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Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.

Voss wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
We already know why she's in the rooftop, we were told in the movie she was introduced in. As for how an über trained operative located one of the most famous men on the planet making no real effort to hide his identity or location, do we really need that explained?

It'd be nice if the things I'm mocking the series for didn't get played out again and again, yeah.
It doesn't so much need an explanation as it'd be nice if someone in the entire series was shown actually putting in the work, rather than just showing up at the next scene or location with script in hand.

In theory, Hawkeye is one of the more grounded supers, that has to do everything the hard way. Except in this show everything he (or his foes) needs is simply gift wrapped and given:

Where's macguffin X and person of interest? Oh, here on this street ---> I really want someone to try this in NYC, by the way. Just pick a random person who lives in the city, that you know nothing about where they live and what they do, you know their outfit just because they happened to walk through an evening news shot, and just walk around until you run into them. Good luck.

Need to get captured? Just hang out on the street until villains show up. Need to get an ear piece fixed? Just hang out on the street and villains won't show up. Need to talk to one? Go to their place of business and no one will notice.

Macguffin #2? Oh, villain guy literally holds it out. Is he a villain? One name check, and.. yep. They offhand know the company is a laundering front, but not the guy in charge. That requires a whole text.

Macguffin #3? Oh, locator chip. We didn't know it was stolen, but... tadah! Here it is. How many other things are out there that they should just ping to find?

Trick arrows? Cops have a bag in evidence. Random college student can just... ask for evidence tampering. Openly. And they hand deliver them, to a random apartment. To the college kid (who doesn't live there) who's avoiding a police investigation (that's not 100% unlikely because it could be a different unit in a different precinct, but still).

Its just pure nonsense from beginning to end.
There could be something here, but the random flailing, cringe, and plot contrivances are burying the interesting bits.

Need to get caught? Hang out in the street in their territory where they already rocked up to go after Kate. He knows they are watching that area.

Need to find the suit and do the work. Go to the apartment where the fire fighters are. see it's missing. Find the larp sticker. Look into it. Find the groups instagram. Find a video of the guy wearing it. See their next meeting. Go to it. etc etc... You literally watch him do the work.

I could go on.

Yep. He does a bit of searching on his phone, exactly once, for those random LARPing firefighters that habitually rob crime scenes.
He doesn't consider any other possibility (like the mafia group that started the fires the night before), just goes with... that, which frankly struck me as a stretch (that just happened to be right, because that's the level of script we're working with, for what turned out to be a fairly long and agonizing gag. I was honestly surprised they decided to reprise that.)

If there are other scenes you 'could go on' with, please do. I'm honestly curious (given that I gave a half dozen examples among many and you gave one).

 Azreal13 wrote:
Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.

Because criticism creates personal insults from people who don't agree?
I'm definitely not following your logic.

Voss wrote:
Yep. He does a bit of searching on his phone, exactly once, for those random LARPing firefighters that habitually rob crime scenes.
He doesn't consider any other possibility (like the mafia group that started the fires the night before), just goes with... that.

If there are other scenes you 'could go on' with, please do. I'm honestly curious.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.

Because criticism creates personal insults from people who don't agree?
I'm definitely not following your logic.

So your complaint is that the shield agent spy/assassin was good at doing an investigation against idiot civilians who flaunted their find, and we didn't watch him run into a bunch of dead ends first?

 Lance845 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yep. He does a bit of searching on his phone, exactly once, for those random LARPing firefighters that habitually rob crime scenes.
He doesn't consider any other possibility (like the mafia group that started the fires the night before), just goes with... that.

If there are other scenes you 'could go on' with, please do. I'm honestly curious.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.

Because criticism creates personal insults from people who don't agree?
I'm definitely not following your logic.

So your complaint is that the shield agent spy/assassin was good at doing an investigation against idiot civilians who flaunted their find, and we didn't watch him run into a bunch of dead ends first?

Yep. Feel free to be reductive about it. Sure. That's the one issue with the entire four episodes so far, there's nothing else to it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.

That is really mean, but also a top tier insult. Why you guys gotta dogpile on Voss like that? Ignore is an option.

