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 Galas wrote:
How is terminators having transhuman for being DA different to terminators having +1 to charge and advance rolls and +1 to wound for being BA?

Because that's not all they get.

On top of the regular Dark Angels benefits (which is the immune to morale and +1 to hit (range or melee)) when standing still, they get the Inner Circle ability. THAT is how it is different.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And that makes the matter more complicated. Damn it gw.

Very. I'm still wrapping my head around all of it. I'm trying to reboot my tool, because it is needed more than ever to gather information efficiently.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
How is terminators having transhuman for being DA different to terminators having +1 to charge and advance rolls and +1 to wound for being BA?

Because that's not all they get.

On top of the regular Dark Angels benefits (which is the immune to morale and +1 to hit (range or melee)) when standing still, they get the Inner Circle ability. THAT is how it is different.

So they receive benefits that , just as always, are nearly completely useless for them (Specially when terminators have a 1Cp stratagem to get +1 to hit), like historically DA terminators have received. First time they receive something that is actually usefull for them for being DA... people starts saying they are completely insane? In all of 8th the Dark Angel subfaction rule was useless for both Ravenwing and Deathwing thats why they had their own bonuses (Jinx was and is good but the deathwing rules were absolute crap). And in 9th , again, the DA subfaction rule (On top of being nice but not bonkers op), is nearly useless for both ravenwing and deathwing.

Or worse. That it is unfair for other chapters! Cry me a river FFS.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
How is terminators having transhuman for being DA different to terminators having +1 to charge and advance rolls and +1 to wound for being BA?

Because that's not all they get.

On top of the regular Dark Angels benefits (which is the immune to morale and +1 to hit (range or melee)) when standing still, they get the Inner Circle ability. THAT is how it is different.

So they receive benefits that , just as always, are nearly completely useless for them (Specially when terminators have a 1Cp stratagem to get +1 to hit), like historically DA terminators have received. First time they receive something that is actually usefull for them for being DA... people starts saying they are completely insane? In all of 8th the Dark Angel subfaction rule was useless for both Ravenwing and Deathwing thats why they had their own bonuses (Jinx was and is good but the deathwing rules were absolute crap). And in 9th , again, the DA subfaction rule (On top of being nice but not bonkers op), is nearly useless for both ravenwing and deathwing.

Or worse. That it is unfair for other chapters! Cry me a river FFS.

How the hell is +1 to hit when standing still useless for a unit that will be standing still a bunch of the time since they'll always get thir max number of hits at 24"? The turn after you Deep Strike it's a VERY good bonus.

Its unfair to everyone. Very few armies have layers of stacking faction, subfaction and sub-subfaction rules, with an additional layer of sub-subfaction formation specialization rules with yet more benefits.

And in 9th , again, the DA subfaction rule (On top of being nice but not bonkers op), is nearly useless for both ravenwing and deathwing.

It really isn't. For one thing, they get additional rules on top. For another +1 to hit with the terminators isn't that hard to get except for _maybe_ the turn they arrive or if they charge. But then they get it on the enemy turn in combat, and any turns they stand and shoot. Or take charges.

But of course they also get their own DW doctrine bonuses and also the basic inner circle bonus, where DA terminators are magically shrugging off high strength, high AP weapons by a significant amount because DW is super-dupery more durable than any other terminator can be for free, because... um. Well, no one is sure why. They're just in favor again this edition so they get free bonuses.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How the hell is +1 to hit when standing still useless for a unit that will be standing still a bunch of the time since they'll always get thir max number of hits at 24"? The turn after you Deep Strike it's a VERY good bonus.

Still have to get on the objective. The +1 will come into play more when they're shooting into combat.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How the hell is +1 to hit when standing still useless for a unit that will be standing still a bunch of the time since they'll always get thir max number of hits at 24"? The turn after you Deep Strike it's a VERY good bonus.

Still have to get on the objective. The +1 will come into play more when they're shooting into combat.

