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 Easy E wrote:

Were the Sardaukar using a laser late in the film? I think that was that man-portable beam thing, but I am not sure. I do not recall any of that scene from the book. Was it a new addition?

Yes, that was a Lasgun and yes they do appear in the books.

Sadly we did not get to see one cook off on a shield, but that should hopefully come in part 2.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
On Sardaukar - they are elite. They are all elite. Other houses might have a regiment of comparable troops. Those guys can fight toe to toe with equal numbers... but you other house troops just die and the Sardaukar outnumber your elites.

Hebert's handling of military matters and combat is probably the weakest point of Dune.

Fremen supposedly thrash Sardaukar. Because they grew up on a harsher planet.
Paul beats an above-average Fremen (Jamis) so badly that Stilgar and other observers think Paul is toying with him. Paul here is a skinny 15-year old described as being small for his size with significant training, but why would his training be vastly superior to that of the Sardaukar? It's not suggested in the text that his skill or victory is related to his Kwisatz Hiderach status. The passage in question specifically points to his training.

Gurney and Idaho (just two men) supposedly training the Atreidis force to being on a cut below the Sardaukar. The Sardaukar are an institution. They've been doing this for some time and yet two men can just train up a bunch of randoms to a near-comparable level in a few years? What?

The internal logic is questionable at best, but the larger issue is that this has zero relation to how warfare or individual combat skills are developed in the real world. Historically, more "barbaric" cultures may have produced better one on one warriors, but they have almost always faltered against trained and disciplined soldiers from more "civilized" societies. The zealotry aspect of the Sardaukar and Fremen (God created Arrakis to train the faithful) is rooted in reality, but the actual soldiering is not.

Even if the Fremen were superior, a 5 to 1 kill ratio is obscenely absurd. Hebert completely failed to make the Sardaukar seem elite. They're an army of Worfs that exist solely for the Fremen to punch out while onlookers marvel at their greatness.

trexmeyer wrote:

Fremen supposedly thrash Sardaukar. Because they grew up on a harsher planet.

Well, and they disable their shields with the destruction of the shield wall - Sardaukar are shield trained fighters, Fremen aren't and ensure the battle is fought on their terms.

Paul beats an above-average Fremen (Jamis) so badly that Stilgar and other observers think Paul is toying with him. Paul here is a skinny 15-year old described as being small for his size with significant training, but why would his training be vastly superior to that of the Sardaukar? It's not suggested in the text that his skill or victory is related to his Kwisatz Hiderach status. The passage in question specifically points to his training.

Gurney and Idaho (just two men) supposedly training the Atreidis force to being on a cut below the Sardaukar. The Sardaukar are an institution. They've been doing this for some time and yet two men can just train up a bunch of randoms to a near-comparable level in a few years? What?

You miss the 'amazing people' trope in Dune. A swordmaster is a peerless military man, in a galaxy of trillions there are only a handfull - not every great house has one who can claim that title. Thufir Hawat is a master Mentat - a group of people superior to supercomputers, he is above them and comparable to an advanced AI. Bene Gesserit witches can control their bodies own biological processes and control others with their voice and training. Etc etc. Almost the regularisation of superhero level people. Atriedes had through various means collected some of the most amazing examples of these rare people together in one house and it was having an outsized effect. Plus of course spending massive amount of Solaris. The few years is also i think decades in the books, remember everyone important has massively extended lifespans.

And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?

trexmeyer wrote:
And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?

He has received one on one training from the greatest warriors known to man at that period of time. In Dune logic that makes you amazing.

Your criticism seemed to be based on real world consequences not the internal logic of the novels/world (and whether or not it is consistent).

Adding in BG and Mentats (and the master mentat) was to further highlight the use of supermen in common roles - their powers far outstrip the rest of humanity and it was an attempt to further illustrate the the point around their being this superior impossibly skilled class, compared to even elites like Sardaukar who themselves rip through the Atriedes infantry and I believe in the book ultimately collapse a mountain on them? But they are still chaff before the *insert superhumans here*.

