it wants, and they have the freedom to do whatever they want to their property. After all, people have the freedom to tell companies to do a lot of much sillier things, or else I would have gotten a lot of people sent to jail for telling the companies I've worked for to give away their property to them for free or else they'll give us bad reviews on social media. That's like...speech robbery. Do you believe in removing that right as well, You Authoritarian You?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 14:58:16
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
vipoid wrote:I have a question for you on this front - do you believe that all fascists are already beyond redemption?
I believe that some can be convinced to see their misjudgements. But while anyone continues to hold those beliefs, they cannot be courted.
Also, does it matter if they have not acted on their fascist beliefs in any way?
Speech is still action.
I ask because I find myself wondering if it is wise to try and ostracise them so completely from society. Surely making them into outsiders will only reinforce their negative beliefs with regard to society?
If they espouse views that promote that some people should not being in their society, they're doing just the same.
If anything, you might benefit from playing a few games with such individuals and realising that they are, in fact, still human. You may even find that your own desires are not so dissimilar from theirs, and that you can lead them towards a different, less-harmful path.
Ironic, considering that they're the ones not recognising the humanity of others.
No. I would not court them with pleasantries, because their beliefs are *genuinely harmful and predicated on the idea that some people are sub-human*.
Not Online!!! wrote:Close, the issue is the judge part in da bosses statement and the wholesale adoption of smudge.
Basically he wants to be inclusive, yet would judge someone over a symbol that has a completely different cultural value attributed there with his own standards.
That's not what I said at all, unless you're talking about cultural racism and sexism.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Is your army based around the iconography of ancient Siam? Huh, cool, might want to be careful with the swastikas considering the other connotations but it's abundantly clear from the context that's not what you were going for.
Are you throwing in swastikas where they make no sense for the sake of being edgy? Huh, cool, there's the door.
Context really does exist. I wish people would stop pretending it doesn't.
Exactly. Context matters - just daubing on a swastika doesn't mean you're a Nazi, but you'd better have a good reason for doing it and why you're ignorant about the potential connotations.
Because, yanno, if someone comes up with a black slanted swastika on a white circle over a red background, and tells me that they're Buddhist, so it's fine, and they don't see the problem with that - I don't believe a word of what they're saying.
Oh then you are going to love the fact that in polish mountains of Tatry the swastika in a circle is on majority of homes, it is in churchs as mosaicas etc.
Now I ain't claiming that gorals aren't donkey-caves to everyone, because they are, but it is also part of their culture. Been part of it since like celtic times.
What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?
I honestly don't understand how this is suppose to work in real life. If someone came up and said this are the marks you have to hit to be able to joing a sports school and they are the same for everyone, then in both cases you would end up with majority male schools. Women sports departaments would make no sense at all. Same with jobs, women have kids and have family life. If pre christmas or easters someone came up with an equality idea and said that on the 23ed everyone man or woman is going to work till 17:00, not female are not going to be let out of work at 14:00, like it always is, there would be a riot. The number of girls that are interested in joing the obligatory draft, and going through the very unfun health commission at 18 isn't very high either, in fact if someone said that draft is going to be enforced for both sexs there would be country wide riots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:06:28
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Because, yanno, if someone comes up with a black slanted swastika on a white circle over a red background, and tells me that they're Buddhist, so it's fine, and they don't see the problem with that - I don't believe a word of what they're saying.
Oh then you are going to love the fact that in polish mountains of Tatry the swastika in a circle is on majority of homes, it is in churchs as mosaicas etc.
Now I ain't claiming that gorals aren't donkey-caves to everyone, because they are, but it is also part of their culture. Been part of it since like celtic times.
Gee. That sounds just like that context that I was just talking about!
@ smudge, i highlighted your answers to the issue at hand, Yes you were infact judging someone in that case on your own cultural standards , implying a lot of very unfortunate things.
Again, maybee you or i just have phrased that poorly but as it stands that is not inclusive of you.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Jackal90 wrote: Not online - try not to remove context when highlighting someone’s point of view.
Not including the section that states “in a warhammer setting” dramatically changes it.
Historical and fantasy are entirely different.
Nazi iconography in a FoW type setting? That’s part of the games background and history.
