Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

All victories are glorious victories for guardsmen!

That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.

Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.

 Stormonu wrote:
That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.

Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.

Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.

Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.

Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.

This.

In 40k terms it's:

There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!

But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.

Nope, that's only for the mostest bestiest UltraUltradeusexmachina

drbored wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.

Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.

Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.

This.

In 40k terms it's:

There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!

But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.

You are severely under-estimating the space marines here. Not only can any random chapter master beat a lord of skulls without breaking a sweat, but if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions. Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.

SemperMortis wrote:
You are severely under-estimating the space marines here. Not only can any random chapter master beat a lord of skulls without breaking a sweat, but if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions. Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.

As you have been thoroughly educated multiple times that this has absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened in the lore regarding Thrakka and Ragnar, I kindly ask you stop spreading lies on this topic. You are giving ork players a bad name if you continue to spread these untruths.

In case you are still confused about what actually happened in that particularly fight, I suggest you give one of the threads a look which you opened specifically to rant on this topic, despite not even having read the fluff.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
You are severely under-estimating the space marines here. Not only can any random chapter master beat a lord of skulls without breaking a sweat, but if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions. Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.

As you have been thoroughly educated multiple times that this has absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened in the lore regarding Thrakka and Ragnar, I kindly ask you stop spreading lies on this topic. You are giving ork players a bad name if you continue to spread these untruths.

In case you are still confused about what actually happened in that particularly fight, I suggest you give one of the threads a look which you opened specifically to rant on this topic, despite not even having read the fluff.

Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

drbored wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.

Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.

Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.

This.

In 40k terms it's:

There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!

But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.

This has always been a core contradiction at the heart of 40k, going back longer than just 8th or 9th.

At the end of the day, the Imperium has overwhelming might and advantages in men and materiel. They dwarf every other faction in terms of sheer numbers with the possible exception of the Tyranids. They have hundreds of thousands of potential planets that are purely focused on cranking out military goods on a constant and daily basis and hundreds of thousands more that are dedicated to churning out bodies. Even if a Space Marine chapter does get wiped out, they have excessive stores of gene seed and being an advanced spacefaring civilization can re-start and construct the infrastructure needed to have a fully operational Chapter again after only 20-30 years.

And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.

 Bosskelot wrote:

drbored wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.

Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.

Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.

This.

In 40k terms it's:

There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!

But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.

This has always been a core contradiction at the heart of 40k, going back longer than just 8th or 9th.

At the end of the day, the Imperium has overwhelming might and advantages in men and materiel. They dwarf every other faction in terms of sheer numbers with the possible exception of the Tyranids. They have hundreds of thousands of potential planets that are purely focused on cranking out military goods on a constant and daily basis and hundreds of thousands more that are dedicated to churning out bodies. Even if a Space Marine chapter does get wiped out, they have excessive stores of gene seed and being an advanced spacefaring civilization can re-start and construct the infrastructure needed to have a fully operational Chapter again after only 20-30 years.

Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?

 Bosskelot wrote:

And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.

because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive

 Esmer wrote:

Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?

the original chapter is gone but a new one is founded
if you go by the fluff the Imperium has no problem to replace a chapter and by the time the last Marine of the old one is dead the new one is ready to strike

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

 kodos wrote:
because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive

The Imperium is not a white supremacy empire, it is a human supremacy empire.

I doubt finer fluff details like this are part of a sales talk to get kids into the hobby. More something along the lines of "Space Marines are the heroic defenders of humanity and they are great for beginners, as we have several discounted starter sets on the shelf and they are easy to paint."

 kodos wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.

because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive

Sure. Easy sale.

Just tell them it's not a Star Wars toy glorifying devious terrorists that worship some ancient religion and continuously blow up government property and military heroes with suicide attacks.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.

because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive

Sure. Easy sale.

Just tell them it's not a Star Wars toy glorifying devious terrorists that worship some ancient religion and continuously blow up government property and military heroes with suicide attacks.