Paul is of course the ultimate superman of his age, having the capacity to absorb Mentat, Swordmaster and BG training, while normally only the most gifted could understand one discipline.

Meant to ask this days ago, but what the hell was that thing in the Harkonnen's throneroom that the Bene Gesseret lady dismissed?

 nels1031 wrote:
Meant to ask this days ago, but what the hell was that thing in the Harkonnen's throneroom that the Bene Gesseret lady dismissed?

Bene Tleilax creation maybe, there is also a fan theory that it is made up of parts of Yueh's wife...among others.

 Elemental wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote?

Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....

I always wondered, who was the first person who decided to try and eat dried sandworm dung?

Well, it looks and smells/tastes like cinnamon, so it's not like it's unpleasant. There are Earth lifeforms that people eat that would seem like much harder sells unless one was very, very hungry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?

He has received one on one training from the greatest warriors known to man at that period of time. In Dune logic that makes you amazing.

Your criticism seemed to be based on real world consequences not the internal logic of the novels/world (and whether or not it is consistent).

Adding in BG and Mentats (and the master mentat) was to further highlight the use of supermen in common roles - their powers far outstrip the rest of humanity and it was an attempt to further illustrate the the point around their being this superior impossibly skilled class, compared to even elites like Sardaukar who themselves rip through the Atriedes infantry and I believe in the book ultimately collapse a mountain on them? But they are still chaff before the *insert superhumans here*.

Paul is of course the ultimate superman of his age, having the capacity to absorb Mentat, Swordmaster and BG training, while normally only the most gifted could understand one discipline.

The Fremen were also taught the weirding way, which added skill and polish to their ferociousness, zealotry and desert fighting experience. They weren't just sand barbarians at the time of the battle for Arrakeen. Sure, we can argue about the appropriate amount of time needed for real-world advanced martial arts to proliferate across a fighting force. But that seems like placing unusual demands upon a piece of fantasy literature. It would probably be better for people to just say they don't like the story -- which is fine and honest -- rather than engage in what seems like bad-faith arguments about story details.

The problem is that Dune is ostensibly science fiction. Gorgon just referred to it as fantasy. I agree that it is essentially a fantasy novel dressed up as science fiction.

If it's not science fiction, then the Sardaukar getting their asses beat by old men, women, and children at the end of the first novel doesn't matter. The Fremen are awesome, Arrakis made them awesome, and Paul made them even more awesome. I think it's incredibly lazy writing to introduce a force that is supposedly elite and then have them be routinely curbstomped. Ultimately, the Sardauker don't matter to the greater story. They're just a plot device. Edit: Specifically a plot device to illuminate how awesome the Fremen are in comparison. The entire novel people shake at the word Sardaukar and marvel at the fact Fremen can beat them.

If it is science fiction, then the Fremen v Sardauker power gap is illogical and absurd. As are most things described about prescience, genetic memory, and various BG body control abilities, i.e. the weirding way, the voice, etc. It's absurd because if one human is capable of something, thousands more are capable of coming extremely close. Hell, we even get introduced to a failed Kwisatz Hiderach in the novel.

A real world example. A specific tribe from Kenya dominates marathons. They almost always win at this point. The difference between the current Men's WR, set by a Kenyan, and the Australian Record, a WR set in 1981, is just seven minutes. It's a huge gap at that level, but the percentile difference is small. It's just 5 percent faster. That's with an ideal background, skeletal structure, possible genetic lung advantage, etc. The gaps between the best of humanity across the globe are small. The idea that some group like the Fremen would exist and be forged into fighting elite by their living conditions is absurd by all real world standards.

