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Eldar are why I got into the hobby - still recall seeing the original releases from Rogue Trader days in WD and eventually in person so long ago and thinking wow those are cool designs.

Given the current state of the range/faction it is super disappointing. My fear is they will be squatted all together given the utter lack of any info for them in 9th ed.

Karol wrote:
Isn't the vyper much cheaper then the landspeeder, and there is already a two heavy weapon type of vyper from FW, and eldar players don't seem to be using those en mass.

The Hornet suffers from the FW wheel of random misfortune of points value, (and being a smidge on the spendy side), especially in 9th where the +1/-1 rule bites it hard, but both it and the Vyper lose out to the War Walker as it has a ++ save

The state of the CWE range is really poor, possibly even very poor indeed, I gave up on 40k around 2012 or so but still like to keep an eye on things, as relearning would be a stretch for my aging grey matter, and the only model that caught my eye was the jetseer, although I suspect they'd outchunk my Chapterhouse ones by some margin

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Interesting discussion(s).

If & when GW give CWE the 9th ed Necron treatment, I'll be there wallet in hand. Always wanted to collect a Biel-tan army since I was a kid but can't stomach the ancient models. Until that day, no thanks.

Same for me exactly, right down to the fondness for Biel-tan.

dhallnet wrote:
12 years old, it's not particularly long for GW. They were rather outdated aesthetically than old. No other range got a full update ten years after its creation as far as I can tell

11-12 years without a single release when your faction has about the same unit depth and metal-composition as oldcrons. They were entirely obsolete as a range.

Guess it was only a matter of time, but my sad little mind now has to make a comparison to Marines.

Please note, this is not an anti-Marine thing, but an observation about intended playstyles, and possible play styles.

Essentially, Primaris specifically have heavily encroached on Craftworld turf.

Eldar used to be the home of super specialisation. Aspect Warriors being their expression of it. Each squad as previously covered basically excels at one thing, and can’t really do much outside of that niche.

Yet Primaris have at the time of writing gained Eradicators (short ranged anti-tank), Infiltrators (sneaky, mobile HTH), Eliminators (Snipers par excellence), Aggresors (deleters of light and medium infantry), Inceptors (speedy and shooty). Plus others.

Those......those are Aspect Warriors on steroids!.

Eradicators do the job of Fire Dragons. Eliminators do the job of Rangers (they’re pretty much an Aspect in intent)
Suppressors do the job of Dark Reapers.
Intercessors are to Tactical as Dire Avengers are to Guardians
Aggressors do the job of Warp Spiders, trading mobility for resilience)
Infiltrators Reivers kinda combine Scorpions and Banshees

Sure, none of them get Exarchs. But with their native abilities, do they need them?

Craftworlds need to claw those roles back.

The state of the Drukhari and Craftworld armies is weird. Drukhari haven't had a single new unit added to the codex since the 2010 refresh, have only had failcast updated to plastic (and the Voidraven finally given it's first model), and actually lost units (everyone laments the named characters but we had 2 types of Haemonculus in 5th and the Trueborn and Bloodbrides are now gone as well leaving Wych Cults and Kabal without any elite units to choose from other than mercenaries, the_sotsman has covered why this is aweful). In the same space of time Craftworlds have had more model releases in total, actually gained 3 new units in the Wraithknight and Flyers (4 if you want to count Wraithblades as well) and not lost any units. Yet Drukhari still feels like a more complete and cohesive model range.

I think it's impossible to split the dissinterest in the model range from the player base and the state of the armies rules. I find it interesting that the Banshees and Incubi came out at the same time and both have been criticised for only being a mild update on their existing designs (I think that was a good thing, they both looked amazing already) but I see a lot more people buying and painting up the Incubi than I do the Banshees. Some of that is impending new codex for Drukhari but it's been going on for more than a year now, the difference I reckon is that when they came there was a notable difference in how the rules for the respective units were treated. Incubi got a minor improvement with their extra damage on 6's going from being Klaivex only to the whole squad while Drazhar got buffed into an absolute murder machine that also buffs Incubi (at this point I would say he was unarguably the best Phoenix Lord) making them a viable option and we've seen both units get buffed again with extra S and D in the previews and leaks for the new codex so are going to see even more people buying and using them.

In comparison Banshees were completely unchanged and gained absolutely nothing new leaving them in the godaweful position of being an elite melee unit with two strength 3 attacks each while Jain Zar actually got worse by having a really powerful defensive rule replaced with an incredibly useless anti horde ability. Nobody wants to buy an extremely pricey set of 5 models when they are objectively aweful on the table top. They've since had a slight buff to S4 with the update to Power Swords at the start of 9th but even so they still bounce of Marines and then die. At this point Necron Warriors are a bigger melee threat than they are.

