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Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.

Huh? What clear "standout faction" is there in infinity? And what metric are you using? Because most factions see some releases every year at least and the delta in winrate in tournaments is a lot smaller than 40k's.

According to the polish forums it is nomads, combined army follow by something caller waruna, but I have strong feeling the last thing is a slang term in polish.

Those were 3 of the better armies in the last edition (last one is "Varuna") but when i say better, i don't mean that they have 60%+ winrate while other factions have 40%- winrates.

latest tournament results i could find with a quick research put armies from 42% to 52%, with the second worse at 44%. In my eyes, that is much better than what 40k accomplishes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Fair enough some sectorials not seeing releases, but theyre still seeing rules updates, unlike 40k's forgotten factions. I can still play Acon with the updated points and rules even if the sectorial is OOP and still feel on an even footing as other N4 armies.

This part is a bit of an outlier though. Tohaa are still regarded as a garbage faction, as far as I'm aware, even with updated points and rules. Acon's power level scales with the fact that a good chunk of its items also are in Varuna or Military Orders.

And sure, tournaments winrates dont reflect how balanced a game is for its playerbase (considering most arent tournament players). I just find that infinity has a much solid ruleset and every faction can do good. I'd pick infinity over 40k any day of the week for a competitive wargame experience. 40k is purely for chilling with friends while throwing dice and not caring about the outcome of the game.

Your experience is your experience, I guess. Mine is that the "solid ruleset" for Infinity requires you to basically always be online, constantly monitoring for FAQs or weird "rulings" from people that aren't even part of the actual company and extensively devoting time strictly to learning the ins and outs of Infinity. There's a reason people refer to it as a "lifestyle game".

Tohaa have been winning many tournaments lately, and Acon/MO share only their remotes with Varuna. MO is still considered as a lower power faction (this might change with the ongoing rework)

As for the rules. CB gives a free wiki that is kept up-to-date with rules updates. With N4 getting rid of the nested rules, you legit only need to click the name of an ability to be redirected to the corresponding wiki page. Of course you need to refer to it often when you learn the game considering there is much more going on in that game than in 40k.

Even if Nomads are the favourite faction, it's nowhere near comparable to Space Marines in 40K.

On High Elves, I'd say they're pretty clearly also influenced by the elves in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, as well as Moorcock's Elric series, particularly the affinity with dragons and some of the naming conventions. And then you can splash in some LOTR (but not as much as people seem to think - I see lots of people claiming WFB is "just tolkienesque fantasy" but the influences really do come from more than just Tolkien.) and yeah, Norman influences to finish it off.

I'd say High Elves were second most popular after Greenskins for Fantasy - they made 2/5 starters to the Greenskins 3/5.

Lol, when your big argument is "IT'S A BUFFALO GUYS, NOT A COW, STOP SAYING ITS A COW!!!!" it sorta says it all.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not addressing the merits of it. But it is a cow, and it only makes someone look foolish to get mad because people don't give the Ymetrican Longhorn the due its Copyrightable Doublename deserves.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Lol, when your big argument is "IT'S A BUFFALO GUYS, NOT A COW, STOP SAYING ITS A COW!!!!" it sorta says it all.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not addressing the merits of it. But it is a cow, and it only makes someone look foolish to get mad because people don't give the Ymetrican Longhorn the due its Copyrightable Doublename deserves.

Being as I've never been interested in AoS, I'd never seen this model before, but, looking at it now...

Definitely looks like a Eldar got a little too friendly with some form of bovine.

Nah, it a BattleYak....don't talk back.

I like it but have zero interest in AOS so take that for what you will.

Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.

I mean they are basically cow looking things... And Kangoroo looking things.

Its fine if people like it. I don't have to.
But it still looks what it looks...

What was this thread about again?

 Kanluwen wrote:

For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.

Fascinating that you say that about Infinity. It doesn't seem to be accurate. Glad you've found a game you can enjoy though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

This part is a bit of an outlier though. Tohaa are still regarded as a garbage faction, as far as I'm aware, even with updated points and rules. Acon's power level scales with the fact that a good chunk of its items also are in Varuna or Military Orders.

Nah, people are winning tournaments and leagues with Tohaa, to the point where Vaul's got a bug up his ass about it. And Acon doesn't share many units with the other PanO sectorials, so you're off base on that one.

MRRF is also very viable right now, a friend has been labbing it lately.

 kodos wrote:
even if you let Sisters and CSM off here, you have 10-12 Marines VS 9-10 Xenos VS 12 Others

so 1/3 is playing a single faction, which is Marines, while 1/3 is playing various Xenos and 1/3 is playing non-Xenos/non-Marines

still would not call another Xenos player on of the herd

I would. You'd be in one of three herds.

Look, whatever you say, as a 3rd of the forces seeing regular play, the xenos as a collective whole are not underrepresented at this shop.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.