Herbert was inspired to write Dune by an article on ecology. Ecology is a major theme of the novel. One aspect of that theme is how ecology shapes people. In this case, he is arguing that Arrakis has shaped the Fremen to be harder men than any others in the galaxy. I agree, and it's painfully obvious, that ecology shapes culture and some cultures have more of a warrior ethos than others, but the power gap he is describing for close quarters combat has never existed in history and never will between the actual "elite" forces.

Edit: I can dislike an aspect of a story and still like the story as a whole. Dune has some very interesting aspects to it concerning the nature of prophecy, cultural norms, religion, elitism, etc. The military aspect of the story is amateurish.

The concept of the shields and shield fighting is mostly just because Herbert wanted to have cool sword fights in his sci fi book. It is silly, but it's a conceit for a certain tone.

I think it's more disappointing that the choreography for those fights was a bit limp overall. Just gangs of people running at each other in boring costumes and then blue and red flashes. Nothing much to write home about. Not much of a fan of Zak Snyder, but he could have directed those fight scenes in a much more dynamic and interesting way to show off how you have to come in slow and only accelerate at the last second to get through the shield, because as it was done it really makes it look like it's either random or that the shields are just overcome with force rather than skill.

The action in the movie was generally pretty dull. Only the fight at the end was any good I thought. Luckily, it's not really an action movie and it does a lot of other stuff well enough that I still enjoyed the movie a lot.

There is mention in the appendices that the Sardaukar have regressed somewhat from their peak by being arrogant, complacent and not actually having fought any battles in a long while; they’re still better than House conscripts, but not an army that have been literally fighting a war for their lives for best part of a century.

In the end, Dune is not military sci-fi. It doesn't focus on it, it's only purpose is to further the plot and underscore the themes. it's science-fiction in the same way War of the Worlds is- it describes a future/alternative reality, but it does not strive to make a 100% accurate prediction of how everything would work, cause..that makes for very bad stories.

 Pacific wrote:
It depends what your definition of 'absolutely necessary' is though ccs.

There's only 1 definition. It's a simple Yes/No equation.
Either you can navigate through space without spice (YES), or you cannot (NO).
And we already know that in the Dune universe the answer is (YES). It is slow & dangerous.

The spice is simply a massive advantage. Hence why controlling it is so important.

ccs wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
It depends what your definition of 'absolutely necessary' is though ccs.

There's only 1 definition. It's a simple Yes/No equation.
Either you can navigate through space without spice (YES), or you cannot (NO).
And we already know that in the Dune universe the answer is (YES). It is slow & dangerous.

The spice is simply a massive advantage. Hence why controlling it is so important.

It's a yes/no question but it goes deeper if you want it too

Basically within the Dune setting for most of the political powers and many of the various worlds, its not a case of "well we can go back to slower space travel." The world are so heavily interconnected that it would destroy most systems of governance, economies, trade, food supplies, resources, materials - everything pretty much breaks. Some worlds would come out ahead; others would collapse very swiftly.

In broad terms its a functional no if you want to retain the system of governance and trade that's established within the setting at the time.

About the only faction we meet in Dune who doesn't share that feeling, are the Fremen. They have no ideals of leaving their world and generally consider outsiders to be nothing but problems. They are very self reliant.


Spice, at the time of Dune, isn't simply a massive advantage, its the foundation upon which everything runs. It would be like modern day humans losing electricity. Yes we'd survive, but almost everything would collapse very swiftly.

I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.

 Jadenim wrote:
There is mention in the appendices that the Sardaukar have regressed somewhat from their peak by being arrogant, complacent and not actually having fought any battles in a long while; they’re still better than House conscripts, but not an army that have been literally fighting a war for their lives for best part of a century.

Sardaukar basically Janissaries (with an absurd training premise- that if you train criminals and psychopaths in hellish conditions, you get better soldiers rather than psychological damaged and broken ones. They're also on various drugs and unleashed on populations, much like the original concept for Space Marines, which is where GW got the inspiration from. Herbert at some point describes his take on the psychology of it, that you basically buy their loyalty by assuring them they're superior at it was all worth it to create the best of the best... which works, but only to a point.) And like the Janissaries, they were exceptional for their time, and had little political power, but the structures involved fell apart over time. We don't ever see that point, but its the logical conclusion.