The same in 40k? Why is it even there?
Inserting real world iconography or beliefs is just waiting for issues to arrive.
This is why people need to keep fantasy and reality separate.
preciscly where have i removed context.
Why should someone in the SEA region be prohibitted to paint it on his potato face cdians?
Further, considering some of the heraldry of SM chapters should we also remove it because it reflects upon say the catholic church?
My issue with the argument was that supposedly objective drawing of a line in this matter is reallly not all that objective.
Look at your quoted text.
You have underlined the section you question, yet left out the piece that gives context to it.
Because there is a clear line between fantasy and reality, if you cannot see the difference, there is a much larger issue.
Adding elements of either into each other will cause problems, which is why the two are distinctively different.
If you need proof, there’s a reason you do not constantly see armies covered in religious or political iconography.
Most know how to keep the two worlds separate.
Because, yanno, if someone comes up with a black slanted swastika on a white circle over a red background, and tells me that they're Buddhist, so it's fine, and they don't see the problem with that - I don't believe a word of what they're saying.
Oh then you are going to love the fact that in polish mountains of Tatry the swastika in a circle is on majority of homes, it is in churchs as mosaicas etc.
Now I ain't claiming that gorals aren't donkey-caves to everyone, because they are, but it is also part of their culture. Been part of it since like celtic times.
I will never put Karol on ignore because I just can't get enough of my favorite news channel, Extremely Transparently Biased Weirdly Specific Eastern European Political Drama Fun Facts.
Please, Karol, tell me more about your opinions on Gorals from Tatry. How do they differ from the other peoples of Tatry? Can you tell them by their earlobe shape?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I fear then we are in fundamental disagreement because I do not accept that speech and thought are the same as action.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Not Online!!! wrote: @ smudge, i highlighted your answers to the issue at hand, Yes you were infact judging someone in that case on your own cultural standards , implying a lot of very unfortunate things.
Again, maybee you or i just have phrased that poorly but as it stands that is not inclusive of you.
I saw what you highlighted, my comments that culture does not excuse racism or sexism.
It would appear that you find my opposition to cultural racism and sexism "not inclusive."
Quick question though: if you think me standing *up* for inclusivity is "not inclusive", what do you think about those cultures literally being "not inclusive"?
Jackal90 wrote: Not online - try not to remove context when highlighting someone’s point of view.
Not including the section that states “in a warhammer setting” dramatically changes it.
Historical and fantasy are entirely different.
Nazi iconography in a FoW type setting? That’s part of the games background and history.
The same in 40k? Why is it even there?
Inserting real world iconography or beliefs is just waiting for issues to arrive.
This is why people need to keep fantasy and reality separate.
preciscly where have i removed context.
Why should someone in the SEA region be prohibitted to paint it on his potato face cdians?
Further, considering some of the heraldry of SM chapters should we also remove it because it reflects upon say the catholic church?
My issue with the argument was that supposedly objective drawing of a line in this matter is reallly not all that objective.
Look at your quoted text.
You have underlined the section you question, yet left out the piece that gives context to it.
Because there is a clear line between fantasy and reality, if you cannot see the difference, there is a much larger issue.
Adding elements of either into each other will cause problems, which is why the two are distinctively different.
If you need proof, there’s a reason you do not constantly see armies covered in religious or political iconography.
Most know how to keep the two worlds separate.
You come in , state i remove context, proclaim i underline text here, which i didn't so okay...
And in regards to fantasy and reality aswell as symbolisms, you realise what Black templars use as heraldry right? and they are quite a fan favourite i heard.
So again, please show me where i left out context, maybee i am missing something, since normaly i talk german, if you can't then i frankly do wonder what your goal was in your statement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Gee. That sounds just like that context that I was just talking about!
Ain't that sweet.
No it isn't. Polish gorals, aren't buddists from the other part of the world, that have a drasticaly different culture or don't know what swastikas mean, or don't have a memory of what was happening in europe during WWII.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:08:55
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Because, yanno, if someone comes up with a black slanted swastika on a white circle over a red background, and tells me that they're Buddhist, so it's fine, and they don't see the problem with that - I don't believe a word of what they're saying.
