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Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years!
Which is still objectively different than any former rollout of new units. Check and mate, sir.
Number of units/equipment being rolled out, the scale of the retconning to cram them in, the awakening of a Primarch to oversee it, and the amount of "forwarding" of the setting to do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 17:54:11
The problem is thats stupid to make a game like Warhammer thats constructed under the idea of constant expansion and then write your fluff to not support your marketing model.
In AoS they tried to make the "small armies with no options" but people does not like that kind of stuff.
The implementation of primaris was horrible but I mean. People is always much more judgamental with space marines. When space marines are introduced in any shape or form, people make a big fuss.
When GW introduced new vehicles and stuff for Genestealer Cultists or Orks it was more of an horizontal expansion and they didnt even gave a reason for the sudden existence of a ton of new buggies or mining vehicles and equipement and people was like "ok cool".
But people want their armies to be expanded. Not to have to keep buying new armies like in original AoS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 17:58:21
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Deathwatch melta-fist from 7th, only with a different ranged weapon. Calgar's had bolter-fists since 3rd at least, too, and they're UM wargear for generic characters in 30k.
"Bigger lascannon" is all over the place in 30k. Neutron lasers, laser destroyers, the Deredeo's heavy lascannons.
...and I guess the various grenade launchers technically...
Barely. "Grenade launcher" weapons float around the peripheral of the SM arsenal at least as far back as 5th (Scout bike GLs, auxiliary GLs), the vehicle multi-launchers are foreshadowed by CSM Havoc Launchers going back to 3rd.
...Everything else is borrowed or a tweaked version...
"Intercessors" were Thousand Sons unique Recon squads in 30k before they were Primaris Marines, but only barely (March 2017 to June 2017)
I'm okay with being wrong about those items since my point was there's no innovation and everything's just copied or tweaked
The problem is that still doesn't seem justified within the lore that's been set out for the last 20+ years. I think that's the issue most people have with Primaris. Cawl himself just kind of appears out of nowhere and suddenly he's this central figure that's been working behind the scenes for 10,000 years. That's just bad writing, seemingly used entirely to justify GW's need to revamp the SM miniature line (a similar problem exists with the sudden reveal of Centurions, not helped by the woeful models). Given that it took about 10,000 years to go from Mk VII power armour to Mk VIII the amount of innovation Cawl manages (in secret no less!) is immersion breaking within the rules GW have already established.
To be fair, I half agree with you. The suddeness of primaris is definitely a thing to point to as jarring and frustrating. I'd say it's the worst thing about primaris. That said, I disagree that it was 'lazy writing'. I consider that a cheap shot and I don't say that badly. Like, gw had to introduce a new marines line from a business and ip pov. There were no 'good' ways to.do this without causing a stir (and the previous guy would have aos'ed thr classic line), and I tend to have sympathy for a decision when there were no good alternatives, short of inventing a time machine, going back to the mid 90s and putting teasers in the lore that the codex was gullies phase one, and his plans were a 'lost dream of greatness' - 'think where the imperium could have been if he hadn't been knifed by fulgrim!' Etc.
One final point. Taking 10k years to develop mk8 armour vs cawls innovation and the latter is immersion breaking. Prior to that 10k, in the era of m31 there was a lot of innovation, relatively speaking. Mks 1-7 armour, millions of boltnouns, rhino variants etc. Its perfectly feasible to say that level of innovation from a character from the 41st millennium is immersion breaking, but cawl isn't from the 41st milenium. He's from the 31st, from the era when these things happened. He was in the room when those things were innovated. He was in the room when the emperor and malcador walked the halls. It was a different era and that counts for a lot.
Most of the things you mention as previous innovations are adaptations of existing technology: Land Raider and Land Speeder variants are essentially weapon swaps for existing guns, or adding a tiny area to stand so you can transport some guys and these changes are often portrayed in the lore as close to heresy. The Primaris line comes in with three new types of armour and a bespoke range of ranged weapons. The most egregious problem from a lore point of view are the extra organs in the Primaris genetic code itself, something which is seen as sacred because it's known that SM were something the Emperor was directly involved in creating.