Is that another DA goodie? They can shoot into combat? Man...really makes Ultramarines fall back and shoot kinda pointless huh? Can fall back and shoot at -1 but DA can sit in combat and shoot and then assault?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How the hell is +1 to hit when standing still useless for a unit that will be standing still a bunch of the time since they'll always get thir max number of hits at 24"? The turn after you Deep Strike it's a VERY good bonus.

Still have to get on the objective. The +1 will come into play more when they're shooting into combat.

Is that another DA goodie? They can shoot into combat? Man...really makes Ultramarines fall back and shoot kinda pointless huh? Can fall back and shoot at -1 but DA can sit in combat and shoot and then assault?

Falling back and shooting is arguably better, because you open the option for other guns to hit the target.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

So you literally won't play the game by the rules because... reasons...

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

So you literally won't play the game by the rules because... reasons...

I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't humor DA players because I am not gonna play with some BS rules that I know will be nerfed within a month.

Like...at some point you just stop playing the game man. Would you play a game where literally every model in an opponents army got 2++ saves on every unit with 4+ FNP to mortals...regardless of whatever minor hoops they had to jump through to get it? Cause I wont. This is boarding on that right now. We have command points for a reason - they have costs on stratagems for a reason...not so some armies can just get the benefits for free while others have to pay for it. It is so obviously OP there is no point in playing against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How the hell is +1 to hit when standing still useless for a unit that will be standing still a bunch of the time since they'll always get thir max number of hits at 24"? The turn after you Deep Strike it's a VERY good bonus.

Still have to get on the objective. The +1 will come into play more when they're shooting into combat.

Is that another DA goodie? They can shoot into combat? Man...really makes Ultramarines fall back and shoot kinda pointless huh? Can fall back and shoot at -1 but DA can sit in combat and shoot and then assault?

Falling back and shooting is arguably better, because you open the option for other guns to hit the target.

How do they get it? Is it a stratagem? Or just automatic?

It is arguably situational - but ignore morale is 100% better than +1 leadership. +1 to hit when shooting when standing still is certainly better than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 - ESP when you can just shoot into combat. ESP if the unit that is staying in combat has freaking power fists.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

So you literally won't play the game by the rules because... reasons...

I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't humor DA players because I am not gonna play with some BS rules that I know will be nerfed within a month.

You literally don't even know the DA rules and you're out here crying about the sky falling.

Like...at some point you just stop playing the game man. Would you play a game where literally every model in an opponents army got 2++ saves on every unit with 4+ FNP to mortals...regardless of whatever minor hoops they had to jump through to get it?

It's a good thing that this isn't a rule anybody gets.

Cause I wont. This is boarding on that right now. We have command points for a reason - they have costs on stratagems for a reason...not so some armies can just get the benefits for free while others have to pay for it. It is so obviously OP there is no point in playing against it.

It sounds like you should take a break from the game. You literally don't know what you're talking about and it's making you hysterical.

How do they get it? Is it a stratagem? Or just automatic?

Go get the rules and see for yourself rather than crying about rules you haven't read.

 bullyboy wrote:
Actually it won't.
When the lists start hitting the table and people find that it's nowhere near as bad as people think (they will still drop to massed S4 weaponry like before), and DA players realize they run out of points really, really quickly, all will be forgotten as people complain about the next codex.

There is so much to like in the codex, but when you start to try and compile a list to make use of it all, you find your force is much smaller than anticipated. Just looking at characters alone, people say you'll want a Librarian, probably 2. Then of course the bike chaplain. That talonmaster brings a lot to the table, don't want to leave him out. Then there is the Ravenwing apothecary, upgraded, need him. i don't have someone to reroll hits, need to bring a Master in there somewhere. Oh, and that terminator ancient for the -1D to my terminators. Am I missing anything? Oh yeah, my actual units.

Just with nothing but deathwing, you can put together an army better at what custodes do than custodes for cheaper, and custodes are NOT a weak army.

Marines typically have to take more losses than the unit to suffer morale. Only when leadership stacking comes in does it get feasible. A passive leadership buff will otherwise come into play on several spells including DA's special smite.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

So you literally won't play the game by the rules because... reasons...

I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't humor DA players because I am not gonna play with some BS rules that I know will be nerfed within a month.