You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.

But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.

How are all these super spies able to find people and things? Crazy

Personally I could use a few extra episodes of them just wandering streets looking for people, staring at computer screens doing internet searches, chasing down dead ends. Just a good hour long montage of nothing happening.

No Way Home releases in the U.K. on Wednesday.

I was gonna book in, but it’s already hella busy. And, with the new lager lurgy variant, whilst there are still seats I’m not sure I trust my fellow humans enough to risk being packed in.

Scratch that…..4pm viewing is in one of the smaller screens, and there’s a nicely isolated Premier seat. So I’ve booked.

They really did get him!

Finally decided to start watching Hawkeye. I didn't have much excitement for this, as while I like Hawkeye just fine I wasn't exactly dying for him to get his own show. After having seen the first 4 episodes I can't believe how much I love it. The people in charge of casting at Marvel are seriously so damn good at their jobs. Kate is such a good addition, Hailee Steinfeld is killing it and I already can't wait to see more of her.

In the last episode, when Clint was trying to warn her about the toll it takes to do what he does, that was some really good passing of the torch storytelling. Really looking forward to the rest of it.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Finally decided to start watching Hawkeye. I didn't have much excitement for this, as while I like Hawkeye just fine I wasn't exactly dying for him to get his own show. After having seen the first 4 episodes I can't believe how much I love it. The people in charge of casting at Marvel are seriously so damn good at their jobs. Kate is such a good addition, Hailee Steinfeld is killing it and I already can't wait to see more of her.

In the last episode, when Clint was trying to warn her about the toll it takes to do what he does, that was some really good passing of the torch storytelling. Really looking forward to the rest of it.

Or passing the arrow storytelling as he literally does that this episode. I'm unexpectedly enjoying it as well. I say unexpectedly mainly because of my very low expectations for preachy Marvel nowadays despite liking the initial release trailer. I didn't bother with Falcon, Wanda, or Loki though and I don't regret it (based off of reviews from sources I trust). I definitely think this is a good way to introduce a new character and wish the series was a bit longer. And, yes, Hailee Steinfeld is completely adorkable in the show which certainly helps. I just hope they stick the landing next week.

 Lance845 wrote:
You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.

But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.

You have to know this is absurd, right? You've got to. Bond, Bourne, Midsummer Murders, 20+ seasons and multiple spinoffs of NCIS, literally hundreds of other shows and movies, remakes of Agatha Christie stuff still happen, for crying out loud. People watch this stuff.

Now, maybe I'm crazy for expecting the MCU's espionage guy to be cast in a espionage/investigation series when his turn came up, but I don't think its unreasonable to want to see that. Or that there somehow isn't an audience for it.
Is it a spoiler thing? I don't look for those (and don't read hollywood news of any kind), so getting baited with the opening then a hard switch to the 'Odd Couple' rather than espionage hit me pretty hard, even if everyone else in the world 'knew it' already.

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.

But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.

You have to know this is absurd, right? You've got to. Bond, Bourne, Midsummer Murders, 20+ seasons and multiple spinoffs of NCIS, literally hundreds of other shows and movies, remakes of Agatha Christie stuff still happen, for crying out loud. People watch this stuff.

Now, maybe I'm crazy for expecting the MCU's espionage guy to be cast in a espionage/investigation series when his turn came up, but I don't think its unreasonable to want to see that. Or that there somehow isn't an audience for it.
Is it a spoiler thing? I don't look for those (and don't read hollywood news of any kind), so getting baited with the opening then a hard switch to the 'Odd Couple' rather than espionage hit me pretty hard, even if everyone else in the world 'knew it' already.

I.... huh. I can't really see how the opening baits anything other than "hey, guys! This is heavily inspired by Fraction's Hawkeye run!" They use all the same visual cues as that one, they even use the same title font, there's the tracksuit gang, there's the pizza dog, there's the Kate Bishop, there's the ear help... And that run is as much the odd couple as it could possibly be.

I don't really know how that was misleading, so I'm obviously missing something, or my expectations were wildly different.