Herbert also chases the hellscape=better soldier logic at the end of Dune, where Paul promises the Emperor that he'll make Salusa Secundus (or whatever their training world is called) a beautiful place where only soft things grow (or something like that), reinforcing the idea that hard planets make better soldiers and soft places make for poor ones. [Something not reflected in any modern military organization- people trained in the various hellholes around the world are fairly crap soldiers (when they can even be called that).

Cronch wrote:
In the end, Dune is not military sci-fi. It doesn't focus on it, it's only purpose is to further the plot and underscore the themes. it's science-fiction in the same way War of the Worlds is- it describes a future/alternative reality, but it does not strive to make a 100% accurate prediction of how everything would work, cause..that makes for very bad stories.

Basically. Pure 'science' fiction is largely a myth, anyway. At some point they author starts fudging some aspect of the ships, or combat or the social sciences (cough...psychohistory...cough) or whatever.
Mostly I think the 'bad stories' aspect comes in when the writers starts focusing on the technobabble over human relationships. There's only so many pages of mythical engine & space travel predictions before the whole thing turns to slurry.
[And that's before physicists and whatever point out why that concept wouldn't even work).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.

That's a fairly apt comparison. Anabolic steroids can increase muscular size and strength with minimal effort, particularly with heavier doses and specific steroids. You would get the best results with proper nutrition, recovery, and training. Other steroids are used to benefit recovery. Those are the ones abused more in skill sports where sheer mass is a negative (weight classes for fighting, sprinting, endurance sports), and strength is of secondary concern. It's widely accepted by those familiar with steroids and their applications that special forces are making use of some steroids to some degree. Mainly because it wouldn't make sense to not use that advantage.

Spice is shown to improve prescience and bodily awareness, but that is specifically with BG/Mentat training. The Fremen could potentially get some benefit from spice without specific training, but that's not explicitly stated in the books.

None of that really addresses raid at the end of the book.

Pretty sure there's something about burning the attackers with ship engines or something, not that the kids and old folks are physically beating them off with sticks. More a trap/ambush.
Anyway, that's the least important aspect of that entire reference- its there for the

Fremen don't so much "regularly use" Spice, it's just IN everything around them. Their coffee has it, their food has it, they have fabrics made from it (spicecloth was a thing in the books). They're fed it from the first time they can have it after being born. It's also why they had no dreams of leaving Arrakis. The spice is an addictive poison, one must always have it after a certain point, or it the lack of it kills you, so leaving Arrakis wasn't really an option for most of them.

I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I prefer my heroes to have a decent match from time to time as long as the heroes themselves are decently trained. Otherwise they should look like a fumbling idiot.

——-

The 2nd time I watched Dune we thought the traitorous doctors plan made no sense. He gave the person he betrayed a powerful poison to use at any time. Had he not been killed right before it’s possible he’d have died with just about everybody in that room save the duke because of superpowers and plot armor and that’s if they don’t find out he set to betray them too. It was like 2 separate plans that don’t work together (I’m gonna save my wife and put the lynchpin to a separate plan in the hands of someone that kinda wants me dead for my betrayal. This plan could never fail. Forget the possibility I’ll likely die anyway if the duke lets me live somehow because then my master would just gas us all to death) unless it was plan b if the duke killed him but why would your previous master accept something that doesn’t benefit him. Anyway that plan was Badly thought out. Still fun tho. Maybe the books handle it in a less stupid way.

In the book Yueh is fairly convinced that his wife is already dead, but he wants to make absolutely sure that she is free from Piter’s torture; he never intended to live (/knew that he wasn’t going to survive), he just wanted to ensure his wife wasn’t suffering anymore at any cost.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I suggest you brace yourself for the transition from book 3 to book 4.