Like...at some point you just stop playing the game man. Would you play a game where literally every model in an opponents army got 2++ saves on every unit with 4+ FNP to mortals...regardless of whatever minor hoops they had to jump through to get it? Cause I wont. This is boarding on that right now. We have command points for a reason - they have costs on stratagems for a reason...not so some armies can just get the benefits for free while others have to pay for it. It is so obviously OP there is no point in playing against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How the hell is +1 to hit when standing still useless for a unit that will be standing still a bunch of the time since they'll always get thir max number of hits at 24"? The turn after you Deep Strike it's a VERY good bonus.

Still have to get on the objective. The +1 will come into play more when they're shooting into combat.

Is that another DA goodie? They can shoot into combat? Man...really makes Ultramarines fall back and shoot kinda pointless huh? Can fall back and shoot at -1 but DA can sit in combat and shoot and then assault?

Falling back and shooting is arguably better, because you open the option for other guns to hit the target.

How do they get it? Is it a stratagem? Or just automatic?

It is arguably situational - but ignore morale is 100% better than +1 leadership. +1 to hit when shooting when standing still is certainly better than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 - ESP when you can just shoot into combat. ESP if the unit that is staying in combat has freaking power fists.

Infantry (except deathwing) in tactical doctrine can shoot at units that are within engagement range of them at a 5+ (4+ cause they will not have moved)

stratigo wrote:
Just with nothing but deathwing, you can put together an army better at what custodes do than custodes for cheaper, and custodes are NOT a weak army.

DW will never match the durability of Shield Captains.

Everything is S5/T5. Proper Custodes termies are W4 and double the base attacks of regular terminators. Everything is BS2/WS2. Their melee can be S8 without being -1 to hit. DA might be technically more durable, but I don't think they're as flexible. And Custodes are due quite a few changes especially considering the new stormshield would almost be a moot point for them -- unless it allows them to be 1+/3++.

Then there is Tanglefoot, Lions, 1CP interrupt, and Stooping Dive. And they're built to pair with another army and do extraordinarily well with Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Infantry (except deathwing) in tactical doctrine can shoot at units that are within engagement range of them at a 5+ (4+ cause they will not have moved)

Oh right - forgot the DW exclusion. So many little things.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

So you literally won't play the game by the rules because... reasons...

I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't humor DA players because I am not gonna play with some BS rules that I know will be nerfed within a month.

You literally don't even know the DA rules and you're out here crying about the sky falling.

Like...at some point you just stop playing the game man. Would you play a game where literally every model in an opponents army got 2++ saves on every unit with 4+ FNP to mortals...regardless of whatever minor hoops they had to jump through to get it?

It's a good thing that this isn't a rule anybody gets.

Cause I wont. This is boarding on that right now. We have command points for a reason - they have costs on stratagems for a reason...not so some armies can just get the benefits for free while others have to pay for it. It is so obviously OP there is no point in playing against it.

It sounds like you should take a break from the game. You literally don't know what you're talking about and it's making you hysterical.

How do they get it? Is it a stratagem? Or just automatic?

Go get the rules and see for yourself rather than crying about rules you haven't read.

This almost feels like the SAME BS that everyone said about ironhands when it was coming out. Listen. When the sky is actually falling. It is good practice to let people know. These rules are bonkers level. As bonkers as Ynnari shooting twice for killing a unit or as bonkers as being able to stay in dev doctrine all game with reroll 1's to hit. This is that bonkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Just with nothing but deathwing, you can put together an army better at what custodes do than custodes for cheaper, and custodes are NOT a weak army.

DW will never match the durability of Shield Captains.

Everything is S5/T5. Proper Custodes termies are W4 and double the base attacks of regular terminators. Everything is BS2/WS2. Their melee can be S8 without being -1 to hit. DA might be technically more durable, but I don't think they're as flexible. And Custodes are due quite a few changes especially considering the new stormshield would almost be a moot point for them -- unless it allows them to be 1+/3++.

Then there is Tanglefoot, Lions, 1CP interrupt, and Stooping Dive. And they're built to pair with another army and do extraordinarily well with Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Infantry (except deathwing) in tactical doctrine can shoot at units that are within engagement range of them at a 5+ (4+ cause they will not have moved)

Oh right - forgot the DW exclusion. So many little things.