This problem extends across the whole army where a lot of it hasn't had any significant stats update since 3rd ed other than the translation to 8th, we're at a position now where the Farseer is literally the only infantry unit in the entire army thats any good at it's assigned role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guess it was only a matter of time, but my sad little mind now has to make a comparison to Marines.

Please note, this is not an anti-Marine thing, but an observation about intended playstyles, and possible play styles.

Essentially, Primaris specifically have heavily encroached on Craftworld turf.

Eldar used to be the home of super specialisation. Aspect Warriors being their expression of it. Each squad as previously covered basically excels at one thing, and can’t really do much outside of that niche.

Yet Primaris have at the time of writing gained Eradicators (short ranged anti-tank), Infiltrators (sneaky, mobile HTH), Eliminators (Snipers par excellence), Aggresors (deleters of light and medium infantry), Inceptors (speedy and shooty). Plus others.

Those......those are Aspect Warriors on steroids!.

Eradicators do the job of Fire Dragons. Eliminators do the job of Rangers (they’re pretty much an Aspect in intent)
Suppressors do the job of Dark Reapers.
Intercessors are to Tactical as Dire Avengers are to Guardians
Aggressors do the job of Warp Spiders, trading mobility for resilience)
Infiltrators kinda combine Scorpions and Banshees

Sure, none of them get Exarchs. But with their native abilities, do they need them?

Craftworlds need to claw those roles back.

I would argue that the game has been moving towards specialists for a long time now across all ranges, generalists don't tend to work very well. Most armies now have units that are only capable of doing one job and even those that have units that can kit out for multiple roles are always built for the specific role the player needs them for (you don't mix melta's and flamers in Retributors for instance).

I don't see this as a bad thing so long as those units are given there own flavour, Aspect Warriors have lost this due to GW ongoing neglect.

Eradicators do the job of Fire Dragons. Eliminators do the job of Rangers (they’re pretty much an Aspect in intent)

Sure on the first. Not so much on the second. The small squad size doesn't really do the job and the las fusil is another role entirely.

Suppressors do the job of Dark Reapers.

Wellll...

Intercessors are to Tactical as Dire Avengers are to Guardians

Ok, seems reasonable

Aggressors do the job of Warp Spiders, trading mobility for resilience)

hmmm. Not really

Infiltrators kinda combine Scorpions and Banshees

Is this a joke?

Beyond eradicators and intercessors, I don't think this parallel works at all. Infiltrators and scorps/banshees don't overlap _in nay way_. Its just a basic gun unit that forward deploys, and pushes deep strike denial.

^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.

When the Banshees and Jain Zar got released separately I bought them. 10 Banshees and 1 Jair Zar.

Mainly because I like the models, but also because I want to start an Aspect Warrior focused army and I wanted to vote with my wallet as it were to get more.
But I doubt that many people would do the same.

Its not the rules that put people off Eldar (although of course they could be better) its the lack of models. I am certain of this.

How can any new customer be persuaded to start a new Eldar army when 75% of the range does not have a current plastic kit.
Hell they don't even sell the crappy resin models except via thier website.

Basically the ball is in GWs court. Put money into updating the Eldar range (like Necrons), then people will have a reason to buy.

 Imateria wrote:
^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.

I did indeed. My mistake!

I think the bafflement about why GW leave money on the table with Eldar come down to a couple of things.
I think the money people in the business don't have a clear idea about which factions will or won't sell well apart from Space Marines and nostalgia. So they are not super interested in the other releases, perhaps.
And I think the Design Studio is not that professional in how it works. If people in there are enthusiastic about something, it happens, if they are not, it doesn't. Seems to me like their scope for creativity has also been lessened somewhat by the demand to have this double-word naming scheme for most stuff to be IP defensible. I can imagine it is not as fun to work there as it used to be. So looks like nobody at the Design Studio wants to champion Eldar or has any ideas for them any more, so they are not getting updated because of that. Someone was keen on Genestealer Cults, someone finally got inspired about Sisters, but the Eldar seem to be less of a priority.

So maybe eventually one of them changes their mind, but I don't get the feeling they do this stuff out of a sense of what would be "fair" or which faction has been languishing the longest. They've often left factions to wither on the vine and rather than malice from the money men I think it's more likely lack of interest from the Design Studio that causes that.

One of the biggest appeals of Elves in any setting is that they are THE ELITE guys on the block.

They may be fragile and not have a hard punch but they surely feel like better than everyone else. You have that in LOTR, you have that in Fantasy. You don't have that in 40k.