In my country you could go for that angle and just go ahead and include the first sales pitch as well and it'd be an easy sale as long as the box art and promotional posters didn't depict space marines in too many different skin tones. Which they generally don't so it's all good.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 kodos wrote:
because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive

The Imperium is not a white supremacy empire, it is a human supremacy empire.

without treating all humans as superior, just those that are in line with the official religion

I doubt finer fluff details like this are part of a sales talk to get kids into the hobby. More something along the lines of "Space Marines are the heroic defenders of humanity and they are great for beginners, as we have several discounted starter sets on the shelf and they are easy to paint."

Their part of sales is aimed in getting you to buy a 2 Player Starter Box and 1-2 cans of primer no matter what you want, if there would be no SM in the starter, they would not advertise them for beginners

yet you don't advertise your poster boys as the ones that would kill of the kids on the street if they are between them and their target

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

Death is, for some reason, required in order for the Primaris upgrade silliness to take hold.

 Dysartes wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

Death is, for some reason, required in order for the Primaris upgrade silliness to take hold.

The dumbest part of the 40k lore so far has been the Primaris lore.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

Death is, for some reason, required in order for the Primaris upgrade silliness to take hold.

The dumbest part of the 40k lore so far has been the Primaris lore.

Primaris lore:

"Oh no, [Named Character] died!"

"But then he got better."

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

Thanks for confirming that you have not read any of the fluff you are complaining about.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

Thanks for confirming that you have not read any of the fluff you are complaining about.

"he died" ok is he dead? no, therefore he didn't die. its like the fething monty python scene. "SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!...I got betta".

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?

Ragnar died.

If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.

Death is, for some reason, required in order for the Primaris upgrade silliness to take hold.

The dumbest part of the 40k lore so far has been the Primaris lore.

Stormcaste Restartes. The white powder must have been flowing bigly for GW corporate management when they came up with that, the current, grounding myth.

As for the Imperium of Man, or more wokishly Humankind, it had/has been and should ever be in decline, even losing contra the propaganda e.g. Regimental Standard style and any blurb you see about how Sphayz Mahreens are as strong as a hundred grots. The recent Cawlish turn to flying tanks and restartes with jump packs and autocannons is either heresy in universe or in real life, I.e. GW grey cells high on white powder is not exactly acting in good faith.

The only way for me to stay interested is to ignore GW’s self contradictions and wait for open community sourced rules drawing from older editions allowing if not encouraging also 3rd party miniatures.

 Esmer wrote:
Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?

That's why there's these things called "tithes".

All chapters submit part of their geneseed to storage. From these new chapters are founded and if need be old ones can be rebuilt.

If entire genepool stock is lost THEN chapter is lost. But losing every single marine AND entire stored genepool(which btw are not stored in chapter's own control...) is extremely unlikely scenario. Would require some serious planned operation to infiltrate Imperium to delete geneseed and wipe out every marine from chapter(likely spread among Imperium) all at once in short period of time window.

 kodos wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.

because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive

 Esmer wrote:

Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?

the original chapter is gone but a new one is founded
if you go by the fluff the Imperium has no problem to replace a chapter and by the time the last Marine of the old one is dead the new one is ready to strike

Excuse me what ? You do realize that the imperium isn't all white nor does it care of such nonsense ? Unless we are reading much different fluff I think the only thing they care about is every fights or everyone dies, man, woman, children, anything and everything that could be considered human and I don't much feel like they care about them so much as survival and conquest by whatever means possible.

SemperMortis wrote:
"he died" ok is he dead? no, therefore he didn't die. its like the fething monty python scene. "SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!...I got betta".

Instead of moving goalposts, you should just shut up and stop spreading misinformation on fluff you haven't even read just to satisfy your victim-complex. Go read or listen to the fething book instead.

You originally claimed this:

SemperMortis wrote:
if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions.

Ragnar neither matched nor beat Thrakka, he was crushed to death the first time, and Thrakka also killed parts of Ragnars honor guard during that fight as well.
The second time Ragnar was utterly outmaneuvered and outmatched and forced to retreat having suffered massive losses with nothing to show for it.