 Baragash wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I suggest you brace yourself for the transition from book 3 to book 4.

That's unfortunate. At least in the first movie i sorta get some of the things. For instance Paul's training could've killed him multiple times and even when finally getting the upper hand he only managed to tie with his trainer ("joined him in death if it was real"). So he clearly has training and had the Voice used on him and manipulated him as well as being sort of in the middle of the schemes of many others and being used by others.

In Star Wars i think that was part of the problem when they went in without training and were super special. I suppose i should get a bit annoyed at Jedi Academy for that but despite being mary sue or gary stu. If the good guy is always super powerful at least we should make their friends, family and romantic interests vulnerable to attacks from enemies. That or if they're super strong maybe make them someone that can be out-thought through planning.

Ofc we have the other problem where if everybody beats the main character then they take away what makes the main character so good.

--------

Anyway i'm liking this so far. Poor Paul is in over his head through much of this. He wants to go on adventures but he doesn't want to be a Chosen One and he definitely doesn't like the fanatical devotion he will eventually have with the Fremen.

--------

As far as criticism goes my cousin and I were curious how a Head Medical Doctor was able to sabotage things he likely had no knowledge of even if he had access to them (shields and communications). In the Matrix (another chosen one story) for example the betrayal made more sense at least to me. I'm willing to excuse the Doctor's sabotage somewhat due to possibly having other people help him through this.

What really bugged me however was the movie's version of the plan. He gave the person he betrayed a special tooth with poison gas so even if he was to live and get what he wanted then why would Paul's father let either the Baron or the Doctor to live. Something about the way the movie laid out the plan felt incredibly stupid like it wasn't thought out very well. Typically the medical doctor should've had an end goal where he got what he wanted. Like it'd have made more sense if the Doctor had the poison gas tooth in his mouth in case he was killed by the Baron. In that case the Doctor would've had full control over that discussion instead of screwing himself regardless of what decision was made.

Eh. Security measures for Lords and their blood family are pretty intensive. The movie does a good job of depicting that. Yueh knew that he couldn't get close to the Baron. He never would, he wasn't that trusted. It wasn't unreasonable to expect that the Baron would gloat over a drugged-up Leto and the scene makes some more sense in the novel as he and de Vries are also interrogating Leto about the escape of Paul and Jessica.

I think the weaker part of the betrayal is that Yueh was stupid enough to go along with it. His wife was either dead or going to be killed. There is zero possibility that she is ever restored to him. In the novel he accepts that, but wants his revenge so desperately that he betrays House Atreides anyway.

I read a fan theory somewhere (maybe Quora? maybe Dakka? I honestly don't remember) that it wasn't the Harkonnens who broke the Suk conditioning, but Dr. Yueh's wife. She used BG techniques to bind Yueh more closely to her, and that is why the thought of her being tortured was enough to get him to betray the Atreides. This is just fan theory, though, and not canon.

 gorgon wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote?

Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....

I always wondered, who was the first person who decided to try and eat dried sandworm dung?

Well, it looks and smells/tastes like cinnamon, so it's not like it's unpleasant. There are Earth lifeforms that people eat that would seem like much harder sells unless one was very, very hungry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?

He has received one on one training from the greatest warriors known to man at that period of time. In Dune logic that makes you amazing.

Your criticism seemed to be based on real world consequences not the internal logic of the novels/world (and whether or not it is consistent).

Adding in BG and Mentats (and the master mentat) was to further highlight the use of supermen in common roles - their powers far outstrip the rest of humanity and it was an attempt to further illustrate the the point around their being this superior impossibly skilled class, compared to even elites like Sardaukar who themselves rip through the Atriedes infantry and I believe in the book ultimately collapse a mountain on them? But they are still chaff before the *insert superhumans here*.