So that is their super doctrine. Ehh - not very good. Very good for none deathwing though.

This is a complete overreaction (I expect it from Xeno), especially when many are not actually reading the rules correctly.
I played the index several weeks ago with 2-3 DW units, good, yes, indestructible? Heck no.
And if you think DW are just going to sit still all game to use the +1 to hit (slayer), then you really are not playing 9th.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This almost feels like the SAME BS that everyone said about ironhands when it was coming out. Listen. When the sky is actually falling. It is good practice to let people know. These rules are bonkers level. As bonkers as Ynnari shooting twice for killing a unit or as bonkers as being able to stay in dev doctrine all game with reroll 1's to hit. This is that bonkers.

Did you actually read the IH rules or were you just following the crowd and basing things off of rumors then as well? Being right once doesn't mean that every time strong rules come out we're seeing IH 2.0 so you need to read the rules and understand competitive play before you make those calls.

 bullyboy wrote:
This is a complete overreaction (I expect it from Xeno), especially when many are not actually reading the rules correctly.
I played the index several weeks ago with 2-3 DW units, good, yes, indestructible? Heck no.
And if you think DW are just going to sit still all game to use the +1 to hit (slayer), then you really are not playing 9th.

They can do so perfectly, under the assumption they HAVE TO MOVE NO MATTER WHAT is kinda short sighted of you.

It is really funny to see posters who basically tell Xenos players to shut up and sit down when they complain complaining about the newest marine release.

Enjoy it lads! Maybe it will help ye to grow some empathy, I won't be holding my breath.

Whos a Xenos player? I play DA, Custodes and Tau. We should stop putting labels like that gives you some kind of legitimacy when most people that plays 40k has a couple of armies. Most have both marines and xenos armies.

 Galas wrote:
Whos a Xenos player? I play DA, Custodes and Tau. We should stop putting labels like that gives you some kind of legitimacy when most people that plays 40k has a couple of armies. Most have both marines and xenos armies.

Xeno = Xenomancers, the poster

It’s funny to see DA finally get some love and watch all the super competitive players get upset. I mostly play for fun so I’m good after we had trash rules in 7th and 8th edition we didn’t even get doctrines until the end of 8th with the PA book finally dropping. Still wish we had a primarchs though and the fact this is in the first wave of codecs means that other factions will probably get rules similar or better than these. The 5+ to hit in close combat is nice fluff wise most DA books I read show how they are proficient with the sword and gun rather than unarmed combat so kind of fits. In 7th we had a 4+ overwatch so haters had to complain about that also.

Literally NOBODY complained about a Overwatch 4+ because you forfeit free vehicles (which they didn't get anyway) LOL

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This almost feels like the SAME BS that everyone said about ironhands when it was coming out. Listen. When the sky is actually falling. It is good practice to let people know. These rules are bonkers level. As bonkers as Ynnari shooting twice for killing a unit or as bonkers as being able to stay in dev doctrine all game with reroll 1's to hit. This is that bonkers.

Did you actually read the IH rules or were you just following the crowd and basing things off of rumors then as well? Being right once doesn't mean that every time strong rules come out we're seeing IH 2.0 so you need to read the rules and understand competitive play before you make those calls.

It is clear that I am learning about the rules right as they are being made available to us. You know because...they aren't out yet. I think we understand it fully now.

(These are not okay)(no other marines get special rules here)
DW get free transhuman and obesc.
RW gets free jink.
These are free rules no other marines get anything like.

(These are okay)(all marines special rules in this area)
Chapter tactic is +1 to hit if stationary (Pretty good overall) hitting on 2's with a captains aura essentially gives you reroll all hits.
DA super doctrine in tactical is they can shoot into combat hitting on a 4+... DW can't. Pretty freaking good.