Lets also mention the fact that Eldar, of elves, have only the pointy ears. Theres nothing in their fluff and fantasy that would appeal to normal elf fans, and I saw this time and time again when most of my elf-lover friends that don't touch eldars with a 10 foot pole, instead going for stuff like slaanesh demons, thousand sons, etc...


But at the end of the day if bald-pink miners with a rip-off of Alien fluff can receive two big plastic waves, nothing but GW stops eldar for receiving the same.

I kind of assume Eldar run into a few issues:

- GW isn't particularly inspired by them currently. The elf aesthetic is hard to really nail as we've seen through all the Sigmar experimentation and things like the Ynarri. I get the impression GW wants to really redesign the faction, but isn't exactly sure how.

- They're almost always competitive, meaning there's regularly large purchases of much of the range. Eldar are probably the poster boys for codex release > clear backstock. They've long been the "Spikes" faction and GW seems happy to keep that audience happy with strong rules until recently.

It's still baffling through. The range is ancient and looks super dated. I'm regularly surprised GW hasn't done more with them.

 LunarSol wrote:
I kind of assume Eldar run into a few issues:

- GW isn't particularly inspired by them currently. The elf aesthetic is hard to really nail as we've seen through all the Sigmar experimentation and things like the Ynarri. I get the impression GW wants to really redesign the faction, but isn't exactly sure how.

- They're almost always competitive, meaning there's regularly large purchases of much of the range. Eldar are probably the poster boys for codex release > clear backstock. They've long been the "Spikes" faction and GW seems happy to keep that audience happy with strong rules until recently.

It's still baffling through. The range is ancient and looks super dated. I'm regularly surprised GW hasn't done more with them.

Vehicles still look great, it's just the aspects and guardians (would love a less uniform look to them) that need new models.

I find it incredibly odd what GW has done to Craftworld Eldar. They used to be the 2nd most popular army after Space Marines. I think Tau took a lot of their thunder when they were released. As I recall, Eldar's main strength back in those days was their shooting (especially all the bright lances) back when you could explode a vehicle in one shot. Then came Tau with their railguns that made a mockery of everyone else's anti-tank. Their crisis suits also had the same move-shoot-move as eldar jetbikes. Combined with the fact that Tau were a fresh, new army, and then came the Drukhari refresh and Harlequin release, it just left Eldar in the dust.

It's still baffling to me though. I was one of those people who never made an eldar army because a lot of the units I liked were resin and the worst kind - fragile, slender, and designed as crisp/clean models (which GW resin is not really capable of maintaining). Look at Necrons in comparison. They were a newer army, had a complete redesign, received multiple new kits, then had what amounted to a 3rd redesign in the most recent release.

For such an iconic army, I can't understand why they haven't at least released plastic kits for the resin models.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
I find it incredibly odd what GW has done to Craftworld Eldar. They used to be the 2nd most popular army after Space Marines. I think Tau took a lot of their thunder when they were released. As I recall, Eldar's main strength back in those days was their shooting (especially all the bright lances) back when you could explode a vehicle in one shot. Then came Tau with their railguns that made a mockery of everyone else's anti-tank. Their crisis suits also had the same move-shoot-move as eldar jetbikes. Combined with the fact that Tau were a fresh, new army, and then came the Drukhari refresh and Harlequin release, it just left Eldar in the dust.

It's still baffling to me though. I was one of those people who never made an eldar army because a lot of the units I liked were resin and the worst kind - fragile, slender, and designed as crisp/clean models (which GW resin is not really capable of maintaining). Look at Necrons in comparison. They were a newer army, had a complete redesign, received multiple new kits, then had what amounted to a 3rd redesign in the most recent release.

For such an iconic army, I can't understand why they haven't at least released plastic kits for the resin models.

I think you're on to something with that, maybe not the first Tau book, but later editions. Also it's pretty easy to paint Tau to a nice standard, Eldar are quite tough for most people.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Aspect Warrior conundrum.

They, kinda like Marine Terminators, aren’t what they once were. They’ve lost their edge.
.

I disagree on that point. Termiantors are pretty good again.

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

Eldar aspects? Still T3 1W. Its just night and day.

Ielthan wrote:

Vehicles still look great, it's just the aspects and guardians (would love a less uniform look to them) that need new models.

Right. The vehicles look great. I'm talking about the Eldar people figures themselves. Good distinction.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
I find it incredibly odd what GW has done to Craftworld Eldar. They used to be the 2nd most popular army after Space Marines. I think Tau took a lot of their thunder when they were released

Eldar were top dogs in various forms throughout 3rd and 4th, both they and tau were equally outdated in 5th, and then 6th edition gave us the taudar.