To be fair again, 3 new variants of power armour, all fairly minor variations. Photos is 'rip.some plates off a tacitus suit', gravis is 'slap some extra plates on'. New vehicles are very similar in silhouettes and feel to the old, most being minor variations of 'weapon swaps,or adding a space to stand' . Obly thing new is the anti grav plate, which is a single feature, which is now mass produced. As to the bespoke range of new weapons, a lot if the boltnouns fall into the category of 'adaptations of existing texhnology' and it not like there isn't a wealth of bolter variants anyway (tigris, ultima, phobos, stalker etc) or armour variants (again, power armour mks 1 to 8 and this disguises all the minor variants of each).
I'll give you the extra organs though, its a bit much. Thay said, artificial organs is not an unknown science in its own right. Maybe if this could have been explored more instead , or a wee tdbit that their origin was unknown with suggestions it was from original.geneseed provoking disgust etc... yeah, I can live withbthat.
What's really disappointing to me about the Primaris roll-out and return of Guilliman is that GW had a great opportunity to make it really meaningful in a background sense. We could have had splits within the Imperium itself with dogmatic disagreements over these new innovations leading to meaningful conflict and shifting of allegiances within the background. Instead we get a few throwaway lines about some SM chapters not liking the new Primaris and a couple of High Lords annoyed that their positions are threatened by Guilliman but that's it.
To be fair, there was more to it than that. And for what it's worth i dont necessarily disagree but you need to be careful about shake ups like that. Gw chose a more hands off approach and left it to their players personal choice. I don't necessarily think walking down that route of imperial civil awar would have been a net positive - another game I know of split one one faction out from another in a civil war (infinity split out the space Japanese subfaxtion from the space Chinese main faction) and it annoyed a lot of people, nerfing and invalidating armies etc.
argonak wrote: I'm pretty sure if we could peel back the curtain, Firstborn were all going to get squatted in 2019. But everyone freaked the hell out, and Age of Sigmar's launch had been a dumpster fire, so GW slammed on the brakes.
And lo and behold, firstborn still sell. So GW just shrugged its shoulders, rewrote a bit of fluff and rules, and carried on.
And that's why the SM codex has like 100 data sheet entries. Plus all the supplements.
I don’t think they were getting squatted in 2019, maybe 2022 or 2023 for a move to legends. They still haven’t released all the replacements they’d need to do that.. jump-fight, and aircraft are still missing. Others too, but at least they’ve been announced. I will agree GW had to change their undershorts after seeing the reaction, and the 2W change was a reaction to that.
The Terminator Squad is better than the original Librarian you referred to. Not great, but better. And honestly that second Librarian looks completely plausible given the pose. One shoulder up and one shoulder down.
Beyond that you're fighting with miniatures that are intended to be disproportionate and exaggerated to begin with, to read from several feet away being on the table. So there's two layers of stylization going on, the stylization of the armor itself, and the stylization when the design is put through some re-proportioning to meet the GW table-top model aesthetic. And then the individual sculptor's execution on top of that.
I'm aware of that. But I still think the execution often fails. Especially on more dynamic poses.
Wich is why (despite their art work) I've always just assumed that terminator armor arms don't actually contain the SMs arms.
I also rarely ever use 3e era + termies because of this execution fail. Just my ages old 2e Wolf Guard.
I also prefer the older models. Imo the 2nd ed ones really capture the 'solidness' of what Terminators ought to be. The more dynamic poses of the plastics look goofy to me too. I'm painting some RT era ones for Space Hulk right now, and after that I'll be doing more of my 2nd Ed metals.
That's the thing though, I think the Terminator armor design is totally workable but the execution on it has been lacking, unfortunately. Imo the new Chaos Terminators look pretty nice though. (although their shoulders are still a bit high). Imo the idea behind the Terminator suit is that the power source that would normally be a backpack is encased in that torso armor in the same way a tall backpacking backpack is situated. That pushes the marine forward so his head pops out that neck space at a slightly awkward angle, but allows the shoulders to be further back from the head than they'd normally be if the marine was simply standing upright.
Maybe someday I'll 3d model it with a person properly situated inside, but today is not that day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 20:08:11
What's really disappointing to me about the Primaris roll-out and return of Guilliman is that GW had a great opportunity to make it really meaningful in a background sense. We could have had splits within the Imperium itself with dogmatic disagreements over these new innovations leading to meaningful conflict and shifting of allegiances within the background. Instead we get a few throwaway lines about some SM chapters not liking the new Primaris and a couple of High Lords annoyed that their positions are threatened by Guilliman but that's it.