Oh then you are going to love the fact that in polish mountains of Tatry the swastika in a circle is on majority of homes, it is in churchs as mosaicas etc.
Now I ain't claiming that gorals aren't donkey-caves to everyone, because they are, but it is also part of their culture. Been part of it since like celtic times.
I will never put Karol on ignore because I just can't get enough of my favorite news channel, Extremely Transparently Biased Weirdly Specific Eastern European Political Drama Fun Facts.
Please, Karol, tell me more about your opinions on Gorals from Tatry. How do they differ from the other peoples of Tatry? Can you tell them by their earlobe shape?
I fear then we are in fundamental disagreement because I do not accept that speech and thought are the same as action.
Are you consciously doing something when talking?
Man, it didn't take long for context to stop mattering to you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:11:17
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Not Online!!! wrote: @ smudge, i highlighted your answers to the issue at hand, Yes you were infact judging someone in that case on your own cultural standards , implying a lot of very unfortunate things.
Again, maybee you or i just have phrased that poorly but as it stands that is not inclusive of you.
I saw what you highlighted, my comments that culture does not excuse racism or sexism. It would appear that you find my opposition to cultural racism and sexism "not inclusive."
Quick question though: if you think me standing *up* for inclusivity is "not inclusive", what do you think about those cultures literally being "not inclusive"?
Just a cheeky Paradox of Intolerance for you.
last time i checked, lowering someones culture down is a practice associated with colonialism and racism. You judged by your subjective , completely removed standards, of this persons army, is therefore a demand that is contrary to your own point of inclusivity.
and for the question? I attempt to show you the pitfalls of your own position, i can hope you realise these or you remain ardently on your position, should you however go beyond words then the reaction will also go beyond words. There's a reason as to why free speech is a given in democratic societies but free action not so much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:15:13
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Quick question though: if you think me standing *up* for inclusivity is "not inclusive", what do you think about those cultures literally being "not inclusive"?
Wait. First of all, why should all cultures be inclusive? That makes no sense. There are very few places in the world, where in theory inclusitivity maybe can be enforced, which doesn't even mean that it works or works good. There are more places in the world, where inclusivity ranges between stupidity to being dead harmful. How do you act inclusive, when you border people that are trying to kill you,as in actualy not in an imaginary way with words.
also deciding the worth of a culture on what ever is inclusive or not is some really messed up thing to do. Because it somehow implies that inclusive cultures are somehow better. And that is yet to be proven in action.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Such time and effort wasted on grand ideas that function no better than a large brush trying to fix problems that are small at local levels.
"Video Games don't cause violence"
"The gun company isn't liable for the shooting because it's with their gun"
And most importantly, "GW isn't responsible for the things crazy people are doing with their models or the feelings those individuals associate with their IP."\
I do agree that, maybe, some virtue signaling from GW might just enough to, very clearly, separate them from the undesirables. Maybe a sign at the door or a disclaimer on the product boxes would be nice. But I do not feel they need to dig into the lore and do anything for the sake of a community who can't go open a dialogue with individuals who may be making everyone uncomfortable and request they cease and desist their stupidity.
The moment we can blame a fantasy for radicalizing somebody is the moment all of entertainment becomes boring. Tap that guy on the shoulder, and ask him to 'stop it'.
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
Gee. That sounds just like that context that I was just talking about!
Ain't that sweet.
No it isn't. Polish gorals, aren't buddists from the other part of the world, that have a drasticaly different culture or don't know what swastikas mean, or don't have a memory of what was happening in europe during WWII.
I didn't say that *only* Buddhists used a swastika. I said that if you did, you need context, of which Buddhism can be one of many.
As for "don't know what swastikas mean" - no, I'm pretty sure they are aware, considering Nazis specifically sought to "Germanize" them.
I will never put Karol on ignore because I just can't get enough of my favorite news channel, Extremely Transparently Biased Weirdly Specific Eastern European Political Drama Fun Facts.
Please, Karol, tell me more about your opinions on Gorals from Tatry. How do they differ from the other peoples of Tatry? Can you tell them by their earlobe shape?
What other people living in tatry? There were no other people living in that area, till communist came. And they mostly removed people from the eastern part. I think you have the wrong idea about how populations work around the world. See most places aren't like the US, we don't have 20+ different nationalities living on top of each other.