Assume that by the 2nd page, no topic is actually on the topic that was on the first page.

Thinking about asking a mod to lock this thread since it seems like it's pretty much a handful of people arguing about whether the sky is blue at this point.

I think you'll find the proper nomenclature is "Beefer of Secrets".

drbored wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.

Assume that by the 2nd page, no topic is actually on the topic that was on the first page.

Thinking about asking a mod to lock this thread since it seems like it's pretty much a handful of people arguing about whether the sky is blue at this point.

On the contrary, I think that the discussion of other war games was about possible alternatives to 40K given the waning interest caused by Space Marines.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is battle cattle.

" Are you being bothered by metal men ? Are battle cattle mooing ? Come and join up with me today ! "


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's "unrelatable to many" because in this day and age, people keep relying on garbage like Reddit or "lorehammer" videos.

FFS, in the initial preview video that had the Alarith? They did an in-depth lore bit, which even talked about the "Ymetrican Longhorn Buffalo" being the inspiration for the construct bodies. Yet people kept parroting the garbage spewed by neckbeards who just wanna hate on everything that isn't their precious Old World.

I can get why you get fed up with people saying you are bad or whatever description they use for you loving AoS lore. I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards " I hardly see how two wrongs make a right in this instance. I gave the lore of AoS a try and I didn't really care for it, even I understand it. Not my taste, and I don't consider myself a garbage spewing neckbeard because I don't like it. For me, it's too over the top for me to enjoy, though for those that do more power to them. I'm just saying, attacking people who like old world and don't like AoS doesn't really earn anything aside from more people happy to pick on it.

Yeah but at least Lumineth are a breath of fresh air regarding elfs, like it or not the models are awesome and its something that it was never seen, and are also getting another update soon

while eldar are rotting in '90 desing

I think it's fine not to like the aesthetic of the Lumineth. I like some of it, but the extremely over the top helmets are off putting to me and I think some of the designs for the weapons are silly.

But yeah, it's good to have another Elf Aesthetic on the market. I've put together a small force of Wood, High and Dark elves using a variety of manufacturers, and that will definitely be enough for me going forward.

 InVerno wrote:
like it or not the models are awesome

That is very much subjective. To me, large parts of that range are unsalvageable.

You're using pretty strong words which are reducing your point to "It's new so it's good and it's old so it's bad".
Ok.
Those old design are what managed to carry them up to this point. They just need to be modernised, not completely changed with space wales fighting on the battlefield "because space magic !".
Sister's designs are also from the 90's and it looks like one of the most popular range right now.

I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards "

I'm pretty sure he's specifically calling the people who spew inaccurate nonsense without reading the lore, that other people who haven't read the lore latch onto, and it all becomes a meme. "garbage spewing neckbeards". Don't think he has any problem with people who merely like the old world.

Rihgu wrote:

I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards "

I'm pretty sure he's specifically calling the people who spew inaccurate nonsense without reading the lore, that other people who haven't read the lore latch onto, and it all becomes a meme. "garbage spewing neckbeards". Don't think he has any problem with people who merely like the old world.

It's kinda hard to find the initial interest to read the lore when you're not interested in the game and/or the miniatures. And it's awkward to get upset when someone writes "cow" instead of "buffalo".

dhallnet wrote:
You're using pretty strong words which are reducing your point to "It's new so it's good and it's old so it's bad".
Ok.
Those old design are what managed to carry them up to this point. They just need to be modernised, not completely changed with space wales fighting on the battlefield "because space magic !".
Sister's designs are also from the 90's and it looks like one of the most popular range right now.

That's your opinion. Mine is that the reason I never ever ever got interested in WHFB even one tiny bit was I looked at it and went "yep. I know exactly what all that is. I've seen all of it a million times before, with the exception of a couple armies like Lizardmen and Skaven that have some legitimately interesting ideas. I know Shiny Knight on Horse. That is Vampire with Skeletons. That there is Dwarf with Hammer, and if I look for a minute - yep, there it is, Dwarf With Axe. Elf With Bow, Dragon, Dark Elf With Squiggly Dagger, the gang's all here."

40k was interesting to me because of its absurdity, because it had Space Warrior With Big Armor but...is he holding a sword and shield like a medieval fething knight? And is his sword also a chainsaw? I had played Flames of War with my dad, but when middle school me walked into my friend's house and the game they were playing looked like world war 2 soldiers fighting elves with laser guns whose nastiest scariest unit was...clowns? I was IMMEDIATELY sold.