The “Big Picture” is never going to change. A major schism in the IOM would upset the stalemate and/or invalidate just how knifes-edge that stalemate was. While they can add more characters to create some drama - I frequently hope for The Lion and Russ to be the next Primarchs - given the Johnson-Russ and Johnson-Guilliman conflicts
With the way the Primarch rollout has stalled, I’m just about ready to give even money odds that the Daemon Primarchs will be banished back to the Eye, and Guilliman will be back in cold storage by 10th edition, as the experiment is aborted. The magic bandaid on Cadia’s pylons, but potentially not on Cadians themselves will be even more hamfisted as they roll out a new generic IG body from.
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years!
Which is still objectively different than any former rollout of new units. Check and mate, sir.
Still not objective - the simple act of rolling out new units would suggest that there IS innovation.
The issue at hand is what kind of innovation you are willing to tolerate. That is a subjective manner.
Number of units/equipment being rolled out, the scale of the retconning to cram them in, the awakening of a Primarch to oversee it, and the amount of "forwarding" of the setting to do it.
Sure, and these are your subjective reasons, the things you have chosen, to determine what is, and is not, an "acceptable" innovation. You're welcome to them.
But to others, they might not share these reasons, might not share your rubric for what makes an unacceptable innovation. And that's why it's subjective.
Unit1126PLL wrote:The only standout then was the Razorback, and it's easy to accept that ONE (1) single piece of innovation happened.
Exactly my point - it was easy for you to accept that. It was your subjective tastes and opinions, not because it was "objectively easy".
My point is that folks have a subjective taste, and choose what they are willing to tolerate within developments to the lore, or how much importance is put on certain things. There is no "one-size-fits-all" objective truth here.
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years!
Which is still objectively different than any former rollout of new units. Check and mate, sir.
Still not objective . . .
If you believe that "more at once" is only subjectively different than "less over time", sure. But for those of us that are capable of seeing such distinctions, it's rather clear. I fear we've hit the Sgt.-Smudge-inability-to-recognize-relative-quantities/proportions issue. . . . again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 23:24:49
Exactly my point - it was easy for you to accept that. It was your subjective tastes and opinions, not because it was "objectively easy".
My point is that folks have a subjective taste, and choose what they are willing to tolerate within developments to the lore, or how much importance is put on certain things. There is no "one-size-fits-all" objective truth here.
Wasn't the razorback and all the tank modifications for predators or vindicators, only accepted by the adeptus mechanicus after they found STC designs correlating with the things marine did to basic rhino and predator chassis? And in cases where such STC could not be found, the designed were deemed bordering on the heretical and created problems for the chapters that had implemented them. Like the BAs and their special engines and AC mounts for predators/Librarian dreadnoughts/etc, or required the chapters to exist outside of normal resupply structure, like GK have with their private forge facility on Titan.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Wasn't the razorback and all the tank modifications for predators or vindicators, only accepted by the adeptus mechanicus after they found STC designs correlating with the things marine did to basic rhino and predator chassis? And in cases where such STC could not be found, the designed were deemed bordering on the heretical and created problems for the chapters that had implemented them. Like the BAs and their special engines and AC mounts for predators/Librarian dreadnoughts/etc, or required the chapters to exist outside of normal resupply structure, like GK have with their private forge facility on Titan.
Isn't their forge facility on Deimos (which has been towed into the vicinity of Titan?)
Yes, their private mini forge. Only FW that can manufacture stuff like NDKS, psychic reactive armour for vehicles, blessed ammo out of dust from the emepror throne room. Although I think culexus assasins use something similar too. they even produce xeno tech, which is beyond tech heresy.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years!
Which is still objectively different than any former rollout of new units. Check and mate, sir.
Still not objective . . .
If you believe that "more at once" is only subjectively different than "less over time", sure. But for those of us that are capable of seeing such distinctions, it's rather clear.
Aw, had to resort to calling me stupid to make your argument? Clearly not a strong point, I suppose.
I'm not saying that they're subjectively different. I'm saying that they subjectively *matter*. Clearly, the Imperium innovates, that much is true (see Razorback, any non-lascannon Land Raider, or anything that didn't exist during the Heresy). This then means that the point of contention becomes over if what we're seeing the Imperium do is being done, well, right.
You *believe* that Primaris break some kind of fundamental rule. I *believe* that they don't. You can point to reason *why* you might believe they break those rules, and I can point to my reasons why they don't. Ultimately, it is our subjective interpretations of the setting that these are based in. Have I hammered it home hard enough? We're seeing the same stuff - we're just interpreting it differently.