So... perhaps?

I think it’s fascinating that we’re four pages in, and whilst peeps have different suggestions, we are all seemingly in agreement Craftworlds need some work.

That to me suggests that GW must be similarly aware there is a clear problem with the range. I just can’t conceive of them not seeing it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think it’s fascinating that we’re four pages in, and whilst peeps have different suggestions, we are all seemingly in agreement Craftworlds need some work.

That to me suggests that GW must be similarly aware there is a clear problem with the range. I just can’t conceive of them not seeing it.

Well don't forget some management in GW at some stage thought that AoS launch was a good idea


Which might be the issue; it could be that lower down staff or in different departments do see the issue; but the upper management or middle management don't see the issue; or don't see sales reflecting it or don't see a potential return on investment big enough to warrant a big update compared to other updates e tc... IT could be a whole mish mash of things that keeps causing Eldar to be put to one side.

Here’s some wild ideas. Please note I’ve no idea if these are at all practicable. Each is intended to reflect that when the Eldar take the field, they’ve a clear purpose, and some knowledge of what the enemy will do.

1. Some form of veto or swapping mechanism for the opponent’s secondary objectives.

2. Definitely, definitely Warlock Squad Leaders. They shouldn’t just be hanging around each other like they’re The Cool Kids

3. Perks to manouverability. Traditionally, Eldar are meant to be a frustrating foe - like trying to nail the ocean to the wall. The downside was when you got it wrong, the sea and your happy sack got nailed to the wall at the same time.

The whole GW studio is very insular and plays to the beat of its own drum. I have no doubt that plenty of people within it see no issue with the current state of the CWE range because there's a substantial portion of the company that assumes Space Marines are everybodys main army. Who cares if the space elves are languishing? They're not your main army, are they? Not even your second one since that's still Marines of some flavour.

Let's not forget that they were floored at the overwhelming demand for plastic Sisters of Battle because they couldn't conceive the army had any potential popularity because it's then-current range sold like dogshit. This was combined with absolutely nobody within the studio caring about the army either.

Of course that survey and the very obvious positive optics of actually having female models in your game (as well as seeing the success of female Stormcast) has probably opened their eyes a little. One can only hope that the tsunami of complaints and discussion online about the state of Craftworlds is not something they're blind or deaf to, nor the obvious strengths of it being a range very open to having a 50/50 gender split in its minis.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.

If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....

Dammit, now why'd ya have ta bring that up

Simple - if people want to complain about "Elves in Space" getting so little love (defined as three factions, plus three special characters in their own little bubble) - I'm going to point out that one of the other mainstay fantasy races in space has gotten a much worse end of the stick.

When you're doing worse than Halflings in Space and Ogres in Space, it feels a bit off when someone complains about "so little love" for pointy-ears in space.

And I'm not saying that Kraftwerld Eldar don't need some attention, but "so little love"? Please...

Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.

That would enable Eldar to have a bit of design space that hasn't been terribly deeply explored, as well as providing the means to both enable increased damage on their part (pulling units out of cover and/or into range) as well.as mitigating return fire (pushing units out of range or in behind cover).

Also nails the "damnit those space elves are annoying" bit as well

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.

That would enable Eldar to have a bit of design space that hasn't been terribly deeply explored, as well as providing the means to both enable increased damage on their part (pulling units out of cover and/or into range) as well.as mitigating return fire (pushing units out of range or in behind cover).

Also nails the "damnit those space elves are annoying" bit as well

Aahh- the Pavane of Slaanesh- a Masque + six heralds, each leading a six-strong unit of Daemonettes. They dance, EVERYBODY dances- including your enemies. Good times...

 Imateria wrote:
^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.

Specially considering how often both options gets used.

I disagree on that point. Termiantors are pretty good again.

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

The DA and DG termintors are good. The other not so much, and a lot of armies don't even have 3W termintors. 1ksons, csm and GK have them a 2W, but costing as if they had 3.

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.

The Lash of Submission was a very abusive psychic power back in its time. There is something very unfun about abilities which let your opponent move your models.

Karol wrote:

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

The DA and DG termintors are good. The other not so much, and a lot of armies don't even have 3W termintors. 1ksons, csm and GK have them a 2W, but costing as if they had 3.

Eldar profiles were outdated even in 8th, now they're just a joke. And the Incubi profile they showed a while ago shows they're still committed to keeping eldar as T3 1W infantry, even though the rest of the game has passed that by completely. So I wouldn't expect that Aspect Warriors are going to move up from bargain basement garbage any time soon either.