I need a pizza dog. Or both a pizza and a dog!

I've never watched the opening credits as I skip them. I've also never read the comic run so it's doubtful I'd pick up on the queues anyways.

I am 15 minutes in to the new episode of Hawkeye and I have already decided that Yelena is a better Black Widow and she 100% deserves her own show.

Wow. New episode. What a fantastic opening.

Okay just finished it. I think this might be the single best episode of any of the MCU shows so far. Such a killer opening and what a final stinger to the episode. fething killing it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Wow. New episode. What a fantastic opening.

Okay just finished it. I think this might be the single best episode of any of the MCU shows so far. Such a killer opening and what a final stinger to the episode. fething killing it.

Right?! It's so much better than it has any reason to be. I'm honestly so floored. It's criminal there's only 1 episode left. I would have devoured a full 20+ episode season of this.

I can kind of see how this is going to wrap up in the final episode.

Took 5 episodes to introduce us to its villain. Show still doesn't really have a plot.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Took 5 episodes to introduce us to its villain. Show still doesn't really have a plot.

Shhhh, you'll upset the MCU stans. Don't point out problems with the show!

I have to say the blip being shown from the other side was awesome, very clever!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Took 5 episodes to introduce us to its villain. Show still doesn't really have a plot.

Sssssooooooooo… Like most of the other MCU shows? How long was it until we got Agatha’s villain reveal. How long until we saw Kang? Ultron Who Won? I think only Winterfalcon had a clear villain from the beginning and didn’t pull a fake out on you. I’ve been saying since the beginning that Sword Guy was too obvious and a clear red herring.

Again, just because you don’t like the plot doesn’t mean it doesn’t have one.

 AduroT wrote:
Again, just because you don’t like the plot doesn’t mean it doesn’t have one.

No this really lacks an actual story.

WandaVision didn't get us to Agetha until much later on, but the show had an ongoing story. A mystery. We didn't get Kang until the final episode of Loki, but again, the show had a central narrative to take us through. Falcon/Soldier had a strong story, even if it could never figure out if it's central villain was a villain or not.

Am I high? Were there not multiple mysteries established on episode 1?

Who killed the old rich geezer and why?
Who and why were people after the Ronin suit and watch at the auction? And then shortly after that, why were the Tracksuits so eager to catch Ronin?

We still don’t know who killed Armand, or why.

The Ronin suit wasn’t the target, the watch was. We don’t yet know who the watch originally belonged to, nor why it’s of such interest.

The Ronin thing came in because Clint killed Echo’s Dad when he was Ronin. Kate putting it on gave everyone the wrong impression.

There's a plot; its just not particularly focused or engaging. The conflicts are largely small and personal but also kind of impersonal in the sense that they're between characters that don't really connect with each other. Plot is not one of the strong points of the show even after this rather excellent penultimate episode.

A good example is who killed Armando Sr. It's a mystery but almost no one seems all that concerned about it. Kate brings it up occasionally but mostly because she's upset about her mom's sleazy fiancé. The watch is pure mcguffin that gets forgotten as a mcguffin. The one solid bit is the Ronin suit, but its not a mystery. We know why a bunch of criminals are after the guy who went on a murder spree through the criminal underworld.

As relentlessly negative as that all sounds, I'm still rather enjoying the show because its mostly an excuse for character interactions and for the most part I've quite enjoyed them. It's a little more on the level of say, a CW DC show than something like Daredevil or Wandavision or even Falcon and WS, but Arrow and Flash and the rest had some real high points and at a brisk 6 episodes, this hits that without the crippling bloat those shows wallowed in.

 Albertorius wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.

But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.

You have to know this is absurd, right? You've got to. Bond, Bourne, Midsummer Murders, 20+ seasons and multiple spinoffs of NCIS, literally hundreds of other shows and movies, remakes of Agatha Christie stuff still happen, for crying out loud. People watch this stuff.