Paul is of course the ultimate superman of his age, having the capacity to absorb Mentat, Swordmaster and BG training, while normally only the most gifted could understand one discipline.

The Fremen were also taught the weirding way, which added skill and polish to their ferociousness, zealotry and desert fighting experience. They weren't just sand barbarians at the time of the battle for Arrakeen. Sure, we can argue about the appropriate amount of time needed for real-world advanced martial arts to proliferate across a fighting force. But that seems like placing unusual demands upon a piece of fantasy literature. It would probably be better for people to just say they don't like the story -- which is fine and honest -- rather than engage in what seems like bad-faith arguments about story details.

I don't think it's a bad faith criticism to make note of the fact that the story lacks any kind of credible antagonist(s) that seem to pose any threat to the main character's infinite, instant perfection in seemingly any area. Certainly, people didn't think that was any kind of a bad faith criticism when applying it to another well-known fantasy space opera series that came out recently...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I suggest you brace yourself for the transition from book 3 to book 4.

That's unfortunate. At least in the first movie i sorta get some of the things. For instance Paul's training could've killed him multiple times and even when finally getting the upper hand he only managed to tie with his trainer ("joined him in death if it was real"). So he clearly has training and had the Voice used on him and manipulated him as well as being sort of in the middle of the schemes of many others and being used by others.

In Star Wars i think that was part of the problem when they went in without training and were super special. I suppose i should get a bit annoyed at Jedi Academy for that but despite being mary sue or gary stu. If the good guy is always super powerful at least we should make their friends, family and romantic interests vulnerable to attacks from enemies. That or if they're super strong maybe make them someone that can be out-thought through planning.

Ofc we have the other problem where if everybody beats the main character then they take away what makes the main character so good.

--------

Anyway i'm liking this so far. Poor Paul is in over his head through much of this. He wants to go on adventures but he doesn't want to be a Chosen One and he definitely doesn't like the fanatical devotion he will eventually have with the Fremen.

--------

As far as criticism goes my cousin and I were curious how a Head Medical Doctor was able to sabotage things he likely had no knowledge of even if he had access to them (shields and communications). In the Matrix (another chosen one story) for example the betrayal made more sense at least to me. I'm willing to excuse the Doctor's sabotage somewhat due to possibly having other people help him through this.

What really bugged me however was the movie's version of the plan. He gave the person he betrayed a special tooth with poison gas so even if he was to live and get what he wanted then why would Paul's father let either the Baron or the Doctor to live. Something about the way the movie laid out the plan felt incredibly stupid like it wasn't thought out very well. Typically the medical doctor should've had an end goal where he got what he wanted. Like it'd have made more sense if the Doctor had the poison gas tooth in his mouth in case he was killed by the Baron. In that case the Doctor would've had full control over that discussion instead of screwing himself regardless of what decision was made.

He knew his wife was dead. The end goal was killing the Baron, which he knew he would have no chance to get close enough to do...

Although....wait...in the movie, didn't the baron fething slit his throat HIMSELF? that's a departure if so, lol, and kind of defeats him having to go thru with betraying his buddy...I'm fairly certain in the book the whole reason was "I'll sacrifice my best bud the duke because i'm pretty sure the baron's hatred of him is personal enough that he'll want to get close and gloat, whereas with me he's 100% just going to have one of his minions stab me and I wont get within 100 feet"

In the movie version, he might as well have just thrown a whole grill of poison teeth into his own mouth and just been like "heck, guess Ill wait for the baron to come right up to me and slit my throat!"

 the_scotsman wrote:

I don't think it's a bad faith criticism to make note of the fact that the story lacks any kind of credible antagonist(s) that seem to pose any threat to the main character's infinite, instant perfection in seemingly any area. Certainly, people didn't think that was any kind of a bad faith criticism when applying it to another well-known fantasy space opera series that came out recently...

Yeah but THAT one had tits. And the sheer volume in the difference in criticism says everything.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.