People are more than likely being overly negative about the Dark Angels release and its impact on the game. But, it seems to be a symptom of a much larger problem. Seems to have little to do with people not liking Dark Angels, and more the exhaustion of Space Marine releases as a whole. Just speculation though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This almost feels like the SAME BS that everyone said about ironhands when it was coming out. Listen. When the sky is actually falling. It is good practice to let people know. These rules are bonkers level. As bonkers as Ynnari shooting twice for killing a unit or as bonkers as being able to stay in dev doctrine all game with reroll 1's to hit. This is that bonkers.

Did you actually read the IH rules or were you just following the crowd and basing things off of rumors then as well? Being right once doesn't mean that every time strong rules come out we're seeing IH 2.0 so you need to read the rules and understand competitive play before you make those calls.

It is clear that I am learning about the rules right as they are being made available to us. You know because...they aren't out yet. I think we understand it fully now.

(These are not okay)(no other marines get special rules here)
DW get free transhuman and obesc.
RW gets free jink.
These are free rules no other marines get anything like.

(These are okay)(all marines special rules in this area)
Chapter tactic is +1 to hit if stationary (Pretty good overall) hitting on 2's with a captains aura essentially gives you reroll all hits.
DA super doctrine in tactical is they can shoot into combat hitting on a 4+... DW can't. Pretty freaking good.

Technically for the mid doctrine it is a 5+ to hit, but semantics of course since if they didn't move it won't matter.

 Da Boss wrote:
It is really funny to see posters who basically tell Xenos players to shut up and sit down when they complain complaining about the newest marine release.

Enjoy it lads! Maybe it will help ye to grow some empathy, I won't be holding my breath.

Okay reality check.

Marines aren't even a top 3 army in competitive play.
Sisters
Daemons
Harliquens
and Custodes

win more games than marines do.

Marines a solid army right now. No question about it. As long as those armies above are doing better than marines are though. You have no place to complain about marines. It is actually quite logical though to attack this DA release. They get rules that other marines don't get...as well as all the special rules that come from being in a marine dex....at the cost of 0. It literally can't get more obvious than that. It is unarguably unfair.

So it is very simple...If you think marines are OP right now...you must certainly think giving them army wide access...for free...of pretty much the best stratagem in the space marine codex. 4+ max to wound for the cost of nothing (but picking the units you want to take anyways) is much more OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This almost feels like the SAME BS that everyone said about ironhands when it was coming out. Listen. When the sky is actually falling. It is good practice to let people know. These rules are bonkers level. As bonkers as Ynnari shooting twice for killing a unit or as bonkers as being able to stay in dev doctrine all game with reroll 1's to hit. This is that bonkers.

Did you actually read the IH rules or were you just following the crowd and basing things off of rumors then as well? Being right once doesn't mean that every time strong rules come out we're seeing IH 2.0 so you need to read the rules and understand competitive play before you make those calls.

It is clear that I am learning about the rules right as they are being made available to us. You know because...they aren't out yet. I think we understand it fully now.

(These are not okay)(no other marines get special rules here)
DW get free transhuman and obesc.
RW gets free jink.
These are free rules no other marines get anything like.

(These are okay)(all marines special rules in this area)
Chapter tactic is +1 to hit if stationary (Pretty good overall) hitting on 2's with a captains aura essentially gives you reroll all hits.
DA super doctrine in tactical is they can shoot into combat hitting on a 4+... DW can't. Pretty freaking good.

Technically for the mid doctrine it is a 5+ to hit, but semantics of course since if they didn't move it won't matter.

Auto applied it.

I'm honestly not that bothered about which colour space marines are currently the most over powered. Just paint your dudes green if you want these buffs, no problem.

Darsath wrote:
People are more than likely being overly negative about the Dark Angels release and its impact on the game. But, it seems to be a symptom of a much larger problem. Seems to have little to do with people not liking Dark Angels, and more the exhaustion of Space Marine releases as a whole. Just speculation though.

As noted previously - DA had this rule previously and no restrictions for the detachments.

According to the Metawatch they recorded just over 600 games for DA and they had a 50% win rate from Nov through Jan so it was good, but not oppressive. Now they're obsec with restrictions. Let's see how it plays out.

We can take a trip back to when it came out and see people freak out just the same:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/j6m7mu/october_2020_faq_update_review_dark_angels/