Now, maybe I'm crazy for expecting the MCU's espionage guy to be cast in a espionage/investigation series when his turn came up, but I don't think its unreasonable to want to see that. Or that there somehow isn't an audience for it.
Is it a spoiler thing? I don't look for those (and don't read hollywood news of any kind), so getting baited with the opening then a hard switch to the 'Odd Couple' rather than espionage hit me pretty hard, even if everyone else in the world 'knew it' already.

I.... huh. I can't really see how the opening baits anything other than "hey, guys! This is heavily inspired by Fraction's Hawkeye run!" They use all the same visual cues as that one, they even use the same title font, there's the tracksuit gang, there's the pizza dog, there's the Kate Bishop, there's the ear help... And that run is as much the odd couple as it could possibly be.

I don't really know how that was misleading, so I'm obviously missing something, or my expectations were wildly different.

Ok, wow. Yeah, you're missing something big: that you can recite a comic run chapter and verse is not the basic expectation of comic book movies/shows. Certainly not the MCU. They (usually) want a broader audience, and don't have any expectations that you already know the story and can fill in all the details from memory.
That explains why we have such different reactions to the show. I haven't read any marvel comics for about 25 years. The details you already know; I just don't have. At all, nor any way to get them. (I mean, i could do a deep google dive at the beginning of a show, but I have zero interest in doing that, I'd much rather watch a show unfold naturally, unspoiled)

I'm reminded of a discussion of fanfiction, and how its a bad way to learn how to write, because the author doesn't learn how to do character introductions, descriptions or connective tissue, because the expectation is the fanfic audience already knows that and doesn't want to be bored or lectured with it. They just want new stories based on what they already know by heart.

Comic movies and shows can't do this. Indeed, the intent with the MCU is to intentionally avoid that and broaden the audience. There is a reason we've seen Uncle Ben and the Wayne parents die a hundred deaths, no intro or reboot can take for granted that the audience knows that stuff. For a (generously) B-list Avenger? For most people he's a blank slate. 'Bow guy' is the best knowledge base they can assume for their audience. Maybe if they've watch previous films, 'espionage guy.'

---
So coming at it knowing nothing? Its just a series of fairly pointless mcguffins. Yelena's introduction does make it better (because here's a character with some stakes beyond 'villains want to kill heroes,' though ironically her goal is murdering the hero- at least its a grounded personal one, rather than a mistaken identity farce with idiots), and retroactively adds some motivation for Natasha for endgame (her infinite sadness and suicide make a lot more sense now that we know she had a blipped sister), and makes it really clear how dirty they did Black Widow for that movie not happening until afterwards.

Of course the biggest thing about Yelena is its really clear the actress actually wants to be here. She's having fun with the role and is really engaged.
Kate's actress mostly is, but it fades at times, particularly when she's clearly lost at things like motivations and story.
Clint's actor looks entirely checked out, 100% of the time. He just wants his retirement series paycheck so he can get out of this contract.

See, i can understand why someone might argue that the plot is weak. I don't agree, but i can see where they might be coming from. But personally i get far more enjoyment from character driven narratives than plot driven. And this is character driven. Not unlike umbrella academy where the "plot" was a couple layers of nonsense that most of the characters had nothing to do with. But the CHARACTERS and their personal gak drove the show.

The argument that Jeremy Renner doesn't look like he wants to be there when clint Barton LITTERALLY doesn't want to be there is crazy to me. He is playing that character in a situation he litterally wants no part in but is trying to set things straight and protect this dumb kid who is in over her head.

Hailey Steinfeld being called lost when her character is lost and confused is equally crazy. Giving praise to Pugh for having cleae direction when her character is the character that has a solid goal she wants very much right in front of her.

It's called acting. And its happening. And that character driven element is the shows strongest points. Seeing how beat down clint is by all his losses is great and humanizing.

Maybe some of us expect more 2 dimensional stories from these characters? I am really glad to have the depth.

At this point in time, Hailee Steinfeld is an average to below average actress and she isn't getting anything special to work with in Hawkeye.
I think Clint is supposed to be over it and Renner is intentionally doing that. It makes sense for that character.
Florence Pugh gets to be an anti-hero/anti-villain as Yelena which has to be more fun than being the dreadfully earnest Kate Bishop.