Sure, I guess, but that also doesn't stop you from preserving even a tiny bit of dramatic tension by not portraying the Sardaukar as complete dinguses from the get-go.

You could literally have just added a few more of the basic Harkonnen Ork Boyz in to the various scenes where the Sardaukar are getting cartoonishly merked and you could have easily preserved the dramatic tension of "how is Paul going to use his magical white boy protagonist energy to whip his society of ethnic pals into fighting shape to take these Big Bad Asses on?"

they literally pulled the same exact gak the new star wars movie did with their ultra-badass "NOT YOUR DADDY'S STORMTROOPERS" opening scene where they like...shoot some unarmed villagers or something, and then they just go back to being slapstick mooks who die in 2 seconds.

Sure, maybe Karl Drogo is the best sword fighter in the whole galaxy super ultra badass 1 in trillions very very good at sword, but he's got one little knife, a shield, and nothing and he's up against an unlimited number of dudes wearing full space armor. Just use the Harkonnen ork looking melon-fethers as the disposable mooks and then have a team of Sardaukar come in fighting in some kind of elaborate roman legionnaire style formation where there's absolutely no way one guy with no protection is getting any kind of a hand on him, and carve him up.

Then you could just go on with the rest of the scene with them starting to cut through the door with a lasgun and them having to run away.

maybe just once I want to see a suit of space armor in a movie be effective at anything. In Rogue 1 a stormtrooper literally gets bonked in the helmet with a stick and, apparently, dies.

Sigh. Does a topic have to always come back to political reasons?

Rei (spelling?) wasn't trained even a bit. Paul was trained. Also i don't think Rei ever really lost a fight excepting that one time with Snoke and he died immediately after from a stupid thing he should've seen coming via mind reading his apprentice.

People can be ok with female protagonists like Lara Croft and Alita. Part of it makes more sense like if they were trained before.

You guys are totally spot on with the weirdness of the Fremen though if using ancient shield tactics. Ofc in current day ambush and hit and run tactics do handle really elite forces though that is with modern weapons.

I assume this would make infinitely more sense if Fremen were more of a raiding force that hit weak positions with minimal enemies rather than built up shield wall armies.

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I have my criticism of Dune as a movie like the scene i mentioned.

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Back for a bit. Something my cousin pointed out is the defenses against the enemy ships were slow while the enemy had all those fast missiles. Not to mention when they decided to land and fight the sword wielding atreides in hand to hand rather than missile them to death from the safety of their ships. It’s not like the bloodthirsty baddies were worried about friendly fire or civilian casualties. Perhaps they wanted to know if Paul, his mom and father were all dead or would be dead soon and confirming someone blown into hundreds of pieces along with many others becomes hard to tell if they got him. Ofc if they’ve given up pursuit of Paul for being lost in a sandstorm then why not also scrutinize something this much.

Also why didn’t they fully prepare for an invasion? Did they merely think assassination attempts were all the enemy would do?

I had fun with the movie but It wasn’t a military tactics masterpiece. I suppose it couldn’t be as bad as the elves jumping the dwarves spear line in the 3rd hobbit movie without the enemy charge impaling the elves on the dwarves spears somehow.

Maybe I’m more forgiving because I’ve only seen one dune movie rather than 9 episodes of Star Wars or 6 of lord of the rings and the hobbit.

There were rules for feuds between the major houses in the Dune universe. Kanly. These rules restricted which measures could be used (Going against these restrictions could see sanctions brought on your house by the Landsraad - which was comprised of all the great houses).

Things like using nukes against your opponent (forbidden by convention - and sanctions could be applied from the guild for transgressions).
Paul pulls a "technicality" when he uses the Atreides nukes against the shield wall in the book. Although the Harkonnens likely had troops in the mountain areas, he used the nukes against a natural formation, so as to let a major sandstorm through into the city. The static forces in the storm neutralised the Emperor's forces shields.