It also has been proven to you multiple times that Ragnar is as much "a named captain" as Thrakka is "a named warboss".

Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.

Ragnar did not come out of the duel alive. He literally died of the wounds inflicted on him by Thrakka. DED. They then put him in the magic +1 attack machine to revive him.

It's also worth noting that according to you, getting crushed and revived somehow doesn't count as getting killed, but getting decapitated and your head sown back on does. Double standards, huh?

TL;DR: Everything you wrote on this topic is dishonest and wrong.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
"he died" ok is he dead? no, therefore he didn't die. its like the fething monty python scene. "SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!...I got betta".

Instead of moving goalposts, you should just shut up and stop spreading misinformation on fluff you haven't even read just to satisfy your victim-complex. Go read or listen to the fething book instead.

You originally claimed this:

SemperMortis wrote:
if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions.

Ragnar neither matched nor beat Thrakka, he was crushed to death the first time, and Thrakka also killed parts of Ragnars honor guard during that fight as well.
The second time Ragnar was utterly outmaneuvered and outmatched and forced to retreat having suffered massive losses with nothing to show for it.

It also has been proven to you multiple times that Ragnar is as much "a named captain" as Thrakka is "a named warboss".

Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.

Ragnar did not come out of the duel alive. He literally died of the wounds inflicted on him by Thrakka. DED. They then put him in the magic +1 attack machine to revive him.

It's also worth noting that according to you, getting crushed and revived somehow doesn't count as getting killed, but getting decapitated and your head sown back on does. Double standards, huh?

TL;DR: Everything you wrote on this topic is dishonest and wrong.

Fluff, Ragnar duels the de facto leader of the Ork Faction. Ragnar decapitates Ghaz. Usually this is considered a win in a duel regardless of the NEAR mortal wounds suffered by Ragnar. Now you can argue until you are blue in the face that you are right and I am wrong but as you just quoted me I said ragnar dueled ghaz and decapitated him this in fact happened, and the other quote? I said you can "match" ghaz as a named space marine character. The irony is that you didn't prove that wrong at all, what you did do was launch a bunch of random personal attacks at me.

And just to slam home this point that Ragnar MATCHED Ghaz in the duel, This is from the author of the book, and I quote "You are correct. They both fought to the death, and they both knew, to one degree or another, how the fight was destined to end." https://twitter.com/David_Annandale/status/1246196414729895940

So unless you are saying you know more about the fluff than the guy who wrote it YOU ARE WRONG.

I used to respect your arguments on here, but of late I have seen you drifting more and more into personal attacks, red herrings, strawman arguments and its a bit sad honestly.

First of all, that twitter post actually proves you wrong and me right. Ragnar died. You are wrong, you lose.

Looking forward to your next post moving goalposts even further because you can't ever admit that you are wrong. Which is the main reason why I have stopped engaging with your arguments - which tend to be wrong quite a lot, as you are completely out of touch with both the game and its fluff and seem to get all your information from social media instead of hard data and primary sources.

 Jidmah wrote:
First of all, that twitter post actually proves you wrong and me right. Ragnar died. You are wrong, you lose.

Looking forward to your next post moving goalposts even further because you can't ever admit that you are wrong. Which is the main reason why I have stopped engaging with your arguments - which tend to be wrong quite a lot, as you are completely out of touch with both the game and its fluff and seem to get all your information from social media instead of hard data and primary sources.

Welcome back Jid, glad to see you still are arguing a dead point that proved you wrong So you are adding assuming to your list of logical fallacies I see. Or even better, you can argue semantics, "he died" except he lives, so are we using the understood definition of the word ***Monty Python Voice*** "it has ceased to be" or do you want to use the more nuanced definition of "he coded, stopped breathing, lost a pulse, but was resuscitated" It is irrelevant either way, hopefully you stop engaging more often.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=is+ragnar+blackmane+alive

"Though life had all but left his body in the battle's aftermath, Ragnar was rescued and borne across the Rubicon Primaris in order to revive him."

Ragnar is alive.