And it isn't drama. You want examples from US. The Pueblos and the Navaho do the same thing. I only think the swastikas are more round and they are mostly on yellow circles not white.
And as for the earlobe shape, considering they are made up of clans and ear shapes are hereditary, you could track how many there are, on both sides of tatry.
As for "don't know what swastikas mean" - no, I'm pretty sure they are aware, considering Nazis specifically sought to "Germanize" them.
Oh they didn't have to. Himmler put them on the list of aryans, claiming they weren't slavic, but the descendents of ancient gotts, that didn't joing their brothers on the way to iberia and italy. Zakopane was the second biggest resort for german soldiers durning WWII. And the clans were so strong that not even the communists after WWII could get rid of nazi collaborators.
By what definition? Speaking is an action. It is a physical act of vocalisation.
you know what, next thing you are going to tell us that thinking is physical action too, because to think you need neurons to physical interact with each other. And this is step away from soviet teories that led to mass genocide.All done in the name of equality too, by the way. So equal that we are having the 50 anniversary of purges done on polish workers for being brazen enough to wrong thing. This wrong thinking cost over 200people their lifes and over 2000people were injured, when the military opened fired to workers returning to their factories.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:26:03
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Not Online!!! wrote:last time i checked, lowering someones culture down is a practice associated with colonialism and racism.
Last I checked, discrimination based on race or gender was not inclusive, but I guess you don't care about that, all of a sudden.
Or are you saying that if a culture is discriminatory that it's okay for them not to be inclusive now?
You judged by your subjective , completely removed standards, of this persons army, is therefore a demand that is contrary to your own point of inclusivity.
I didn't mention gak about someone's army. I only talked about cultural racism and sexism, and when an army was brought in, I mentioned a need for context.
Maybe actually read what I'm saying, and don't mix me up for someone else?
There's a reason as to why free speech is a given in democratic societies but free action not so much.
Speech is a form of action, and it's a shame that people don't recognise that.
Karol wrote:
Quick question though: if you think me standing *up* for inclusivity is "not inclusive", what do you think about those cultures literally being "not inclusive"?
Wait. First of all, why should all cultures be inclusive? That makes no sense.
Jesus Christ.
Because all people are created equal, perhaps? Have you heard of this thing called Human Rights?
Because it somehow implies that inclusive cultures are somehow better. And that is yet to be proven in action.
Bloody hell, you really are a piece of work. Okay, let me ask you this - why shouldn't all people be treated equally, irrespective of race, gender, sexuality, or other aspect of their immutable being?
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And in regards to fantasy and reality aswell as symbolisms, you realise what Black templars use as heraldry right? and they are quite a fan favourite i heard.
You are projecting an Iron Cross but it is actually a Maltese Cross. The clue is in the name Black TEMPLARS. The historical crusading catholic knights of Malta happened to use that symbol too. A templar is a religious knight, literally one who fights for the temple.
Fun fact: the knights of Malta are still going after 900 years!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:25:01
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But speech? Saying to me that you believe that some people do not deserve to live because of their race? No, that is action.
I agree.
If someone says that to you, whether at a wargaming table or in a pub, it is for a purpose. They have an objective. That objective is finding likeminded individuals and trying to sway possibly sympathetic individuals towards those ideas.
If I say to someone that I like oldhammer it's not a random meaningless outburst, it's because I want to talk about oldhammer and see if they might like oldhammer too. I am trying to increase the amount of oldhammer-enjoyment and appreciation in my immediate vicinity.
And in regards to fantasy and reality aswell as symbolisms, you realise what Black templars use as heraldry right? and they are quite a fan favourite i heard.
You are projecting an Iron Cross but it is actually a Maltese Cross. The clue is in the name Black TEMPLARS. The historical crusading catholic knights of Malta happened to use that symbol too. A templar is a religious knight, literally one who fights for the temple.
Fun fact the knights of Malta are still going after 900 years!
i come from the german sphere of language-cultural background. I can differ between a maltese and an iron cross. I also know about the rather hillarious context of the crusades which can be regarded as an issue out of a cultural view.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/28 15:26:39
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