Sure, fantasy doesn't need to be designed. It can be completely traditional forever, we can have invented dwarves with axes and elves with bows and medieval humans with swords and orks and goblins and trolls and ents and that is plenty of things, you could make models and games with those things in them forever with no real problem. Fantasy can be like zelda games were forever and ever, where the only real questions you had were "I wonder whether this time around I'll get the bombs first or the boomerang first?"

but I kind of like it when a fantasy setting goes all...fantastical on you. "These elves got really sick of the endless forces of evil and darkness coming and pillaging their magical cities and burning down their sacred forests, so they set up huge bubble dome cities under the ocean using their magic. Nice ravening hordes loser, hope you brought submarines." "These dwarves who always seem to be devising technological devices and gizmos that never really progress beyond the medieval setting have had a couple centuries to progress, and they've got guns and flying cities."

To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined.

dhallnet wrote:
You're using pretty strong words which are reducing your point to "It's new so it's good and it's old so it's bad".
Ok.
Those old design are what managed to carry them up to this point. They just need to be modernised, not completely changed with space wales fighting on the battlefield "because space magic !".
Sister's designs are also from the 90's and it looks like one of the most popular range right now.

You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games

Also, freaking resin

the_scotsman wrote:
[...]

I was talking about Eldar designs and how old != bad.
Ofc everyone have their own taste.

And about "To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined", there are multiple kinds of "fantasy" just as there are multiple kinds of "SciFi". These aren't monolithic genres and there was space for more magically, weird stuff in warhammer fantasy anyway (and some existed), they just couldn't be arsed to do them. Which is ok, what's done is done.

I'm pretty sure it's callrd a Moountain.

 InVerno wrote:

You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games

Also, freaking resin

Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.

dhallnet wrote:

 InVerno wrote:

You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games

Also, freaking resin

Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.

i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 InVerno wrote:

You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games

Also, freaking resin

Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.

i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.

It's mainly because of the pilot and the gunner (mainly the gunner), to get every weapons options and a build that make a bit more sense. There is a lot of space on these old sprues.
And it could be unified with DE/Harlies designs (or not, not a huge deal as far as I'm concerned).

dhallnet wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
[...]

I was talking about Eldar designs and how old != bad.
Ofc everyone have their own taste.

And about "To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined", there are multiple kinds of "fantasy" just as there are multiple kinds of "SciFi". These aren't monolithic genres and there was space for more magically, weird stuff in warhammer fantasy anyway (and some existed), they just couldn't be arsed to do them. Which is ok, what's done is done.

Honestly I wish eldar designs would go back to being crazier. They're extremely restrained now compared to what the Eldar were working with in the super early sculpts. The Jes Goodwin RT Farseer, the models wearing fancy lapelled david bowie V-neck leather jackets over space armor (throwback to when calling eldar armor "mesh" actually made sense!)

I recently got to resurrect a ton of ancient old harlequin models that had been carved up, probably by some kid in the 1990s who wanted to kitbash his models for whatever was the meta weaponry at the time, and it's incredible how safe every new eldar sculpt since I've started playing has been compared to even the most basic models from the RT era. The designers are like

"We want to refresh Wraithguard for the modern age, and we have this idea that some wraithguard are fething CRAZY and they give them giant swords and axes and they go bezerk and chop up enemy soldiers in fountains of gore because they're just so angry about their own deaths..."

"Well OK, but make sure each and every sword and axe looks exactly the same, make sure the shield is identical to the dire avenger shield because we have to keep lore consistency, and their poses have to be extremely bland and simple. No battle damage, definitely nothing that would suggest any of that craziness you mentioned, just keep them perfect and smooth and consistent and well-branded."

Meanwhile, I've got a beheaded version of the crewman from the heavy weapon platform and I decided to give him a Scourge head since that looked good with the model and I didn't have his original head in the lot, and I realized if I wanted to paint him up like David Bowie in the Ziggy Stardust outfit I didn't actually have to do anything to convert him to look like that, because he was already wearing that crazy 1980s deep v-neck space jumpsuit. Jes pre-wackied up the miniature for me.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 InVerno wrote:

You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games

Also, freaking resin

Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.

i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.

Pilots. Most eldar vehicle designs are solid. But crew is an issue. The same was true with the jetbikes when they were replaced. The original plastic jetbikes weren't bad, but the pilots were (I know I converted mine and replaced them with newer guardians).

Eldar vehicle design is stellar, it's proof of how ahead of their time they were that they still hold up 25 years later. It doesn't mean they couldn't do with a redo, with more detail or more multi-pose...how about actual ailerons on them, they're big enough to have poseable ones.Or less completely flat surfaces on the underside etc.

the_scotsman wrote:
<...>

I think we agree.
I like the new wraith sculpts but there is always this feeling that it's missing something, that it's a little too bland. And it's partially due to the poses and that uniformity.
As how all the farseers since 4th looks the same while warlocks all have their own thing going on (all but one got released before these farseers).

I'm not super fond of the oldest designs though, like how the tanks were in SM/TL for example.I much prefer how they were redesigned by FW. The cone heads with weird mouths are also something I wouldn't mind not seeing again.