The other difference being that I respect your view, however much I disagree with it. Instead, you just seem to sneer down your nose.
Ah well. Guess I shouldn't have expected anything more.
Karol wrote:Wasn't the razorback and all the tank modifications for predators or vindicators, only accepted by the adeptus mechanicus after they found STC designs correlating with the things marine did to basic rhino and predator chassis? And in cases where such STC could not be found, the designed were deemed bordering on the heretical and created problems for the chapters that had implemented them. Like the BAs and their special engines and AC mounts for predators/Librarian dreadnoughts/etc, or required the chapters to exist outside of normal resupply structure, like GK have with their private forge facility on Titan.
The issue with that is that you then end up with things like Land Raiders which seem to get modifications made every time something goes slightly pear shaped, and no-one bats an eyelid (examples being the Crusader, Redeemer, and Ares).
Basically, there's a wee bit of a lore inconsistency, and it's down to the players to interpret that how they like. I, personally, interpret multiple Chapters having many field modifications to their vehicles in times of need - the issue is then having the spare resources to make that a more permanent part of their Chapter arsenal beyond that campaign (if they even do keep it beyond that campaign), and then disseminating that across the breadth of Space Marine Chapters out there (if the Chapter so wants to - I get the idea that Chapters are called heretical not because of their minor modifications, but that they don't like to share them, because Chapters are tribal like that).
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AnomanderRake wrote: Wait, why don't GK have Deimos-pattern Rhinos or Predators if they stole Deimos, then?
Potentially could be a case of them being called Deimos-pattern because they were invented/discovered on Deimos, but the creation of them was outsourced to other forge worlds? But yeah, more likely just an oversight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/27 02:31:59
Insectum7 wrote:None of which counters the fact that on the scale of millenia upon which those earlier advancements progressed on, the Primaris popped onto the scene all at once, with more advancements than all of those previous iterations combined.
They popped onto the scene all at once... after being under construction for 10,000 years!
Which is still objectively different than any former rollout of new units. Check and mate, sir.
Still not objective . . .
If you believe that "more at once" is only subjectively different than "less over time", sure. But for those of us that are capable of seeing such distinctions, it's rather clear.
Aw, had to resort to calling me stupid to make your argument? Clearly not a strong point, I suppose.
I'm not saying that they're subjectively different.
Insectum7 wrote: Weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle chassis are 'objectively' not equivalent to
A reawakened Primarch
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles
New armor variants on
New Marines carrying
Entirely new classes of weapons.
But they do represent progress and development.
Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you . . .
No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.
I've been saying there are objective, empirical differences with the rollout of Primaris, both in and out of universe. You have been denying such differences all the way.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But they do represent progress and development. Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you . . .
No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.
I've been saying there are objective, empirical differences with the rollout of Primaris, both in and out of universe. You have been denying such differences all the way.
No, you've listed differences, and said that this is apparently objective proof why XYZ.
I never denied those differences - only the severity of them. Look what you quoted me saying - "Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you". I'm not discussing the difference. I'm discussing if the difference matters. That's something you can't objectively prove.
Come on, if you're going to quote me, read the quote.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/27 03:36:57
AnomanderRake wrote: Wait, why don't GK have Deimos-pattern Rhinos or Predators if they stole Deimos, then?
Stole? The moon forge was granted to them by the Sigilite, not even Gulliman could take it away from them.
I assume the name comes from someone important. And just like there were a bunch of Alexandrias, there can be a bunch of things called with the name of some well known dude.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
AnomanderRake wrote: Wait, why don't GK have Deimos-pattern Rhinos or Predators if they stole Deimos, then?
I assume the name comes from someone important. And just like there were a bunch of Alexandrias, there can be a bunch of things called with the name of some well known dude.
Deimos is a moon. Like, in real life. It orbits mars. I assume there aren't multiple celestial bodies named "Deimos" in Warhammer for the same reason we've never seen a battle take place on Pluto IV. We have also, to my knowledge, never seen a person named Pluto in 40K history (although given some of the RT-era names, you can never truly be sure).
Yes and Malcador the Sigilite, used his power of the warp, second only to that of the emperor. To create a time stasis around Titan and traktor beam Deimos close to Titan, to blink both out of existance for a few milenia. In which time they build the GK warp gates, the nemezis, few thousand pairs of suits of termintor armour, psy titans that protect the GK inner sanctum and learned how to use and manufacture necron and eldar tech. And then they blinked in to existance and pretended that they were always there. Which by the way was strange for the adeptus mechanicus on Diamos, because they kind of a missed all the synods and agreements done on mars up to the 32milenium. Which kind of means they aren't beholden to most of the laws that govern all other mechanicus. So they plow through arechotech, don't sent STC designs to Mars and do , heretical for all other mechanicus, things like inventing new crystaline matrixs for termintor and power armour or non standard ammo types for bolters. For example the blessed ammo for GK bolter weapons is used using the psychoactive dust present in the hall where the golden throne is located. The Deimos ad mecha didn't even know the Emperor was enthroned in to it, till they poped out of the time stasis way after heresy. And then they had to find a need for such ammo, research and find out that the dust exists at all, and then invent ways to use it as part of the non standard GK bolter weapons.
The Deimos mechanicus have more incommon with free forge smiths in Hydraphur, then actual moder day adeptus. They just know more stuff to make, then just one type of rare gun or cyber assasin beetles.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: No, you've listed differences, and said that this is apparently objective proof why XYZ.
I never denied those differences - only the severity of them. Look what you quoted me saying - "Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you". I'm not discussing the difference. I'm discussing if the difference matters. That's something you can't objectively prove.
Come on, if you're going to quote me, read the quote.
Dude stop dancing around the truth of the situation. The difference matters, because non-Primaris factions are losing options out of their codices to make room for more Primaris stuff in the pipeline, and it's hard to get restocks on a lot of non-SM stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/27 21:17:40
AnomanderRake wrote: Wait, why don't GK have Deimos-pattern Rhinos or Predators if they stole Deimos, then?
I assume the name comes from someone important. And just like there were a bunch of Alexandrias, there can be a bunch of things called with the name of some well known dude.
Deimos is a moon. Like, in real life. It orbits mars. I assume there aren't multiple celestial bodies named "Deimos" in Warhammer for the same reason we've never seen a battle take place on Pluto IV. We have also, to my knowledge, never seen a person named Pluto in 40K history (although given some of the RT-era names, you can never truly be sure).
There's also the fact that Deimos the moon is explicitly a sub-Forge World and the Deimos-pattern Rhino explicitly comes from the forges of Deimos, as opposed to the Mars-pattern Rhino (the plastic one). If the GK got Deimos it's definitely the same moon.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: No, you've listed differences, and said that this is apparently objective proof why XYZ.
I never denied those differences - only the severity of them. Look what you quoted me saying - "Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you". I'm not discussing the difference. I'm discussing if the difference matters. That's something you can't objectively prove.
Come on, if you're going to quote me, read the quote.
Dude stop dancing around the truth of the situation.
I'm sorry, what? I believe we were discussing if Primaris were "objectively" bad for the setting. There wasn't a truth other than "it's down to your personal opinion". But, as that seems to have generally resolved, sure, I'll talk about the other point you raise.
The difference matters, because non-Primaris factions are losing options out of their codices to make room for more Primaris stuff in the pipeline, and it's hard to get restocks on a lot of non-SM stuff.
I'd argue that's more of a "Space Marine" thing than a Primaris one. Primaris are an excellent excuse to make a bunch more Space Marine releases, but I think we'd be naïve if we didn't think they'd still have massive Marine saturation.
It's less a Primaris issue, and more a Space Marine issue overall. But you're definitely not wrong that there's an issue with how much Space Marines get compared to everyone else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/28 02:14:53
We haven't even hit the Chapter specific sculpt phase of Malibu Astartes new hat.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm sorry, what? I believe we were discussing if Primaris were "objectively" bad for the setting. There wasn't a truth other than "it's down to your personal opinion". But, as that seems to have generally resolved, sure, I'll talk about the other point you raise.
No, there are certain things that just make for bad storytelling. Breaking the established rules of the setting - like Primaris do, being the product of unprecedented innovation on the IoM's part - is considered a bad move. But you know that, I'm sure; your lies and general bad faith argumentation give the truth of that.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's less a Primaris issue, and more a Space Marine issue overall. But you're definitely not wrong that there's an issue with how much Space Marines get compared to everyone else.
If it weren't for Primaris the issue would be tolerable, so it's a Primaris issue.
